Jesus and the Trinity

[Sean]

I believe in the Trinity, here are some of the Bible passages that convinced me.  Tell me what you think (especially about the "angel of the Lord" being pre-incarnate Christ): [Part 1]


>>Why is Jesus equal with God and part of the “Trinity”?<<


Genesis 1:                  
26   Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...

Genesis 16:
6   But Abram said to Sarai, "Behold, your maid is in your power; do to her what is good in your sight." So Sarai treated her harshly, and she fled from her presence.
7   Now the angel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur.
8   He said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid,  where have you come from and where are you going?" And she said, "I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai."
9   Then the angel of the LORD said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself to her authority."
10   Moreover, the angel of the LORD said to her, “ I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count."
11   The angel of the LORD said to her further, "Behold, you are with child, And you will bear a son;  And you shall call his name Ishmael, Because the LORD has given heed to your affliction.
12   "He will be a wild donkey of a man, His hand will be against everyone, And everyone's hand will be against him; And he will live to the east of all his brothers."
13   Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, "You are a God who sees"; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

Exodus 3:
1   Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2    The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
3   So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."
4   When the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."
5   Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground."
6   He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
7   The LORD said, "I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings.

>The “angel of the LORD” is referred to as God in Genesis and Exodus.<      


Zechariah 1:
12   Then the angel of the LORD said, "O LORD of hosts, how long will You have no compassion for Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with which You have been indignant these seventy years?"
13   The LORD answered the angel who was speaking with me [Zechariah] with gracious words, comforting words.
14   So the angel who was speaking with me said to me, "Proclaim, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "I am exceedingly jealous for Jerusalem and Zion.

>Here we see the “angel of the LORD” conversing with the “LORD of hosts”.  They are not the same “person”, yet the angel of the LORD is referred to as God in Genesis and Exodus.<

1 Chronicles 21:
15   And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but as he was about to destroy it, the LORD saw and was sorry over the calamity, and said to the destroying angel, "It is enough; now relax your hand." And the angel of the LORD was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
16   Then David lifted up his eyes and saw the angel of the LORD standing between earth and heaven, with his drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders, covered with sackcloth, fell on their faces.
30   But David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was terrified by the sword of the angel of the LORD.

>Here again we see the “angel of the LORD” being a separate “person” than God.  Note how the angel of the LORD carries out the judgement of God as we see Jesus claim that He has been given authority to execute judgement and ‘He does not his will but the will of his Father’.  Also note the reference to the sword of the angel of the LORD and compare that to Rev 19:<

Revelation 19:
11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12   His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13   He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14   And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15   From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16   And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

[Sean]

[Part 2]


Matthew 28:
16   But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17   When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18   And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19   "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20   teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo,  I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

>Here is a clear revelation of the Trinity “Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit” spoken by Jesus.<

John 5:
18   For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
19   Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
20   "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.
21   "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.
22   "For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23   so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24   "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
25   "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26   [/b]"For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27   and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. [/b]
   
John 8:            
12   Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."
13   So the Pharisees said to Him, "You are testifying about Yourself; Your testimony is not true."
14   Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
15   "You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone.
16   "But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
            

Isaiah 44 & 48:
6  Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:  I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.
12  Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

Revelation 22:
13   "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

John 10:
37   "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38   but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

>In Isaiah we see the prophecy that Jesus will clearly be called God and Matthew backs it up.<

Isaiah 9:
 6  For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7   There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore.  The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Matthew 1:
(19) BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH (20) CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "(21) GOD WITH US.”

>For those that think Jesus was not God because he was human:<
            
Philippians 2:
6   who, although He [Christ Jesus] existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7   but emptied Himself [laid aside his privileges], taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8   Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9   For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10   so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of  those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11   and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

[Sean]

Genesis 1:
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...

John 1:
1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,          
     and the Word was God.
2   He was in the beginning with God.
3   All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him
     nothing came into being that has come into being.
4   In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.


