Their not in Heaven Yet....

[Littleboy]

Hi Everyone,
I'm sure this will start another heated Debate...
Here's some Scripture that Backs me up on this...
John 5:
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
 
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

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John 6:

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

HAS the Last day came YET? NO!

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1 Corinthians 15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

THIS HAS'NT happened YET!!
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Revelation 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

THIS has'nt happened Yet!
Who shall be left to raised from the dead, if we all go to judgment when we Die?
There not in Heaven YET, Thats a LIE..I think this scripture CLEARLY shows the Truth of the Matter....

The Bible does tell us of a few that have Ascended to Heaven, Like:
Enoch, Elijah, the 500 or so souls that the Lord brought out of Hell with him and walked the streets of Jerusalem for about a month...
YLBD

[Soldier4Christ]

Yes, this is a subject that has caused some considerable debate. It shouldn't reach the point of being all that heated though and it can be an excellent and beautiful study for those that wish to delve into it.

We know that the Bible does not contradict itself, that the only contradictions that man can find there are those conceived in their own minds and not ones that actually exist. We also know the verses that you gave are factual. Yet we see Paul telling us in 2 Cor 5 that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Through the gathering together of all of these verses on this subject and studying them in this manner this either means that when we die we immediately leave the fleshy body and are with Him or our souls sleep in that fleshy body until He comes to call us home.

Now consider this difficult thought. How can we be there in the fleshy body, asleep until He calls us home at the resurrection and still be absent from the body and with Him immediately?

Herein lies a miracle and a mystery to our meager understanding. Let us contemplate time for a little bit. What is time? It was designed by God for mankind. It is measured by the sun and moon. (Gen 1:14, Psa 104:19  ) In heaven there is no need for the sun or moon. (Rev 21:23 ) In the spiritual world there is no sun or moon. There is no time as we know it here on earth, in this world. There is only eternity. An immeasurable foreverness. Time will not matter.

Can we fathom this? If you are like me it is an overwhelming thought and one that is difficult to consider but that is the way many things are with God that only He can fully understand. Time is a stumbling block to many. It is the cause of non-believers to not comprehend a young earth and fall into the teachings of an old earth and old universe as it is their understanding of the speed of light versus time that causes this lack of understanding. When God created the heavens and the earth the laws of time and speed of light did not and still does not apply to Him. When He spoke those words "Let there be light" then light was where he wanted it and when He wanted it to be. It did not take the time of billions of years to get there.

In this world there may be thousands of years from the time a persons fleshy body dies and the time the Lord comes. Yet in the spiritual world it could be immediately, in the twinkling of an eye.

This is a difficult thing not only to understand but to explain also and perhaps my explanation is not the best one or the clearest. After all our minds are finite in their understanding where God is the opposite and all knowing and He can do things that we may never know or understand in this world. Does this make any sense to anyone else yet?

[Littleboy]

How can a Christian that has been fed to the Lions and eaten by several of them even have a FLESHLY body in the 1st place?
Or the ones that was used for human torches or the ones that have been creamated ? they have NO Flesh to rest in?
IS their any Flesh on those that have been in the seas for 1000's of years?
By what your saying: Everyone has there OWN Day of being Ressurected and given that body when they die,
That just ain't true Brother...
A Great number of people are gathered before him at the same time, NOT, one at a time as they die..
Also, If that was the case WHEN JESUS gives his SHOUT to call us, WE would go alone And not be called UP WITH
Those that are in the grave, seas, ect. ect. TOO MEET in the Clouds...

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation..

This has'nt happened YET
I would think that just this would be enough to convince someone, AND do you really think that GOD would allow those that have died to watch the Evilness that is going on in the Earth & what evil their loved ones might be doing?
NO WAY, AND theirs NO Scripture that Backs that UP, Unless someones found some LOOPHOLES..
YLBD

[Soldier4Christ]

No that isn't what I am saying. It goes back to the time question and we perceive it in our human mind and how it is not in the spiritual world.

