The pre-wrath rapture

[Royo]

I know you all have had many discussions on the last 7 years, and the time of the rapture. I will not go into ALL the scriptures about it, for I have a whole writing on it, which is too long to post here. But I would like to share a few scriptures to show that the Rapture is sometime after halfway through the 7 years, and not before the 7 years begin. Then you may believe, or not. To me, there can be no doubt that the following scriptures give the truth about it.

[Daniel 9:27]. "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;" [7 years]."but in the middle of the week, [halfway through the 7 years], he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate."

[Matthew 24:15]. "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place."
You should be able to see that this "abomination of desolation" spoken of here by Jesus is what Daniel says will happen "in the middle of the week" (halfway through the 7 years).
And note that Jesus says "standing in the holy place."

[2 Thess. 2:1-4]. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and ourgathering together to Him,(the rapture), we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either be spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
The "Day of the Lord" refers to the wrath of God, in the trumpets and the bowls, but this says, "as if the day of Christ had come." And we can see, from the way Paul refers to "our gathering together to Him" that this is refering to the rapture. And, since this "gathering together to Him" will not occur until the antichrist steps into the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, as shown in verse 4, which Jesus spoke of as the "abomination of desolation....standing in the holy place", which He says was spoken of by Daniel the prophet,  and Daniel says this happens in "the middle of the week," then the rapture cannot take place until after the "middle of the week."  I could go on with 5 more pages showing you other scriptures to prove this, but I just ask you to pray, and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal this truth to you, and "lean not on your own understanding."

God bless you all......Roy.

[Royo]

One little add-on here.
Some will say that it is not that important if we know the approximate time of the rapture, but I disagree....
First off, God saw to it that so much about it would be in His Word, so that must be so we would learn about it for a reason.
Second...I hear so many Christians saying almost the exact same thing; "we don't need to worry about it, cause we won't be here." That is a lie....we will be here for at least 3 1/2 years of those 7 years.
Those who say we will be raptured before the 7 years begin think the "seals" are part of God's wrath, and they are not. They keep the "scroll" that is the wrath of God sealed until it is time for His wrath to begin. Notice that after the 6th seal, it says, in Rev. 6:17, "for the great day of His wrath has come." (if I say the the 'time has come' for me to look for a job, it means I have not not looked yet, but the time to do so 'has come'.]. And after this 6th seal, we have chapter 7 in Rev. which has the sealing of the 144,000 jews, and the rapture of the church. Then the wrath begins when the 7th seal "is loosed", in chapter 8, and the wrath begins with the trumpets, and, according to Rev. 15:1, the bowls are "the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete."
What started in the trumpets, is "completed" in the 7 bowls.

[nChrist]

Royo Said:

Second...I hear so many Christians saying almost the exact same thing; "we don't need to worry about it, cause we won't be here." That is a lie....we will be here for at least 3 1/2 years of those 7 years.

Hello Brother Roy,

It certainly isn't a lie at all, rather just a different opinion than your own. I won't debate this issue any more, but I will say that there are many threads already on the forum with highly detailed information. I feel that overwhelming evidence indicates a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but you are most welcome to a different opinion.

I'll add that other real Christians disagree with both of us, and their opinions aren't lies either. I think you are wrong, but I certainly wouldn't call your opinion a lie. The same would be true for other varying opinions about Bible Prophecy.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 55:10-11 NASB  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

[Royo]

Dear brother Tom.
Bless you for your response.
I very much know that there are many other opinions, and that is fine. That does not bother me...I accepted that long ago.
The only thing I said was a lie, was to say that we don't need to worry about it. I think whether you belive it to be as I have stated, or another theory, we do need to take seriously those last 7 years, and be spiritually prepared for what may come.
I apologize if I did not state that as well as I should have.

Again, God bless you all as you seek Him with all your heart...Roy.

[Shammu]

Roy I once believed that the Rapture, would happen mid way through the  tribulation.  I have found evidence that has changed my mind.  You might like to read Paul2's threads, on the Rapture.

Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture pages

Paul2 vs. Petro's Pre-Wrath Rapture Pages

Paul2's Pre-Tribulation Rapture pages

All these link are on the forum.

[Soldier4Christ]

There are many opinions on this and I personally will not go into mine as I believe that it is not something that we should argue about or that should cause division in the body of Christ. I will say what the Bible tells us that is of utmost importance:

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What day and hour is being spoken of? The time in which the Lord returns to gather His elect. Whenever that time may be we must watch and wait and stay strong in the Lord to whenever that end is for us. We must be ready to endure whatever lays in the way of our path.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Eph 6:10  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

[Shammu]

I will say what the Bible tells us that is of utmost importance:

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

What day and hour is being spoken of? The time in which the Lord returns to gather His elect. Whenever that time may be we must watch and wait and stay strong in the Lord to whenever that end is for us. We must be ready to endure whatever lays in the way of our path.

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Eph 6:10  Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

AMEN

[Kathy]

Matthew 24 speaks of the second coming not of the rapture. Up to Rev. chapter 3 the church is spoke of, but after chapter 3 begins chapter 4 where the church is no longer mentioned. What has happened to the church after chapter 4? Did God just forget to mention the church or did something happen to the church? Chapter 4 begins with John saying After this I looked and behold a door was opened in heaven. After what? If something didn't happen why did John say after this?
Blessings to you
Kathy

[Royo]

It seems many things can be discussed here, except this.
The one person I respect the most here has said I am calling people liars, (I did not say that, as I tried to explain, and apoligized if not stated rightly), and the other says I should not argue, and cause division with this issue..(I did not know I was...I was just stating what I feel the Lord has shown me).
But I do HATE to debate with anyone, so I will post no more....

goodbye friends, and God bless you.

