church hierarchy

[doc]

For the last 25 years I have been investigating the origin and development (read evolution) of this phenomenon. I will admit I am not completely objective in this issue as I have seen as much abuse as useful activity accomplished by this institution within the Body of Christ.

Before you condemn allow me to say I have not fallen victim to dispensationalist theology or other destructive heretical teachings - I am simply using the brain God provided and data from the Bible facilitated by the Holy Spirit.

When Augustine formulated his church structure, the people (there are no clergy or laity in the Bible) had no Bibles - Gutenberg was yet to come. The Hierarchy was necessary as Holy Writ was writ but unavailable for the most part. Comprehending the Bible and making application was a task that had to be undertaken. Through the dark ages and succeeding years, the church kept scripture alive and gave us thousands of manuscripts to read and analyze. Today we have His word in a conclusive form.

Of course we must have overseers (elders) and servants (deacons) to which we submit, but they are the only two offices specified in the Bible. Bishop is equivalent to elder in all church father writings and always plural in number. As Jesus is the “Shepherd and Bishop of our souls” these titles are already taken by Him. In reality, the characteristics and gifts of Ephesians 4 are for all Christians in His Body - not a select few.

The only definition of hierarchy I feel is appropriate today is: “In theology the traditional system of orders of angels and other heavenly beings.” It is taken from the Greek hierarkhia, from hierarkh s 'sacred ruler'. If the hierarchy we have today in most churches was of God's creation our churches would be overflowing.

Yes, I know all the church leaders on this MB have church governments to champion, but please look at this dispassionately and weigh the truth of it - if it is beneath your consideration, by all means ignore it.

If this observation is heresy - so be it. The word means: ORIGIN Greek hairesis 'choice, sect' and the synonyms are dastardly. My sect is the sect of Christ and Him alone. I choose to follow Him and His teachings in the Bible. I dearly love to fellowship with saints of like precious faith.

May the Good Lord bless and keep you all.

[Brother Jerry]

Doc,

Some interesting reading.  However I do need to point out a couple of things that I have come across in regards to this.

Bishop - episkopos
Also means overseer
A man charged with the duty of seeing that things be done by others are done correctly is one definition

I agree that Jesus is the Bishop of our souls.  However we see that there are needs for Bishops of the church that Christ established.  And 1 Timothy 1:1 lets us know that it is  a calling "if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work."  The word bishop here is the same as in 1 Peter 2:25 in which you mentioned above of Christ being the Bishop of our souls.  So the title of Bishop is not reserved for Christ.  The position of Bishop of our souls is however.  But because of our needs God established His church and because of our needs He set fourth a manner in which we would have earthly bishops within the church.  1 Timothy 1:5 also lets us know that there are bishops of the church, "for if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God". I prefer the non KJV translations that use Pastor rather than bishop because bishop sounds so Catholic

Now the term elder is used in different ways throughout the Bible.  And even in the NT there are two different meanings to the word elder.  One is a show of a title and the other is a show of age.  Let us look at the later of the two and see how it is used as a title or rank in the NT church. 
Elder - Presbuteros (yes this is where the Presbyterian church gets its name)
a term of rank or office - those who preside over the assemblies

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that though shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.
Here we see that elders are an ordained position.  Thus it is not in reference to the definition of age.  And these are people selected and given a special status through their ordination.

James 5:14 lets us know a little of their job.  It states "Is any sick among you?  Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord."  It is the elders that are the spiritual warriors of the church.  The prayer warriors if you will.

Acts 14:23 shows us that in the early church there were multiple elders in each of the churches, "elders in every church".  Again this verse also shows us that they are specially selected, or ordained.  The elders are not just older men but an ordained group of men within the church. 

In Acts 15:2 we see that it is the elders who along with the other church leaders (the apostles at this time), that are approached for matters of settling disputes.  Paul and Barnabas had a matter of dissention with some folks they went to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders.  The apostles would have been the bishops at the church in Jerusalem and the verse seperates out the apostles with the elders.  So the elders are a seperate group from the apostles.  And the elders are involved in deciding the outcome of the dispute.

