Parents who spank being made criminals

[Soldier4Christ]

Parents who spank being made criminals 
Democrats advance plan calling for probation, protective orders

Democrats on a legislative committee in California have advanced a plan that would make criminals of any parent who uses "a stick, a rod, [or] a switch" to discipline their misbehaving child, and parents rights' organizations are up in arms.

"This was a bad day for parental rights in California," said Karen England, of Capitol Resource Institute.

"Arrogant California legislators have decided … they know how to raise children better than parents. However, we are confident that California parents will make their voice heard and defeat these despicable bills," she said.

The proposal is AB755, a plan by California Assemblywoman Sally Lieber, D-Mountain View, that is billed as a plan for "corporal punishment."

But it does more.

"AB755 biases police officers, social workers, district attorneys and juries to regard traditional methods of child discipline as hateful, harmful abuse," said Randy Thomasson, president of the Campaign for Children and Families.

"This irresponsible committee has passed a very irresponsible bill. Since juries already have broad authority to convict and sentence child abusers, AB755 is unnecessary. The real purpose of the bill is to transform good parents who use traditional methods of discipline into suspected child abusers in the eyes of the law," Thomasson said.

According to the bill, a parent who spanks their child will be placed on probation for four years, forced to attend a "nonviolent parental education class" and be the subject of a criminal court protective order "protecting the victim from further acts of violence."

Among those testifying before the Assembly's Public Safety Committee against the plan were constitutional attorney David Llewellynof Sacramento, Thomasson and others.

As amended by the committee, the penalties for parents who even use a bedroom slipper to swat an unruly child would be subject to being reported and prosecuted on the word of any police officer or social worker, counselor or member of the clergy, opponents said.

"The inclusion of a 'nonviolent parental education class' reveals that AB755 continues to target loving parents who spank with a switch, paddle, a stick, or other traditional child-rearing methods," according to a statement from opponents. "Existing law already allows judges to order convicted child abusers into 'a child abuser's treatment counseling program.' There is no reason for a 'nonviolent parental education class.'"

Speaking against and voting "no" on AB755 were Republicans Greg Aghazarian of Stockton and Joel Anderson of El Cajon. Voting "yes" on AB755 were Democrats Jose Solorio of Santa Ana, Hector De La Torre of Southgate, Fiona Ma of San Francisco and Mark Leno of San Francisco.

"Parents and grandparents are calling upon Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to veto AB755 if it reaches his desk," said Thomasson. "Because this bill biases authorities against parents who spank, AB755 continues to view good parents who lovingly correct their children as suspected child abusers."

"Parents often use a wooden spoon or ruler to spank their children. This legislation actually bans the use of 'a stick, a rod, a switch, a belt' – tools often used by responsible parents in spanking disobedient children," England has said on the issue. "As a parent, I am angered that the government is declaring my disobedient child 'a victim' and intervening in the raising of my children."

The original Lieber plan created "a 'rebuttable presumption' that when parents discipline their children, they are abusers," said Meredith Turney, CRI's legislative liaison. While that has been modified, the plan still should be unacceptable to Californians, she said.

"Discipline is used to protect children from disobedient behavior that could harm them. It is appalling that the government is treating parents like criminals when there are dangerous sexual predators on our streets," she said.

As WND reported earlier, officials with the Campaign for Children and Families described Lieber's bill as a specific attack on parental authority, providing an outright ban on spanking with a utensil such as a spoon, and leaving it up to judges to decide if spanking with an open hand is legal or not.

Thomasson said it's clear that child abuse needs to be prevented. But it should be handled separately. "Legitimate child abuse provisions in this bill, such as 'vigorous shaking of a child under the age of three,' deserve to be in another bill and completely separated from spanking," his group said earlier.

The proposal already has been dissected in the media. Before its introduction, the Contra Costa Times said the bill, "is completely unenforceable. Are we to expect a 2-year-old to dial 911 and report a parent for swatting him or her on the behind?"

The editorial took a straightforward shot at the issue.

"With all of the pressing problems facing our state, what issue has the knickers of our esteemed lawmakers in such a twist? What burning concern has the ponderous pundits on the cable news shows frothing at the mouth?

"Global warming? Plunging real estate values? Good-paying jobs being shipped off to India every time you turn around? Maybe the governor's new health care proposal?

"None of the above.

"The latest meaningless, national distraction, is a silly bill proposed by Assembly Pro Tem Speaker Sally Lieber, D-Mountain View, that would make it a crime to spank any child 3 years old or younger."

The editorial's suggestion? "Get real."

[Brother Jerry]

I just cannot comment on this.  Not yet...need to take a breath.

[David_james]

Yes make spanking illegal! The butt is no different then other body part.

[Brother Jerry]

Sorry David...on this I will have to disagree with.  The last thing we need is for kids to now see that their parents get in trouble for disciplining them.  Their behavior will do nothing but escalate. 

I know that if I saw my mother have to go to before a judge and was put on probation, which to me would have meant that if mommy does that again she gets in even more trouble...then I would have pushed buttons until I could get her to do it again.  And I was not a trouble maker as a youth.  But there were times that I took a belt to the back side.  And you can bet that whatever I took it for...I did NOT do it again.

And I have seen far too many children in the world today that have been given no discipline and they run rampant all over their parents and have no respect for authority.  This is a law that I would be fighting. 