As i said it is a very difficult concept to understand. Yes, we will all be resurrected at the exact same moment in time. Again, what is time? It is something that we are restricted to in the physical world. Time does not exist in the spiritual world.

[Littleboy]

Yes, we will all be resurrected at the exact same moment in time. Again,

By this statement do you agree then, That no one has been Ressurected yet then?

I'm alive in christ and i'm waiting to be called too meet those that have died in christ already in the Clouds..

I still don't understand what time has to do with people NOT being in Heaven Yet?
Your making this more complicated than what it is With this "Time" thing...

As far as a "time", IT will be in the End as God has said... not as one dies...
Circumsize your Hearts so you can understand WHAT the Spirit Says...
If you apply your spirit to the matter and not what you've learned from man or your own imaginatiions it becomes alot clearer..

Try reading those verses with your Heart and not your mind, It is what it says, Has'nt happened Yet....
It's only contraversial if someone does'nt believe those simple verses below...
And why? Big deal our Loved ones ain't their Yet!
Why does this offend so many people???
Sounds like a bunch of Democrats that baffle(BLIND) themselve with their own STUFF!
I Mean NO disrespect with my comments to anyone,
I just wanted to clairify the truth about this, and now you all know it, It's up to you if you want to believe it or not?
Your Loving Brother Duane




 

[ibTina]

interesting..... also I have always wondered about this passage too....

Matthew 27: 52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;  and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

[HisDaughter]

Yes, this is a subject that has caused some considerable debate. It shouldn't reach the point of being all that heated though and it can be an excellent and beautiful study for those that wish to delve into it.

We know that the Bible does not contradict itself, that the only contradictions that man can find there are those conceived in their own minds and not ones that actually exist. We also know the verses that you gave are factual. Yet we see Paul telling us in 2 Cor 5 that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Through the gathering together of all of these verses on this subject and studying them in this manner this either means that when we die we immediately leave the fleshy body and are with Him or our souls sleep in that fleshy body until He comes to call us home.

Now consider this difficult thought. How can we be there in the fleshy body, asleep until He calls us home at the resurrection and still be absent from the body and with Him immediately?

Herein lies a miracle and a mystery to our meager understanding. Let us contemplate time for a little bit. What is time? It was designed by God for mankind. It is measured by the sun and moon. (Gen 1:14, Psa 104:19  ) In heaven there is no need for the sun or moon. (Rev 21:23 ) In the spiritual world there is no sun or moon. There is no time as we know it here on earth, in this world. There is only eternity. An immeasurable foreverness. Time will not matter.

Can we fathom this? If you are like me it is an overwhelming thought and one that is difficult to consider but that is the way many things are with God that only He can fully understand. Time is a stumbling block to many. It is the cause of non-believers to not comprehend a young earth and fall into the teachings of an old earth and old universe as it is their understanding of the speed of light versus time that causes this lack of understanding. When God created the heavens and the earth the laws of time and speed of light did not and still does not apply to Him. When He spoke those words "Let there be light" then light was where he wanted it and when He wanted it to be. It did not take the time of billions of years to get there.

In this world there may be thousands of years from the time a persons fleshy body dies and the time the Lord comes. Yet in the spiritual world it could be immediately, in the twinkling of an eye.

This is a difficult thing not only to understand but to explain also and perhaps my explanation is not the best one or the clearest. After all our minds are finite in their understanding where God is the opposite and all knowing and He can do things that we may never know or understand in this world. Does this make any sense to anyone else yet?

Perfect sense!  That's the best I've ever heard it explained.
So following your reasoning, if I am, then when we die - since spiritual time is not the same as human time - Armageddon may have already taken place.

[Littleboy]

interesting..... also I have always wondered about this passage too....

Matthew 27: 52-53
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;  and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Hi Tina,
This happened when Jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day with many other people he brought out with him and many people witnessed this happening for about a month...
YLBD
P.S
If people keep trying to Annalize what God is saying by reading one or two verse at a time, you'll never figure it out...
Keep the whole chapter & what's going on in mind and you should be able to understand it better...