Now that all said and done I will even go one step further and state that the structure and organization that is within the Catholic church is not a bad thing nor is it completely unbiblical.  (please note I am only talking about the structure not the theology or anything of that nature).  The Bible clearly shows that even in the first church there were leaders of the individual churches as in a pastor or pastors of the church.  Along with deacons who are to help out with functions of the church, and even the elders who are there helping ensure that the assembly is in order. 

Those 3 titles are the only that are given in the Bible and each is a distinct seperate role and with different responsibilities.  Just as God is a trinity and each aspect of that trinity plays a different role so is His church.

Maybe that will help and shed some light on things. 

[Soldier4Christ]

I am like most fathers.  I, like most, want more for my children than I have.

I am unlike most fathers.  What I would like my children to have more of is crowns to lay at Jesus feet.

First of all brother I must say Amen and Amen to Brother Jerry's sig line. It is indeed what a true father should be.

On the subject of this thread I must agree totally with what Brother Jerry has said as this is according to the Bible and according To God's wishes. Yes Jesus is the head of the Church but He has placed individuals in certain positions in the churches according to His will. As Jesus told Peter, feed my sheep. It was Peters responsibility to "feed" the sheep of Jesus Christ. This is one of the responsibilities of the pastors of a church.

I must add though that there are other positions in the church that were not mentioned such as teachers. A teacher does not neccessarily need to be a pastor or an elder such as the teacher of children and other women, although the Bible does say the position of teaching other women is for the elder women.

[doc]

Brother Jerry,

Please consider this:


Read Acts 20:17 &28
Paul goes to meet the "elders". he then addresses them as "overseers" [bishops]. Elder and overseer are the same people - the same role. This implies there are only 2 offices in the N.T. Church.

Acts 20:17
“From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders” (4245)
Acts 20:28
“Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers (1985), to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.” NKJV


“For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders (4245) in every city as I commanded you — if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination.  For a bishop (1985) must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money...” Titus 1:5-7 NKJV

BISHOP (OVERSEER)

episkopos NT:1985, lit., an overseer" (epi, "over," skopeo, "to look or watch"), whence Eng. "bishop," which has precisely the same meaning, is found in Acts 20:28; Philippians 1:1; 1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:7; 1 Peter 2:25.
Note: Presbuteros, "an elder," is another term for the same person as bishop or overseer. See Acts 20:17 with verse 28. The term "elder" indicates the mature spiritual experience and understanding of those so described; the term "bishop," or "overseer," indicates the character of the work undertaken. According to the divine will and appointment, as in the NT, there were to be "bishops" in every local church, Acts 14:23; 20:17; Philippians 1:1; Titus 1:5; James 5:14. Where the singular is used, the passage is describing what a "bishop" should be, 1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:7. Christ Himself is spoken of as "the... Bishop of our souls," 1 Peter 2:25.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

All investigation of The Word and the early Church father writings show that Bishop and Elder (episkópos ) are interchangeable and always refered to in the plural.

Whichever way this is intended by God, this is a tough role in His Body and one that must be accomplished  with joy !  Heb 13:17

Brother doc

[nChrist]

Hello Doc,

Brother, I feel very blessed to belong to a family with many preachers, missionaries, and just plain laborers for GOD. I've seen and read about many forms of church government, and I have mixed emotions about many things. First, let me say that many people I know do the work and handle the responsibilities without the titles. As an example, many of the preachers in my family really didn't want to be called with a prefix of Rev., and my dad was one of them. He felt this term brought some attention to him, and he wanted all attention and Glory to go to GOD. I hope that I said this in a way that it won't be misunderstood. In other words, "laborer" for CHRIST would be a fitting distinction, and the honors would go to GOD - not men.

Please don't think that I'm trying to say there is anything wrong with the more formal systems of church government, titles and all. I do completely understand the thoughts of my dad and many other members of my family, and this is what I grew up with. The people performing the various roles and doing the work were and are happy being referred to with more lowly terms. Above all, JESUS CHRIST must be and is in charge of any congregation wanting to worship and praise the LORD. If there is any shortage of yielding to CHRIST in charge, no organization or system of men can make up the difference.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 6:17 NASB  But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

[doc]

Hey, Tom,

A righteous and tender responce, brother BEP.