[David_james]

Sorry David...on this I will have to disagree with.  The last thing we need is for kids to now see that their parents get in trouble for disciplining them.  Their behavior will do nothing but escalate. 

I know that if I saw my mother have to go to before a judge and was put on probation, which to me would have meant that if mommy does that again she gets in even more trouble...then I would have pushed buttons until I could get her to do it again.  And I was not a trouble maker as a youth.  But there were times that I took a belt to the back side.  And you can bet that whatever I took it for...I did NOT do it again.

And I have seen far too many children in the world today that have been given no discipline and they run rampant all over their parents and have no respect for authority.  This is a law that I would be fighting. 

There are other forms of punishment. However you make a good point. Maybe I was spanked more than I deserved.

[Soldier4Christ]

I have to disagree also. Here in this state we already have Child and Family Services getting involved with parents that attempt to discipline their children. Now we aren't talking about beatings that leave bruises. That is what I, too would call abuse. That would be overdoing the punishment. A swat on the behind now and then can be healthy for the child when really needed. I will agree that spanking is not the first punishment that should be employed but it should not be eliminated either.

The DCFS here has taken children out of the home for minor discipline cases yet has left children in the home where they have been hospitalized and eventually killed. One incident I was a witness to a parent gave the child a light swat in a store because a child refused to obey several times on the same situation. A store employee called DCFS on them and the child was taken from them right then and there. The child was returned to the home eventually but it took a long time and the parent had to go through all sorts of court hearings and programs. There is a big fear in parents to do anything to discipline their children here because of this. As a result children as young as 5 are running around the neighborhood at all hours of the day and night, calling their parents names and bluntly telling their parents no when told to do something. There is a high rate of crime in children here from stealing bikes to drugs. Then the parent is drug into court and sometimes faces stiff fines and all sorts of harassment because they don't have their child under control.

[Brother Jerry]

Maybe I was spanked more than I deserved.

Or maybe not enough

[David_james]

Don't even joke about that

[Faithin1]

I abhor child abuse, but I have no problem with spanking (with love) an unruly child.  I didn't understand why my mother would say, "this hurts me more than it hurts you," until I became a mother and had to spank my son.  I can't count the number of times I have witnessed in public children who disrespect their parents either verbally or physically.  One reason the prisons are full today is due to a lack of parental control over children. 

Prov 29:15  The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

[Brother Jerry]

Amen

[David_james]

whatever. It hurts the kids more because kids hurt physically and emotionally.
I am completely against spanking. Especially using anything other than your hands.
I used to get spanked for wetting bed at nights, something I couldn't help. Did I deserve that?

[Brother Jerry]

David let me ask you one thing in reference to that.

Do you have any children?

If no then how can you honestly state that it hurts the children more?  This would be an opinion based only on your experience as the receiver.  I can say that when my mother would say that, I thought the same thing... "yeah right you are not the one getting spanked."  "This is not hurting you, you are not the one that is getting dragged out of the room and having your backside swatted...everyone knows what you are about to do."  Not once while I was being spanked did I ever think of what was going through my mothers mind.  Not once did I ever consider the anguish a parent can go through in this process.  The doubt that they have in their own abilities to raise their child, the thoughts of wondering where they went wrong, the prayers to God that this last attempt will not have to bring anything further judgment because everything else up to this point has failed.  There is alot that goes through the mind of a parent at this time.

Not let me also state this.  You and I can only speak based on our own personal experiences.  We can only base it on what we have personally experienced.  What other people experienced is only what they have experienced and it is purely subjective.  I cannot tell you what went through the mind of my mother when she spanked me, or grounded me, or anything else, just as you cannot speak for your parent(s).

I cannot tell you if your parents were just or not in spanking you for wetting the bed.  I am not in a position to judge that.

I can tell you that growing up when my mother would spank me I would never repeat that mistake.  I can tell you that when she did spank me it was either because other discipline methods did not work, or it was grievous enough to warrant immediate action.  I can also state that when she would attempt alternate methods (being grounded for example) the full punishment never seemed to happen (grounded for 2 weeks would end up being a week for example).  So my impressions early on were to take the punishment that was not a full punishment if given a choice.  Sure I was grounded for a week in actuality, but it was still not the full 2 weeks like she said.

Again I do not say to argue, only that we can base our beliefs on this subject based on our own experiences.  I personally can say I have been both the receiver as well as the deliverer of this form of discipline.  And I know what I thought when I received it, as well as what I thought when I gave it.  And I personally can say that it hurts me alot more to give it to my children than it ever did to receive it.  Maybe not physically, but definitely emotionally.

[David_james]

perhaps you're right. Okay maybe not make spanking illegal but ummm I got nothing now

[Soldier4Christ]

Hi David,

I have a niece that is in the same situation that you have been and for the same reasons. She is 15 yrs old now and still cannot help the fact that she has such accidents at night. She is deaf, does not have the use of her legs and many times does not experience the sensations necessary nor control of her muscles. I would agree in a situation as that it would be horrendous to spank the child for it, especially if the parent was aware of the condition.

This is not what anyone here has made a reference to. Spanking, just like any disciplinary action, must be done with a set purpose, with a goal and done in love not in anger or frustration.

If a child purposefully dumps their drink on the carpet as opposed to a child accidentally spilling their drink. The child that did it on purpose should be punished and made to clean up their mess. One that did it by accident perhaps just the cleaning up of the mess would be sufficient to remind them to be more careful. A child that does it on purpose time and again then perhaps a spanking is in order.