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Author Topic: Error in Doctrine  (Read 8190 times)
Petro
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« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2003, 08:53:57 PM »

Quote

Reply #28  Tawhano,
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

The way I see it, the two major problems we are having here is that this post started off as a debate about OSAS and then predestination crept into it. Now you are assuming where I am arguing OSAS that I am arguing predestination and vica versa. The other problem is your hateful comments.

Tawhano,

You have forgotten already...

This thread was on "doctrine error" and it began with a refernce of 2 Jhn 1:9, speaking of the meaning of the "doctrine of Christ".

Your posts on all other threads,including this one have for some time now been centered around, your own disbelief in the very words of Jesus.

In the "Eternal Security" thread, you have argued back and forth for days, in Reply's #76, 78, 81, 107 and so on, that  the "partakers" of Heb 6:4, are those who have received and been sealed by the Holy Spirit, you even asked the question

at Reply # 81

"The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end. The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don't hold steadfast in their faith."

Do you remember, where you are now..??
I asked  you the question, how does your understanding of this verse, square up with "Jesus's own words in Jhn 10:28

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,,

to which, you refered to Rom 11, and James 2:19; you did the same thing on Reply #6 at the  Once Saved Always Saved thread  dtd May 1, 2003 as Reply #6  when discussing this matter with Ambassadore 4Christ.

Then yesterday, you were enlightened, that  the words of Jesus are very important, and must be adhered to, as a life and death matter.

Now, if Jesus's words are  a matter of life and death, then  it is important to get the context of every verse where He spoke,  correct, lest we lose the meaning of  the teaching.

Aside from Jhn 10:28,29 and 30, I call your attention to the following verses;

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
(Jhn 6:37-40,44-45)

You had previously asked this question? At the Eternal Security thread as your Reply #107  

Tawhano asks;

I have to ask this even though it may cause this thread to divert from the original topic but I need clarification. All the verses I come up with showing someone falling away is met with 'they weren't really saved'. How and when is someone saved?

The answer was given to you, in the very next reply, by Sower, as; imediately when one comes to Faith in Jesus.

Now if, One has come to faith in Jesus, this means he is saved right then and there, in your opinion, those spoken of in Heb 6, are saved because they were partakers of the Holy Ghost; not so, I said to you, because one must be a partaker of Jesus Christ, this is what saves.

Now, you claim;
 
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

You my friend,

are in denial, you have posted so many things, you have forgotten what you posted where and what and when,

You have been espousing that all believers must obey commandments to keep their free gift of salvation, and now you would even deny this was your position. (refer to your answer above in Reply #81, I have emboldened it for you)

Your age is getting the best of you, you need to slow down, and think things through, before you reply.

Let me encourage you to get into the word, you have been given solid, verses, which reject this brand of teaching, which you hold to.

And furthermore, it is plain from all that you have posted, that you do not believe Jesus words at all, even thou you say you do,  but, that you trust in your own ability, to keep yourself to the end, and your faith is in yourself, and not Him.

And no wonder, you don't understand how and when a person is saved, but it doesn't have to be this way.  God, is willing that none should perish, this includes even those who think they are, when they are not.

Reality check.  friend..

Blessings,
Petro
« Last Edit: May 05, 2003, 08:59:21 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: May 06, 2003, 05:21:47 PM »

Petro,

You seem to think that personal attacks are strong debating tools, which they are not. It doesnít matter if I mistaken a post on another thread to have been on this thread or not. Each time it was you who I was replying and the message was pertinent to this thread as well. I have not changed my stand on anything I posted here. You simply donít understand what it is I have been saying because you donít read it through. You already made up your mind what my argument is without bothering to read it through.

The fact is that itís you I donít believe not Jesusí words. There hasnít been one verse you quoted that I didnít believe in. Itís your interpretation of the verses that I take objection to. Saying you know the real meaning of the verse and that I donít isnít a valid argument at all. Your sad attempts to explain yourself only proves to me that you are repeating what you have learned from someone elseís ideas and not your own.