[Littleboy]

IF people start thinking that armeggedon has allready happened I'M OUTTA HERE!
The word of God is what it is and the verses i 've given are Quit Clear! I THOUGHT?
The Lord did'nt tell us to follow sensable Doctrine, BUT to follow SOUND Doctrine...
Show me some Scripture at least 1 that says their allready in Heaven,
I've only given you a few that back what i'm saying up and i have more of Gods Words About it...
I want to see Gods Words about this, Not Mans, Please...
YLBD
Remember that ALL this is being written down in the books and they will be opened and people will be Judged By them... so be careful Brothers & Sisters...

[Soldier4Christ]

Perfect sense!  That's the best I've ever heard it explained.
So following your reasoning, if I am, then when we die - since spiritual time is not the same as human time - Armageddon may have already taken place.

I think that you at least understand the complexity of this.

IF people start thinking that armeggedon has allready happened I'M OUTTA HERE!
The word of God is what it is and the verses i 've given are Quit Clear! I THOUGHT?
The Lord did'nt tell us to follow sensable Doctrine, BUT to follow SOUND Doctrine...
Show me some Scripture at least 1 that says their allready in Heaven,
I've only given you a few that back what i'm saying up and i have more of Gods Words About it...
I want to see Gods Words about this, Not Mans, Please...
YLBD
Remember that ALL this is being written down in the books and they will be opened and people will be Judged By them... so be careful Brothers & Sisters...

I see that you don't have the idea. Keep in mind that this physical world is not the same as the spiritual world. Things are completely different. There are no days, nights, weeks, months, years in the spiritual world, it is simply eternity. Whereas the physical world is constrained by time. Let me ask you some questions that may clarify what I am saying.

Do you believe that God is restrained by time?

Do you believe that there are no contradictions in the Bible?

How can the verses that you gave and the following verses be reconciled ( understood to be in agreement ) ?

 Luke 23:43 - The promise of Jesus that the thief who repented would be in Paradise with Him that same day.

2 Cor 5:8 - Paul clearly says that to be absent from the body (ie death) means being present with the Lord.

Phil 1:23 - Paul desired to depart (from this life through death) and be with Christ in Heaven.

1 Thes 4:13-17 - note vs 14.Jesus, when he returns from Heaven will bring the Christians with Him that have died. ie Believers that have died are currently in Heaven with Jesus and He will bring them when He returns

Heb 12:23 - specifically says that the spirits of righteous men are in the New Jerusalem (Heaven) already.

Rev 6:9-10, 7:9-14 - We see that those who have died during the tribulation are then seen to be in Heaven before the throne.

[Littleboy]

Do you believe that God is restrained by time?
Answer:
I think God is restrained to the things that he has put in a certain order....
So in a way, Yes i believe he is constrained to certain things until  ALL things are Fulfiled for his purposes,
Jesus said that "A day is a 1000 yrs & a 1000 yrs a day with God, True their is no end of time with God,
Hense the word "Eternity" . OTHER than that, NO GOD is not restrained of ANYTHING...ALL is done @ his will & timing.

Do you believe that there are no contradictions in the Bible?
Answer:
Absolutly! Their are NO contradictions in his Words to us,
I take every single word that is in it LITERAL & as Truth, Not just the words that make me Feel Good...

How can the verses that you gave and the following verses be reconciled ( understood to be in agreement ) ?

 Luke 23:43 - The promise of Jesus that the thief who repented would be in Paradise with Him that same day.
Answer:
By using this verse: Luke 23:43 - The promise of Jesus that the thief who repented would be in Paradise with Him that same day are you saying that the Lord did'nt Fulfill Prophecy, By not being in the Belly of the Earth for 3 days? That's what i get out of that verse, By itself
As we all know, Jesus Did'nt even ascend to Paradise until after the 3rd day, That's why his disciples was'nt allowed to touch him until he ascended, Then, as you know they were allowed to touch him when he came back, but Thomas was'nt their and you should know the rest of the Story about that?
What I get From the Whole Story is Because of his Faith in that Jesus was/is the Son of God, And that faith he showed on the cross had just saved him (that day), And I'm sure he was one of them that the Lord Brought out with him too...