The issues of titles and offfices appeal to the worst in any man - elevating self over others is a great weakness in mankind.

The hierarchy topic, like other humanistic corruptions, has no place in the body of Christ - but is rampant to the delight of Satan.  He is the only one profiting from our struggles with our collective pride.  He was the first to yield to it and his resulting fall may well be the best indication of what is in store for any complacent Christian church or individual.

So let's make lots of waves in this lukewarm (spewed out !) world and wake the folks up.  This internet stuff has more impact than TV ever did.  "Fight the good fight of Faith..."


doc

[Rhys]

Most of the splits that resulted in the myriad of denominations today came about because of disagreements over the form of church government, not doctrinal or theological differences. This subject has caused more damage to the cause of Christ than any other.

I don't think it is productive to renew this controversy today. Any form of church government will work if those who form it are true believers in submission to Christ, but any form, even if it is strictly "New Testament", will fail if those in authority are self-centered, seeking money or status or power.

God is, however, a God of order, and a lack of order and anarchy isn't of Him. I see a lot of the complaints about "church government" are from those who aren't willing to submit to any authority, who dislike "organization" in any form, who believe the majority (not Christ) rules, and especially those who don't want to be accountable to anyone for their actions. (Not referring to anyone on this Board, but those I see out in local churches).

[nChrist]

Rhys Said:

God is, however, a God of order, and a lack of order and anarchy isn't of Him. I see a lot of the complaints about "church government" are from those who aren't willing to submit to any authority, who dislike "organization" in any form, who believe the majority (not Christ) rules, and especially those who don't want to be accountable to anyone for their actions. (Not referring to anyone on this Board, but those I see out in local churches).

Amen Brother Rhys!

It's very sad to read about many churches in the news that have yielded to the world instead of CHRIST. Fifty years ago, I would never have dreamed what I would hear and see about churches. This should be a time of much prayer for all Christians. We have the horrible examples of corruption out in the open, but we also have Brothers and Sisters in Christ being persecuted, beaten, tortured, imprisoned, and killed around the world for trying to share the GOSPEL of the GRACE OF GOD. We definitely are fighting the powers of darkness, and we desperately need the help and guidance of GOD to "fight a good fight and finish our course." May GOD help and guide us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:37-39 NASB  But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Brother Jerry]

Doc,

One thing we have to know is that original Greek of the NT was nothing like our English language in which two or more words could mean the same thing.  The original Greek was one of the most discriptive and inventive languages known.  Similar in complexity to the Chinese language which has thousands of symbols that in different combinations mean different things but no two symbols mean the same thing.  It is only our English translating that relates two different words to mean the same thing.

And for Bishops the NT uses episkopos while for elder it used presbuteros.  So there was intended a difference between the two.  And in the beginning of Acts as well as other books in the NT there is elders mentioned in the Jewish organization as a position within the church that is seperate from the priests.  Even back in Revelations 4 we have the throne with the Bishop upon it and 24 elders around it.  This is not 24 other Bishops or Pastors or anything of that nature, but 24 elders.

Now I do not say that a church is wrong if it does not have elders and pastors and deacons and a janitor.  I go to a small independant Baptist church with no deacon's or ordained elders.  But the church structure, and let me call it structure because heirarchy implies there is a ranking system or that there are things above other things.  The church structure is triune in nature as well.  There is the spiritual leaders in the pastors, there is the administrative leaders in the deacons, and then there is the elders- those that are wise in Christ and with age.  They care for the flock in emotional and spiritual ways. 

Sort of like our Sunday school structure.  We have a teacher, a care group leader who leads our prayer, prayer lists, and keeps us up to day on spiritual needs of the class, then an outreach leader.  Triune in nature covering the aspects needed for completeness.

Take a look at Titus 1 verses 5 and 7.  Same author in a matter of a couple of sentences uses elders in one and bishops in the other.  Even by today standards and human thinking the same author in the same paragraph would not use two different words to mean the same thing. Specially when describing the position,title, job description, etc. 