You have been my biggest ally in debating on this forum. You attempt to win an argument by name-calling, sarcastic remarks and twisting my words around to suit yourself. How can someone claiming to be a Christian be so rude and hateful?

It may have escaped your attention but the title of this forum is Christians Unite. Passing judgment on people who donít share your views isnít in the spirit of this forum. The moderators obviously do not care or they would have said something by now. I would debate further with you if I thought you could refrain from personal attacks, sarcasms and passing judgment on those who donít share your views, however I doubt you are mature enough to do so.
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« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2003, 07:10:19 PM »

Tawhano,

You said it, you have been arguing all along, the problem is that you are unable to understand what has been said because you argue, agaist the very words spoken in scripture, words of life.

You simply want them to mean what you want them to mean, you've asked for my view point, not cause your interested in knowing what the scriptures mean themselves, but that you may further your camps agenda.

Just because you come to a verse, where Jesus appears to contradict himself, doesn't mean one should ignore His words, they should encourage you to find out where the apparent contradiction lies, and only then will it become apparaent that it never is in what He says, it is, in what one interprets it by comparing it to viewpoints shared by others,

Thank you, but I am not interested in knowing viewponts that disagree with what it already set in stone.

And who made me your teacher, anyhow... it is obvious to me you came you preconceived teachings perpetuated by those who have itching ears.

You are mad because I pointed out your backpeddaling, after you claimed you never bevlieved what was obvious from the begining, if you are willing to be taught, I encourage you to search the scriptures and in them you find the truth, but don't ask anyone other the the Spirit of Truth, it is an insult to Him, to seek wisdom and understanding elsewhere.

As I see it, if you really believe the words of Jesus, you apparently don't see a contradiction in the idea, one must keep  his commandments or perish (never mind I pointed out He never said that at all, He did speak of keeping the Law of Moses being necessary for eternal life when asked by a certain man (Mat 19:16-19), and the verses I have pointed out to you apparently don't register, with you since, this is why you say, my mind is made up and no one can change it.

So what's the point?? of continuing to argue. That was evident from the begining, when you declared yourself to be a "free agent".
 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 07:11:49 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2003, 12:37:43 PM »

Hi John here:
The thread is a good one. But lets remember that the thread says doctrine! Not peoples error. And that is fine with me also if it is openenly 'seen' sin.

Do I get my point across? In other words only the Master knows each ones heart! Or the person postings mind! It was He that said that the Wheat & Tares were to grow together.

This is hard for one to understand perhaps? Let try to clear it up. There are Wheat. And there are Tares. Then there are OPEN sinners. The Open sinners are NOT TO BE IN MEMBERSHIP for long. Or else Christ will not be there Himself. (see Josh. 7:12's last part of verse)

If OPEN SIN is taught for doctrine, one becomes apostate, and is to be 'spiritually' dealt with. Now, if a denomination fall's into this catorgory, they will be held accountable, and will in time become Christless! The candlestick will be REMOVED. Rev. 2:5.

Has the latter ever happened?? Israel of old's denomination became desolate of Christ. (Matt. 23:38) And check Rev. 3:9!
When Christ is NOT there, who takes His place while its members are still claiming to be Christians. And yes, many are STILL CHRISTIANS in ignorance.

One thinks of the great whore & her daughterharlots. They are such because of 'known error taught for Truth'! That is why Rev. 18:4 is a eternal life or eternal death matter!  

Please take note that there are no names listed here! Yet the thread was discussed, and error was the subject, NOT A SINGLE PERSON was mentioned. In fact it WAS STATED that Christ has HONEST CONVERTED SAINTS still in all apostate 'FOLDS'. See John 10:16 & again read Rev. 18:4 VERY C-L-O-S-L-E-Y!  (and yes, surely most might take offence?)