2 Cor 5:8 - Paul clearly says that to be absent from the body (ie death) means being present with the Lord.
AMEN! I can't wait to be with him Physically not just SPIRITUALLY!

Phil 1:23 - Paul desired to depart (from this life through death) and be with Christ in Heaven.
Same as 2 Cor 5:8 above...

1 Thes 4:13-17 - note vs 14.Jesus, when he returns from Heaven will bring the Christians with Him that have died. ie Believers that have died are currently in Heaven with Jesus and He will bring them when He returns
Answer:
I'm sorry but you err in your interpitation here Brother, The Raptured Church, the 144,000 & those that died instead of taking the Mark of the Beast WILL reign with the Lord for those 1st thousand years, then Satan is let loose to gather from the 4 corners of the Earth & Gog & Magog too for 1 last time to come against us at Jerusalem and Fire
from God out of Heaven will Devour them... The Bible Clearly say's that the rest of the Dead does'nt live again until after this and that these will have no powers, but that they will live in the new Jerusalem with God And never leave it.
While others will Clearly go outside and fish & whatever else that God has for us, Things we can't even Imagine!


Heb 12:23 - specifically says that the spirits of righteous men are in the New Jerusalem (Heaven) already.
Answer:
Another Err, the New Jerusalem shall decend from Heaven and the waters that flow from it shall heal the land
and the Dead sea where man will fish..

What? How do you get people have already died and have risen from the dead by this?
 Heb. 12:23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Rev 6:9-10, 7:9-14 - We see that those who have died during the tribulation are then seen to be in Heaven before the throne.
Answer:
If you'll notice in Rev. 6:9-10 you see that"The souls(NOT Bodies) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"  These people have clearly been slain(KILLED), Not just died of natural causes and such as our families have died from, These ain't our relatives that have already died, if thats what you mean, by thay one..

Rev. 7:9-14
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Answer:
Our families that have died allready have nothing to do with those that have came out of the great tribulation that
man is about to go through

I Hope this Helps you in determing if I know what your talking about or Not?
And as far as this being Complexed, it's Not at All to me Brother and
I still hav'nt seen ANY Scripture to say otherwise...
YLBD

[Soldier4Christ]

I see that you do understand what I was saying even if you don't realize it.

If you'll notice in Rev. 6:9-10 you see that"The souls(NOT Bodies)

The portion of your statement that i highlighted says it all. As for that where you said that I erred is a matter of opinion on who has erred that I will not argue with you over.

[Littleboy]

All i can say Roger is I Love you as if you were my own Brother, and that won't change because of this...
In the End, we'll all know the truth and it won't matter anyway, Right?
I did'nt mean to cause any strife between us, I just wanted "anyone" to see it as it was revealed to me by scripture
when i was a little boy. (12 to be exact) You can believe me when i say, i've looked for other scripture that would show me othewise too.
YLBD
P.S
We are to clairify the word of god by one another at least by 2 & not argue the word of God,
Man i must be dumb, i didnt even realize we were arguing, I'M SORRY..

[Soldier4Christ]

None of this will change my thoughts or feelings toward you either. All is as it has been ... love in the Lord as it should be. It is easy to get carried away with a subject that a person is passionate about and what better subject to passionate about than Jesus. Getting carried away in such a manner does not make one dumb.

You can believe me when i say, i've looked for other scripture that would show me othewise too.

2Cor 5:1-10 is the best study on this subject. Paul is talking about the difference between the physical body (our earthly house) and the spiritual (a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens).

[Littleboy]

God Bless You, Spoken like a true Brother would, I Thank You for that...
Whats to bad is it's to hard to know ones meanings and how to express ones self properly in this kind of forum
without being misunderstood or misunderstanding someone else sometimes...
YLBD