[Soldier4Christ]

I never said that it could not be discussed. I simply said that I would not do so other than to make the point that I did, which seems to have been missed completely.. This is the very reason that I dislike going any further than I did because so many get upset so quickly like this and go off hurt or angry for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

I really don't understand your getting upset since I agreed somewhat about what you said as to why it is important.

As for calling someone a liar you clearly stated that in your second post of this thread about individuals that don't agree with your own statements.

"we don't need to worry about it, cause we won't be here." That is a lie....we will be here for at least 3 1/2 years of those 7 years.

[LeRoy]

You are perfectly correct in what you have written brother Royo. I also believe and teach the prewrath doctrine.
 
I believed in the pretrib doctrine for years, but could never understand where a lot of the pillars of the doctrine came from. I had many questions but no one including the pretrib scholars could answer. They did answer but their answers were, and are, assumptions and not found in the bible.

The only place that clearly tells us that we will be here when the great tribulation starts is 2 tess. 2:2... The pretribbers uses an assumption to force fit that passage to their doctrine.

John was told to write what he saw and he saw elders, beasts, a lamb, and God on his throne. He also saw a sea of glass like crystal in front and around the  throne but he did not see untold millions of raptured saints. Were they invisible? We are told that after the rapture we will always be with the Lord but John didn't see us?

Later he sees a multitude of folks on that sea of glass and they are supposed to have been killed by the antichrist at a time when God has put a great deception on earth?

Peter warned the church to be ready in the last days because they were going to face a fiery trial.

1pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing haphappenedned unto you:

1pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

All end time prophecy fits perfectly with a chronological order of the seals,  trumpets, and bowls, and the pre and post doctrines must shift the order of events in order to make them fit  their doctrine. I would not dare change one thing in the book of Revelation, or Matthew 24.
The sixth chapter of Revelation and Matthew were both given by Christ and they are parallel passages. The apostles celebrated the first Lord's supper the following night after the Matthew 24 was given to the church the day before. So the apostles were the first fruits of the church.

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Christ cuts the Great tribulation short by rapturing the church and ending the Great tribulation short. The antichrist has no one against him except those hiding in Petra.

The pre trib doctrine teaches that the wrath of God begins at the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week but the bible does not support that teaching. The Lord alone is exalted when the wrath of God begins. The devil begins gathering up his deamons and armys to fight the Lord when he returns at the end of the seventieth week. The antichrist is active during the fist half of the seventieth week and at the mid point of the week Satan enters the antichrist and the great tribulation begins.

Believe the order of events just like they are written and be sure that all passages will fit smoothly into a straight chronological order of the seals, trumpets, and bowls. The bowls are against the world and not against Israel, and they are powered out on the naions after the seventieth week ends. Christ willl be on earth during the pouring out of the bowls.
I wellcome any and all attempts to disprove the prewrath doctrine.
PS: The wrath that the church is not appointed unto is God's wrath and we are going to have to endure Satan's wrath during the great tribulation.
 I have only presented a crumb of information, and could write many pages on the end times, but I am a very old man and don't like to argue with people that puts doctrines ajead of truth.

[Royo]

Pastor Roger....
I greatly respect you, and want you to know I was not hurt or angry, or upset. And, yes, I did say that when people say that we should not worry about it, they lie. I said I was refering to Christians who had said this to me, not anyone on this board. But perhaps I should have worded it differently, which is why I appologized after that for wording it that way.
And it was not because they disagree with me about the timing, but because they say we don't need to worry...that is what I said...and never mentioned them disagreeing with me about timing.
   As to what you said here...
There are many opinions on this and I personally will not go into mine as I believe that it is not something that we should argue about or that should cause division in the body of Christ.
I did not see that I was arguing, or trying to cause division in the body of Christ.....I was simply stating the Truth, and whether others agree or not...that is between them and God. But I must obey Him, and put forth that truth.
It does not bother me at all if others do not agree...that is the right our Father gave us, and I will respect that, and not get upset or angry when they do not. But I will not fail to obey Him, just for the sake of unity. He did not, and His disciples did not.
And please do not mistake 'passion for truth' with upset or anger, for I feel neither of those. I love and respect you and Tom very much, though I may not know you well...but I see your love for our Lord, and that is all I need to know and love you.
So I will put behind me this thread, as I hope others do, and let us fellowship in love for our Lord.
God bless us all....Roy.

[nChrist]

It seems many things can be discussed here, except this.
The one person I respect the most here has said I am calling people liars, (I did not say that, as I tried to explain, and apoligized if not stated rightly), and the other says I should not argue, and cause division with this issue..(I did not know I was...I was just stating what I feel the Lord has shown me).
But I do HATE to debate with anyone, so I will post no more....

goodbye friends, and God bless you.

Roy,

It looks almost impossible to misunderstand, so I'll conclude it was a badly played game on your part. Under these circumstances, it probably would be difficult to have a discussion with you, so goodbye and God bless you also.

[nChrist]

Hello Leroy,

HUM? - What a coincidence. See the links in reply number 4. I've already said that I won't debate this again. Maybe someone else wants to. Have fun.

[ibTina]

We ALL LOVE Jesus and want to be with Him ASAP!!!  Whatever the 'appointed time' may be .. as the Holy Scriptures tell us.. no one knows the time, day, hour etc... only The Father. So for every opinion on the 'rapture',  maybe ALL are wrong.

I LOVE you ALL!!! GOD BLESS!!!!!