Now for the bottom line question: Of these ones in the errorous false Folds, (denomination's) Can any one ON THE FORUM READ THEIR HEARTS??? CHRIST said that He HAS OTHER SHEEP not of this Fold. Seems that their heart must be OK SO FAR, to me? And COME OUT OF HER [MY] PEOPLE
seem to establish this Truth!?

We CANNOT, nor do 'real Christians' DESIRE to read ones mind!
Gen. 4:6-7 tells one & all who it is that does this evil work!

So my thinking at least for one, is how about just leaving off the names of people in 'most' of our postings, & stick to the errorous DOCTRINES themselves, the Lord knows that the forum's are full of them! It seems to me that there is enough of this to take up a real Christian's time?

---John
 
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2003, 02:35:37 PM »

Hi John here:
The thread is a good one. But lets remember that the thread says doctrine! Not peoples error. And that is fine with me also if it is openenly 'seen' sin.

Do I get my point across? In other words only the Master knows each ones heart! Or the person postings mind! It was He that said that the Wheat & Tares were to grow together.
 
This is hard for one to understand perhaps? Let try to clear it up. There are Wheat. And there are Tares. Then there are OPEN sinners. The Open sinners are NOT TO BE IN MEMBERSHIP for long. Or else Christ will not be there Himself. (see Josh. 7:12's last part of verse)

If OPEN SIN is taught for doctrine, one becomes apostate, and is to be 'spiritually' dealt with. Now, if a denomination fall's into this catorgory, they will be held accountable, and will in time become Christless! The candlestick will be REMOVED. Rev. 2:5.

Has the latter ever happened?? Israel of old's denomination became desolate of Christ. (Matt. 23:38) And check Rev. 3:9!
When Christ is NOT there, who takes His place while its members are still claiming to be Christians. And yes, many are STILL CHRISTIANS in ignorance.

One thinks of the great whore & her daughterharlots. They are such because of 'known error taught for Truth'! That is why Rev. 18:4 is a eternal life or eternal death matter!  

Please take note that there are no names listed here! Yet the thread was discussed, and error was the subject, NOT A SINGLE PERSON was mentioned. In fact it WAS STATED that Christ has HONEST CONVERTED SAINTS still in all apostate 'FOLDS'. See John 10:16 & again read Rev. 18:4 VERY C-L-O-S-L-E-Y!  (and yes, surely most might take offence?)

Now for the bottom line question: Of these ones in the errorous false Folds, (denomination's) Can any one ON THE FORUM READ THEIR HEARTS??? CHRIST said that He HAS OTHER SHEEP not of this Fold. Seems that their heart must be OK SO FAR, to me? And COME OUT OF HER [MY] PEOPLE
seem to establish this Truth!?

We CANNOT, nor do 'real Christians' DESIRE to read ones mind!
Gen. 4:6-7 tells one & all who it is that does this evil work!

So my thinking at least for one, is how about just leaving off the names of people in 'most' of our postings, & stick to the errorous DOCTRINES themselves, the Lord knows that the forum's are full of them! It seems to me that there is enough of this to take up a real Christian's time?

---John
 

John,  

The parable of the wheat and the tares, is explained perfectly by the Lord himself , I invite you to look carefully at

at Mat 13:40, the tares in the end are all burned up, after the harvest, and these are they that perish, but grew up for a season among the wheat (children of God).

So there is no third kind of seed, if this is where you went with this idea, you tried to explain.

 He that soweth the good seed, is the Son of God(the children of the wicked one, are the tares), (the children of the kingdom are the wheat), those that aren't perish at the end, pure and simple. Ther is no need to make it more complicated than it is for those who have trouble already understanding the God Word which is able to make one wise unto salvation.

God allows the tares to grow with the wheat, so that none of the wheat is accidently plucked up with the tares, but lets them both grow together so, the ALL of the wheat comes to bear fruit, then will the harvest begin.

Do you agree??


Blessings,
Petro
Blessings,

Petro
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« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2003, 10:12:51 AM »

Petro,
I canít just let this go. You made false accusations towards me that I need to address.

Quote
Petro said:
Now, you claim;
I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not.

You my friend,
are in denial,

It has occurred to me that the reason you think I am in denial and Ďbackpedalingí is because you do not understand what it was I clearly said. Read it again. I said I wasnít the one assuming it was you. I know the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; I am not assuming they are, because it clearly says so. It is you who assume they were not and offer only your opinion with no scriptural backup as evidence.

John 14
15   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16   And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17   Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18   I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


I quoted the above scripture and here again you used personal attacks and lies to support your point of view by claiming I said we are under the law. I explained to you what my view on Jesusí words ĎIf ye love me, keep my commandments.í and it has nothing to do with keeping the old laws or a believer losing his salvation if he didnít keep them. And yet you ignore what I clearly said and put words in my mouth and then attack those words, which I never said. I posted this verse to indicate that the Bible clearly indicated that there was something required of us to do to obtain the promise of God and that is the promise of the Holy Spirit. I tied this verse in with receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:39); which you yourself had indicated is the end result of being saved.

Quote
Topic: Eternal Security Post#75 by Petro
Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

But how does one get to the point that they receive the Holy Spirit in the first place? You suggest itís because God gives us the faith to believe first.

Quote
Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#25 by Petro
God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.

But then you tell us:

Quote
Topic: Eternal Security Post#104 by Petro
Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

How does one repent if they donít first believe? And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim? And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they donít first repent?

Quote
Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#17 by Petro
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

Here again you say we must believe, but you have been arguing all along that there is nothing we can do and our belief isnít sufficient enough, that we need the Holy Spirit for our belief to be good enough. You are going in circles; Jesus was straightforward and told us that we are to open the door to our salvation.

John 10
6   This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7   Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8   All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9   I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Revelation 3
19   As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20   Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


And what do the scriptures teach us on how we open that door? Iíve shared these verses with you many times and there are many more that say the same thing.

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.


And what is your response to all that I have been saying? You twist my words around and then attack me with things I never said. You use personal attacks, sarcasm and lies. You love trying to put labels on me and sorting me into a group and then attacking me on grounds Iím part of that group.

Your doctrine doesnít lead people to Christ, it leaves them standing at the door while Jesus knocks and they donít know they are to open the door because you told them that would be works and works is a dirty word to you. Jesus did everything for us and all we have to do is believe, repent and be baptized to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the Doctrine of Christ that we need to follow and the foundation of my beliefs.
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« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2003, 10:42:29 PM »

Quote
author  Tawhano

Petro,
I can't just let this go. You made false accusations towards me that I need to address.

Petro said:  Now, you claim;

Quoting what Tawhano said at Reply#28;   "I am not assuming that the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; you are assuming they are not."

Petro said;
You my friend,
are in denial,


Tawhano, one thing at a time...

Quote
It has occurred to me that the reason you think I am in denial and 'backpedaling' is because you do not understand what it was I clearly said. Read it again. I said I wasn't the one assuming it was you. I know the partakers in Hebrews 6:4 were believers; I am not assuming they are, because it clearly says so. It is you who assume they were not and offer only your opinion with no scriptural backup as evidence.

Well  allow me to post what you said; so that we can look at it.

Please refer back to your Reply #81 on page 6 of the "Eternal Security" thread,  you posted the following:

at Reply # 81  Tawhano said;  (I will spilt what you posted and emboldened it, so that you can read what you posted)  

(I quote)


"The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? "


                                                                  "This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end."

The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they donít hold steadfast in their faith.


Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


(End of Tawhano's quote)

Tawhano,
Now that you have added this new explanation, then I beg your pardon as, perhaps I should have stated,

"you believe it, instead of you assume it",

this is your first error, because the next one, is a logical conclusion based on the first.  

And that is,................ that these of Heb 6 lost,  "their eternal life (salvation)".