Again flip back to 1 Timothy chapters 3 and 5.  Again same author but in chapter 3 the author uses the word bishop.  But over in 5 he uses an elder(v 17 and 19). If they were describing the same thing then the same words would have been used.  But they were not. 

And something we must always remember when we study the Bible is that every word is there for a purpose.  God did not author a book of confusion.  And God will not allow confusion to enter into His book.  And when we take something and read one word and apply the same meaning to a different word is the start of confusion.  And that places our definitions over that of God's, which was the original sin.

God laid out the structure of the church.  God knows that no one man can run the whole of the church.  And that there are different aspects of the church that should be aided by other people.  Administration being one of them.  One thing to keep in mind is that every position described in the Bible has spiritual aspects to it.  They should be ordained and ready to be a spiritual example to the church.  God also knew that there are people out there that are afraid to speak to the pastor initially.  But with appointed/ordained/annointed/etc other people within the church such as deacons and elders then there is a wide assortment of people that a seeking soul should be able to go to if they fear the pastor initially.

Again my 2 bits.  And again I do not think anyone wrong or any church out of the graces of God if they are not following that or anything of that nature.  But what I do know is that if a church is able to find the established organization of God then I am sure that God will ensure that church structure is free from satan.  Also note that the Bible does not place any position "above" any others.  They have their roles within the church and that is where they are directed to stay.  And there are already guidelines on keeping the nasty things like gossip out of our lives and out of our churches.

[Whitestone]

Doc,

I was just "window shopping" the site and found this thread intriguing....so I joined up to join in...seems a wonderful community of sincere fellowship. Greetings to all.

I too have a long standing interest in sorting out the matter of church government/hierarchy. Much of what's been said here, thus far, is well taken and thoughtful.

A great part of church structure in our day, seems to have been socially and culturally evolved. I believe we now see something quite far removed from scriptural precedent. Men have an incurable fondness for celebrity. We celebrate those who achieve it and we celebrate the possibility of ascending there ourselves....the Pharisees loved their status and the people took comfort believing the spiritual end of things was being handled by the professionals. By the time Martin Luther came on the scene, the Church had had 1500 years to degrade as it had....the professionals had complete control. The beginning of that 1500 year period was the glorious occasion of Pentecost...quite a decline! Our Protestant beginnings, at the time of Luther, were much less auspicious than a Pentecost and only 500 years ago; given another 1,000 years, I cringe to imagine what church structure might become...barring of course, the intervention of One greater than Luther. 

I for one, am grieved to the core with the celebrityism and one-man-bandism in church operations. The great emphasis from the pulpits now seems to be self help oriented with a tincture of Christ dropped in at the end...How to be better, feel better, look better, succeed in marriage, parenting, business and health. This entertains and attracts and the itching ear is satisfied.

I am continually nourished by the writings of authors from several generations back, when Christ, holiness, the Cross, the Blood and sin were acceptable topics. Many of these revered writers and ministers are still quoted from today's pulpits, but are conspicuously ignored where they have addressed the "clergy" matter. A thorough compilation on this, beginning with say...A.W. Tozer, T.A .Sparks and working back through Spugeon, etc., etc., would render a consensis utterly dis-qualifying a huge number of "minister/pastors" on our current landscape.

Somewhere along the line we have assumed this amazing idea that seminary and Bible school graduates = God called and Holy Spirit sent ministers. It seems that Jesus is commending the Church of Ephesus when He says:


Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars(KJV)

Those darned rebellious Ephesians..couldn't they just come under authority?

Shushed for now

WS

[Shammu]

Rev 2:2
2. I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars(KJV)

AMEN

Though I would add, Psalm 101:4 (AMP) A perverse heart shall depart from me; I will know no evil person or thing.

[Brother Jerry]

Amen Whitestone.

One thing that I have to say I am proud of is that our pastor is very much an old school pastor for being so young (mid 30's).  And no punches pulled in his sermons and his focus is always on God and that is refreshing.

And BTW...welcome to CU

[nChrist]

Hello Whitestone,

I see this is your first post and I want to WELCOME you.

I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite. I look forward to reading your posts and having fellowship with you. We do have many strong Christians here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 9:8 NASB  And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed;