Rev 2:8-11

[Rookieupgrade1]

could this imply that not all believers will be taken through rapture, but some will remain (vs 10) as witnesses and martyrs?

[ibTina]

8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

   9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

   10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
   11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'


My first thought was that this is referring to Jews, but I really can not be too sure. Sorry not much help.

[Rookieupgrade1]

I too am leaning that way, that this applies to the Jewish people. However not all of those ministered to in the middle east were of Jewish decent, but I know that the Lord said "Jews" and "synagogues" so this is probably a good sign that it is a Jewish reference........

I do tend to read into things a bit too much at times

[2nd Timothy]

I don't believe any true believer in Christ will be left at the rapture.  There will however be an enormous revival during the tribulation period.   John speaks of an number which could not be counted that will come out of the tribulation.


When believers vanish, Churches will fill to overflowing.  Also note:

 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.


Why not, let the Church who has an ear hear what the spirit says?  See what I mean?   Not that Jesus isn't addressing all believers in these passages, but its worded in such a way to include ANYONE who has an ear, to listen to what the Spirit is saying.   Just some food for thought.

[Rookieupgrade1]

good food too

I find it difficult even when the Lord is addressing a specific church, to differentiate between the message for them as compared to the message for us all.

I think there is no difference since there is a lesson for us all in everything the Lord has said........no matter who he said it to......this is where I get confused.

[airIam2worship]

I don't think this passage is reffering to the Jews, I think it is referring to Christians, this is one of the first churches in early Christianity, so that leads me to believe that it would be Christians.

[Rookieupgrade1]

This is partioally the trouble I have.

Chirst came, died, and rose. Those that believe this are saved.

No differenciation between gentile or Jew. None of us get to Heaven without Jesus.

OK

I guess, same question posed...........will some believers remain.....or is this simply "the reminant" that will spark revival and belief during the Trib.?

[Soldier4Christ]

This is a subject that Christians have struggled with for many, many years even to the point of causing serious division. (I'm positive that won't happen here as we have some wonderful Christians that realise this. )

Let's take a look at who those in the original church of Smyrna were. Going by the geographical location and the given population of the time it is thought that most were Jews. However we know that not all those saved there were necessarily Jews because there were other nationalities there also that did come to the Lord. We do know that the church of Smyrna was considered to be very faithful even though they were persecuted by many, especially the stout Jews that did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. They were also a very poor people worldly wise because they were considered outcasts and were not to be dealt with financially. They had to survive amongst themselves, because the Jews were not allowed to by or sell with them. Yet through all these trials and tribulations Christians in this area held on to their love of and for Jesus more than any other area of Asia.

I will leave this thought with what we are told in the Bible:

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

[2nd Timothy]

I think we are all on the right track here.


The spirit is speaking to these churches in these passages.   They are specifically named, and each one receives different instructions.  So its clear that the spirit is speaking to those who can and are willing to hear Him in those Churches (believers!)


If we look over in 13:9, (later on) its the same phrase, but the addressee is not any specific church....

Rev 13:9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.

There is no mention made here of any specific Church, or any individual group of believers, only those who are dwelling on earth.  This is speaking to anyone and everyone who has an ear and is willing to listen.



To fully understand the structure of Revelation, you first MUST understand the keys Jesus gave, and view each part within the context of those keys.



First...

Rev 1:11  saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

So here are Johns instructions pertaining to these specific 7 Churches. 



Now for the KEYS...

Rev 1:19  "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

3 categories.  Things John had just seen, things which are present, and things that are future yet.   Each part of revelation falls into one of these three categories.

For eg.

Rev 4:1  After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."


Now he points to future events.   


While its a very difficult book to understand, keeping the KEYS for context in mind will help you understand a little better what, whom, and when is being addressed.


So the Churches, going by this, would have been "things that are" in Johns time, because he was instructed to send letters to them.    No question there is a spiritual layer in each letter that applies to us today, but thats a whole different thread.


Blessings!

[2nd Timothy]

I guess, same question posed...........will some believers remain.....or is this simply "the reminant" that will spark revival and belief during the Trib.?

There is no reason to believe that anyone who has their faith in Christ will be left when Christ returns.

note:


1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.


Then we who are alive (in Christ, just as those who were dead in Christ).    So whatever your status, living or dead, if you are in Christ, you are included here.


There will be many who come to Christ after the rapture...so yes there will be believers who are on earth during the tribulation, but it wont be because they were left.   It will be because they choose to believe in Christ at that time.   OR you might even say, they choose to "hear what the spirit says".   

Blessings!

[Soldier4Christ]

I normally don't like getting into discussions such as this because of the differences that do come out, especially as to when the rapture will take place. I used to get into them hot and heavy until I realised the major message that was being taught. "Fear not" and "be thou faithful unto death".

The story of Moses and the Pharoah comes to mind. God sent many plagues on the land yet he showed us that those whose doors were covered by the blood of the lamb, even though they were physically present, did not suffer from these plagues. The Apostles suffered from persecutions even to the point of being killed all for the glory of God. So whether we are or are not here during the tribulation is not the point, the point is to remain strong in Him and our rewards in the end will all be well worth whatever we may have to go through.

[airIam2worship]

Amen PR, there are some things that are either not clarified or revealed to us in the Bible. The most important thing we must do is keep our eyes focused on the Lord, and leave the rest to God. It is His perfect plan, and His perfect will is what will be done.

[2nd Timothy]

Calm down guys.

My point was not related to when the rapture happens, but rather, whenever that happens ALL believers will be taken at THAT time.


Many know I hold a pre-trib view, but it was not my intent to argue that point.   Either we ALL go when it happens (whenever that is), or not...no believer is left behind.   Agreed?



I have no problem discussing rapture timing either, but I too know its a source of great division.   At the same time, this particular forum/area was created to discuss items which could get heated, provided rules are followed.   I don't see where anyone has come close to crossing those lines, or even causing any division as it were.   Maybe I'm missing something here?   I thought we were just comparing scripture and discussing in a loving manner who was being addressed in Revelation where it talks about the specific churches.     

[Soldier4Christ]

Sorry brother. I didn't mean to sound like I was coming down on you or anyone else for any reason. I only intended to discuss my reasons for what I see the message as saying. Yes I agree that when we are raptured that we all do go together at the same time.

[Rookieupgrade1]

That was the base of the question, not when, but how many