I explained to you already, this viewpoint,  cannot be correct because of the two words, which drive the passage contained in these three verses, and they are the words "impossible", and "if".  And regarding the verse you refer to in Heb 3, to support what you believe, please notice the word "if" there also, it is clear from  the totality scripture, every person, who comes to FAITH, in Christ Jesus, has "received" Eternal Life presently, verse 14 of Heb 3, says;

i]if[/i], we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

That confidence spoken of  in this verse, is what begins the process which results in saving faith in Christ Jesus which is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes. (Rom 10:4)

Eph 1:12-14, speaks plainly of the process.

Because, everyone is held accountable under the law, until faith comes to them.  When Faith comes they is no longer under the law of commandments, but under the law of Faith (Rom 3:26-28).

If,  these had been given "eternal life (by Jesus), it would been impossible for them to lose their "eternal life".  

Because since Jesus doesn't lie.  

The doctrine of Christ is;    what God has declared about Him, thru Moses at,  Deut 18:18;  

Please follow this closely;

18  I will raise them up a Prophet .............................., and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Do you believe this to be true??

Then Jesus said;

Jhn 10
25  .....................  I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.  
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  
29    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
30    I and my Father are one.

The words "ETERNAL LIFE" are synonomous with "LIFE EVERLASTING.

This is the correct understanding of this passage of scripture for this reason;  

This life which is in Jesus, is given as a free gift to all who receive the free gift of faith to believe, based on the finished work of Christ at the cross, and it is a free gift of God thru the Grace of God, it has nothing to do with our performance, we are saved by the power of God, and kept by that same power, forever, to the end,  

This is why it called "Eternal Life", And,  since it was given to us, while we were yet in sin, even our sinning, (thou the evil one accuse us to the father) cannot take it from us,  because the scriptures are crystal clear, that while we were yet without strength, dead sinners................ Christ died for us. And above all else , He ever liveth to make intercession for at the throne of Grace. (Heb 7:25) for he is our High Priest who ministers at the true tabernacle not made with human hands, where he offered up his own blood for our sins. (Heb 8:1-3)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.  Because the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (Rom 5:6-21)

Now, is this NOT what you believe??................if not.......... where have I, gone wrong??

If they can lose their "eternal life" (which was given them by Jesus), then the truth is they never had "eternal Life" (They may have had some other kind of life, but it was not "Eternal").   Again,,, If it can be lost or taken away, then the words of Jesus are not true;

One cannot believe to the saving of the soul one moment, and then unbelieve what they believed, to the losing of the soul the next; These never believed, they continued in unbelief, even after partaking, tasting and having been enlightened by the Holy Gohst, they new enough about the way, but turned away ("fall away", Heb 6:5), this is why they can never be brought back, to repentance, because to enter the Kingdom of God, one must be properly clothed, not in our righteous wrags, but clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

For many are called, but few are chosen.

Here is Jesus words,

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish...  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
I and my Father are one.

 
Have you considered these verses;

Jhn 1
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
   (Jhn 6:39-40)

So if, one has been given to Christ by the Father, HIS will, will be done in that individuals life. and whosoever; "believeth not, shall be damned".(Mk 16:16)

I haven't assumed anything, I have read your posts, and even posted your own words, and have shown you that the very Words of Jesus himself, refute what you have stated.

And you claim to believe the teachings of Christ, I am afraid, that is debateable,  unless you can clear this point up..

Blessings,

Petro

PS  Now as for the rest of your post, I will go thru it, as I find time, and respond as I am able.




« Last Edit: May 09, 2003, 11:44:27 PM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2003, 04:37:22 PM »

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2 John 9 states: "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and Son."

Ollie:

This verse is not speaking about all Christian doctrines, but about one specific doctrine: "the doctrine of Christ".



  Define "all Christian doctrines"
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Petro
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« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2003, 05:09:31 AM »

Actually, the "doctrine of Christ"  is all that matters, it should  be said, Christian Doctrines should not include  anything that is not in the doctrine of Christ.

Now having said that their are other doctrines, which apply to those who are under the law.