Revelation 19:
13  He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

[John1one]

Hey Sean,
Good Scriptures! If you wish to develop the "Angel of the Lord" doctrine a little further, read about how He led Israel out of Egypt. The Word of God says that the ANGEL OF THE LORD came down to lead Israel out of Egypt (Exodus 3:. In Exodus 13:21 it is YHWH (Jehovah) going before them, but in Exodus 14:19 He is called the ANGEL OF THE LORD. In Exodus 14 He goes before them and moves behind them to protect them from the Egyptian armies.

I am not certain what Scriptures you already have to develop your doctrinal stronghold. If I am just repeating what you already know, I apologize. In any event I believe you have excellent Scriptures already and a good heated discussion with someone with an opposing point of view will help you to sharpen up what you already know and strengthen your argument with additional Scripture as the Holy Spirit brings things to mind.

Have a great evening and God bless,

John1one

[Sean]

Thanks John1one.  I didn't know about that one.

There is another one that I do know about but didn't include:

Genesis 22:

 9   Then they came to the place of which God had told him; and Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood.
10   Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.
11   But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."
12   He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."
13   Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.
14   Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."
15   Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
16   and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17   indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
18   "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

[John1one]

Greetings Sean,
Here is a Scripture that shows that the ANGEL OF THE LORD was also called God by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. When Jacob was blessing Joseph's sons, he gives a stunning revelation. Notice:

Genesis 48:15  And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, 16  The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Here we see Jacob asking for one blessing upon the lads, but that blessing comes from the ANGEL that he also calls GOD!

It is my opinion that the ANGEL OF THE LORD is the only PERSON of the Godhead that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob spoke with. I am not altogether certain about Moses, but I am leaning toward the belief that he, too, knew only the ANGEL OF THE LORD.

God bless,

John1one

[Ambassador4Christ]

Does the doctrine of the Trinity or Triune Godhead come from the Bible?

The Triune Godhead (or "Trinity") is a term used in reference to the concept of God existing in three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) which are one. The Holy Spirit is also sometimes called simply "the Spirit" or "the Holy Ghost", and Jesus Christ is, of course, the Son. Even though the words "Trinity" and "Triune Godhead" do not occur in the Bible text, this concept of God existing in three persons appears in several places in the Bible. For example, six passages are quoted below in which the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each referred to separately in the same brief passage:

Matthew 3:16 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost ...."

Acts 7:55 "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God ...."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you and peace, be multiplied."

Jude 20-21 "But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

One of the many verses often used to support the doctrine of the Trinity or Triune Godhead is 1 John 5:7. This verse does not appear in most of the Greek manuscripts, and it appears to have been added by the translators. But as we have seen above, there are many verses which list each of the three members of the Triune Godhead. So the doctrine of the Triune Godhead is not dependent upon any one particular verse.

Besides these verses, the concept of Jesus Christ, the Son, being fully God as the Father is fully God is overwhelmingly obvious from the vast number of passages making this point. These are documented in the article Jesus Christ: Almighty God .

So whether you prefer to call it the Trinity or the Triune Godhead or whether you just recognize that God exists in three persons which are one, the concept is the same, and it is scriptural.

[JamClub]

Hello Everyone,
Heres Some Info On The Bible

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Dust - Adam - Rib - Eve

Patriarch

Sarah
Abraham - Isaac - Ishmel

Exodus

Spys - Josh - Caleb
Moses Didn't Strike The Rock The 2nd Time That God Commanded, But Spoke To It.

Conquest

3 War Compaiqs Were Acomplished

Judges

Othniel - 1st Judge

_________________


United Kingdom
- - - - - - - - -
Saul - King - Behamin
David - King - Judah
Solomon - King - Judah
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
10 Tribes    |  Split 9318 b.c |    Southern Kingdom
Jeroboam                                2 Tribes
19 Kings                                 Rehoboam - Judah
   |
Ahab-Jezebel-Elijah-Elisah         20 Kings
Jehu-Driver-Madman                Jesus Christ
                                           Lord - Lion OF Judah