Sorry I am not answering for Ollie., just putting in 2 my cents worth in.

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2003, 06:57:53 AM »

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2 John 9 states: "Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and Son."

Ollie:

This verse is not speaking about all Christian doctrines, but about one specific doctrine: "the doctrine of Christ".

This doctrine states that the Word of God, who is indeed the LORD God Almighty,  became flesh and manifested the Father to the world as Jesus of Nazareth.  That He died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures to give us the gift of eternal life. That Christ is God our Saviour, and that it is His blood and His righteousness that saves us.

Those who reject the Deity of Christ, that he is fully God and fully sinless Man, the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and His resurrection as Lord and Savior, are not, and cannot be saved.  That is the message of this verse.

There have been numerous heresies since the beginning challenging or denying these truths.  It is these heretics who are being addressed.  See 1 Jn. 4:1-3. These heretics (Jehovah's Witnesses for example) must neither be invited into your home, nor must you wish them God speed (2 Jn. 10). Seventh Day Adventists believe that Christ did not finish His redemptive work on the cross.  They also fall into this category.

What other "Christian doctrines" are there? Other than Christ's?
I too ask a similar question.
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ollie
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« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2003, 06:59:40 AM »

Matthew 7: 28.  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
 29.  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The doctrine of Christ is His instructions to us through word and deed as given to the writers of the Bible through the Holy Spirit.
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John the Baptist
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« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2003, 07:29:53 AM »

Hi, John here: Smiley
I too find it incredulous how a 'professed believer' in the Masters BOOK can take a few verses from 2 John 9-11 and then deleate or void out its COMPLETE EVERLASTING GOSPEL & {AND] EVERLASTING COVENANT! Try DOCTRINE even mentioned by Word in 2 Tim. 3:16 of how it is to be studied in ALL SCRIPTURE! And Matt. 4:4's  EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD as stated by the MASTER HIMSELF! A Doctrine of Christ bottled up in a few verses? It is BEYOND the 'fool'ish of Matt. 25! Cry Cry
-John
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Petro
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« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2003, 12:50:38 AM »

Tawhano,


Quote
 Posted by tawhano at reply #35

John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

I quoted the above scripture and here again you used personal attacks and lies to support your point of view by claiming I said we are under the law. I explained to you what my view on Jesus' words 'If ye love me, keep my commandments.' and it has nothing to do with keeping the old laws or a believer losing his salvation if he didn't keep them. And yet you ignore what I clearly said and put words in my mouth and then attack those words, which I never said. I posted this verse to indicate that the Bible clearly indicated that there was something required of us to do to obtain the promise of God and that is the promise of the Holy Spirit. I tied this verse in with receiving the Holy Spirit (John 7:39); which you yourself had indicated is the end result of being saved.

You are ignoring my response to you concerning, this matter, you are still trying to make the word partaker of the Holy Gohst, as receiving the Holy Spirit herein, how have you tied those two together, at all, is beyond me..

The receiving of the Holy Spirit occurs after one receives the gift of Faith to believe to the saving of the soul, so, trusting the witness of the Holy Gohst while God the Father is drawing the indivudual to Christ is essential, and precedes the gift Faith to believe, followed by Jesus baptizing the individual with the Holy Spirit.

Notice,  Peter, who had not believed to the saving of the soul, at this time, professed to Jesus "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Mat 16:16), to which Jesus replied;

Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.  

This clearly was the work of the Holy Spirit drawing Peter to the truth concerning Jesus. Peter even terstifed

"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." (Jhn 6:68)................ when Jesus asked him

"Will ye also go away?".  

None of the apostles or disciples believed in Jesus, until after His resurrection.  

How do you reconcile, these facts.. they were not regenerated as of yet.. and yet, they testified the light of the truth that had been shed upon by the Holy Spirit, even Jesus confirmed it, when he answered Peter.  

This is clearly a testimony that they were partakers of the Holy Spirit (while they were yet in unbelief), who was working in them..bringing them ultimately to Faith.


Quote
Topic: Eternal Security Post#75 by Petro
Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

Response posted by Tawhano;

But how does one get to the point that they receive the Holy Spirit in the first place? You suggest it's because God gives us the faith to believe first.

You confuse the issue by assuming, that because the Holy Spirit of God the Father, draws unsaved people, to himself, that He might give them ultimately to Jesus (not all who are drawn are given, some come and consider and then leave, these are the ones of Heb 6), with one who has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, or sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Quote
Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#25 by Petro
God gave you the Faith to believe, O Man. you were unable to believe or receive, much less understand.

Tawhano, comments;

But then you tell us:


Topic: Eternal Security Post#104 by Petro

Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

Tawhano, asks;

How does one repent if they don't first believe? And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim? And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they don't first repent?

One at a time;

1.Q.  How does one repent if they don't first believe?

A.  It is a process, the belief needed to come to repentance, has nothing to do with Jesus, just yet,  one must come to the truth, that he is a sinner, condemned to death because of sin, and that there is nothing he can do about this himself, God who knows the hearts of men, gives more light as this sinner desires more truth, concerning this matter, when he (the sinner) agrees with God that he is deserving of death,
the sinner responds at this point by repenting and  God the Spirit, who has been revealing the Gospel to this person, forgives his sin of un belief and allows him more perfectly to understand that God himself has provided a full pardon for his sins, , and is offering a free gift of faith to believe what he could never believe nor receive while in his natural state, he is mgiven to Christ and that faith when received thru the mercy and grace of God, is focused on the finished work of Christ shed blood atonement on the cross, it is then, that Jesus, baptizes (seals)the individual with the Holy Spirit,  now, because I am not God, I can't reveal to you exactly how and what order this occurs in, but I can say with surety, that all of these elements are inherent in the Gospel, and when perfectly understood, sinners are able to grasp by faith the Gift that regenerates the soul.

2.Q.  And how can they believe if they need the Holy Spirit to make their belief sufficient for salvation as you claim?

A.  The scritpture states plainly;

Faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the Word  of God.(Rom 10:17)

Continued......................

« Last Edit: May 13, 2003, 01:27:45 AM by Petro » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2003, 01:07:07 AM »

Continued from previous post, to Tawhano's reply #35

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
(Jhn 6:45-47)


Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
(jhn 14:10)

The words Jesus speaks are the words God puts in his mouth, remember Deut 18:18, and as you know God, is doing the selection of all those who he gives to Jesus, so the belief needed before He can be given to Jesus, is centered around Gods own words, which Jesus speaks even today, one must believe God, first; how can anyone believe Jesus, if one does not believe God first, only then will this persoin be given to Jesus, and Jesus will baptize this person with the Holy Spirit.

3. Q. And how do they receive the Holy Spirit if they don't first repent?

A.  To sum, up what I have told you, (I know I have given you this already), hear is the order according to scripture;  Jesus said;

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.  (Jhn 6:45)

1.  Hear, the word of truth. (Rom 10:17)

2. Trust, one must trust the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. (Mk 1:15)

3.  Beleive God, Faith to believe in Jesus, is a gift of God, not of yourselves, lest anyone should boast (Eph2:8-9)

4.  Sealed, Filled, and Baptized may happen simultaneously, I don't know, at this point, but this is something Jesus does, and this same Conforter, who began a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: (Phil1:6)

Quote
Topic: Error in Doctrine Post#17 by Petro
One should focus on the teachings of Jesus, and must believe Him, it is becuase God the Father himself has put every word in His mouth, which He has spoken.

Tawhano, asks;

Here again you say we must believe, but you have been arguing all along that there is nothing we can do and our belief isn't sufficient enough, that we need the Holy Spirit for our belief to be good enough. You are going in circles; Jesus was straightforward and told us that we are to open the door to our salvation.

John 10
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Revelation 3
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

And what do the scriptures teach us on how we open that door? I've shared these verses with you many times and there are many more that say the same thing.

Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Your attention is invited to Rev 3:19:20, above, your understanding of this passage is in error, these are beloved of Jesus, as verse 19 points out, contrast this verse with verse 8, where He speaking specifically to the church at Phildelphia, "I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:, yet the door at the church at Laodecia was shut, whether the door was shut by man, that is to say they had departed from Him, since ultimetly He is that door, is not clear, what is clear is that He was rebuking them.


One thing you must learn to do, is listen carefully, and not jump to conclusions, if I have given you the impression, that one must possess the Holy Spirit before they come to faith in Christ, this is not correct, I don't believe I have said anything of the kind, inherent in what you believe is that very thought.

This is why, you are having trouble understanding this point, in the sport of fishing its called a 'birds nest", you need to work on it..


Quote
And what is your response to all that I have been saying? You twist my words around and then attack me with things I never said. You use personal attacks, sarcasm and lies. You love trying to put labels on me and sorting me into a group and then attacking me on grounds I'm part of that group.

Quit whinning..

Quote
Your doctrine doesn't lead people to Christ, it leaves them standing at the door while Jesus knocks and they don't know they are to open the door because you told them that would be works and works is a dirty word to you. Jesus did everything for us and all we have to do is believe, repent and be baptized to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the Doctrine of Christ that we need to follow and the foundation of my beliefs.
Quote

Christians use this passage to somehow or other prove what they believe, but the context of this passage is written to the christian church at Ladocisians, in case you hadn't noticed, the context is a call to repentance and to overcome, as He overcame.  

You should pray when you come across verses you do not comprehend, taking them out of context, is nothing more than a pretext..

Blessings,
Petro
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« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2003, 07:37:46 PM »


                           Here's an error
 The idea that a Son of God sent from eternity by the Father came down and took upon Himself human form collapses as totally erroneous and is exploded on considering the passages from the Word in which Jehovah Himself says that He is the Saviour and Redeemer, as the following:
 
Am I not Jehovah, and there is no God beside Me? There is no righteous God and Saviour beside Me. Isa. 45:21, 22.
 
I am Jehovah, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Isa. 43:11.
 
I am Jehovah your God, and you are not to acknowledge any God beside Me, and there is no Saviour beside Me. Hosea 13:4.
 
That all flesh may know that I am Jehovah your Saviour and your Redeemer. Isa. 49:26; 60:16.
 
As for our Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Isa. 47:4.
 
Their Redeemer, the mighty Jehovah Zebaoth is His name. Jer. 50:34.  
 
Jehovah, my rock and my Redeemer. Ps. 19:14.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am Jehovah your God. Isa. 48:17; 43:14; 49:7.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, your Redeemer; I am Jehovah who makes all things, and I alone by Myself. Isa. 44:24.
 
Thus spoke Jehovah, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Jehovah Zebaoth; I am the First and the Last, and there is no God beside me. Isa. 44:6.
 
You are Jehovah our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Isa. 63:16.
 
I will take pity with eternal mercy, thus spoke your Redeemer Jehovah. Isa. 54:8. You had redeemed me, Jehovah of truth. Ps. 31:5.
 
Let Israel hope in Jehovah, for there is mercy with Jehovah, with Him is very much redemption. He shall redeem Israel from all his sins. Ps. 130:7, 8.
 
Jehovah Zebaoth* is His name, and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He shall be called the God of all the earth. Isa. 54:5.
 
From these and very many more passages anyone who has eyes, and a mind opened by using his eyes, can see that Jehovah God, who is one, came down and was made man in order to effect redemption.

Can anyone fail to see this as clear as in morning light, so long as he pays attention to those very sayings of God which have been quoted?

Those, however, who are plunged in the shades of night as the result of convincing themselves that a second God was born from eternity, and that it was He who came down and redeemed us, close their eyes to those Divine sayings, and ponder with their eyes shut how to pervert them and make them square with their false ideas.

Harry
 
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