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Am
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« on: July 16, 2006, 09:36:50 PM »

I'm new here, but I've looked into lots of places to see what I can figure out about identificational intercession.  I understand the meaning, and the basic understanding of the concept that this is part of the "new wine" being brought about for the end time army... ect. 

What I really am trying to find is some scriptural based references to this concept.  Does anyone have ideas, or additional resources that I might use to further research this?  I will be honest and tell you right off the bat, that I try not to be close minded or judgemental about things that I don't understand.  Sometimes I do find that I don't believe this or that, but that doesn't make me any better than anyone else.   In other words, please share whatever you might have and I will test what you said in my own heart, and come to the conclusions that I'm lead to with direction of the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2006, 09:57:48 PM »

Hi Am. Welcome to Christians Unite.

The belief of identificational intercession is the idea of praying for past as well as present sins. It is the idea of praying for the sins of our fathers as well as those of others. In other words it is praying for those that are already dead.

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« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2006, 10:06:57 PM »

That isn't exactly what I understand it to mean.  At least now I understand why you moved my topic to debate.... I was somewhat confused by that as well. 

I understand identificational intercession to be more about actually feeling the pains of others that you pray for... or try to carry to Jesus in the same way that he prays for us.  I don't exactly like the idea of praying for the dead.  I understand praying over generational sins to break them, but I haven't found ANYTHING that points in the direction that you are indicating here.  Can you tell me where you find this concept?
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« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2006, 10:43:24 PM »

There is a difference between intercessional prayers and identificational intercession. Identificational intercession takes on different forms by different people. I have discussed this subject in detail with many people before that do believe in it. Some believe it is as you just said yet others go into it much deeper including the prayer for the sins of the dead. I have no sources for this and since there is not anything in the scriptures "for" it I can give you nothing there also. Part of this belief also incurs asking for the forgieness of sins for others. We know that each person is responsible for their own sins. While we can pray that God will open their eyes to their own sins and to seek Him it must be something that they do themselves.

 
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2006, 11:02:02 PM »

Well, I suppose that again I find another dead end to my quest to find real answers. Nothing but opinions, with no tangiable research behind them.  I appreciate your taking the time to answer very much.

I can assure you however, that this question is somewhat based on an actual event that happened just last week.  The person that was prayed for is and was very much alive... not DEAD at all.  There were four people that literally "felt" the exact same thing, at 3:00 in the morning.  The four of us have been called to this only one other time.  I've only gotten one small piece of information about this type of intercession in a book by Jim Goll, called "Elijah's Revolution", and that is the first time I've read anything that explains this type of prayer.  There is some reference pointing to Acts and Malachi... but, that just isn't quite enough food for me.  I was hoping for more information.  I know that there is something to this, and I will keep searching until I find something helpful.

Thank you again
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2006, 11:08:47 PM »

If I understand what you are saying is that at you and the others were led by the Holy Spirit to pray for an individual all at the same time. I would call that being led by the Spirit.



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« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2006, 11:29:06 PM »

Yes, I am quite aware that what we experienced was a move of the Holy Spirit.

I'm trying to figure out what type of move it was, if this move is based in truth (God's word) and what we are to learn from the experience and what to do with it now.  It was very different than anything I've experienced before.

You know, "if you seak My face then you will find Me"... I'm just seaking for answers to things I don't yet understand.
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2006, 11:43:03 PM »

I know of nowhere in the Bible that it puts "types" to the moving of the Holy Spirit in us. The Holy Spirit speaks to us in this manner many times. I myself experienced such a thing before, both on the recieving end and on the delivery end. Quite a few years back when I first got out of the Navy my family and I lived quite a distance from any town. I lost my job that I had at the time. My car broke down. I had no one to call for transportation assitance. We had just used the last of our food the night before (popcorn for dinner). I was getting ready to walk the long distance into town to look for work and help. We had not told anyone of our situation yet. A woman that we had only met once showed up at our door and asked if we needed any food. She told us she felt the need to stop and give us some food. She had several very large boxes of food. After talking with her for awhile we found out she had the part we needed to fix our car sitting in the trunk of her car. I was able to go into town that day and had a job before I got back home.

Another time when I was overseas I felt the strong need to call home. When I did so I found out that my wife had needed me to do so. I won't discuss the situation here as it is a personal matter but my calling home had taken care of it.

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« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2006, 10:47:47 AM »

Hello and Welcome!
I have been called to be an intercessor and have been interceding for others for some time now. I do agree with the definition given for Ident. Intercession--you are supposed to become deeply in the Spirit when this happens, and you pray for souls, past and present, sinners that might not have accepted Jesus, past sins, etc. It also involves the present as well, in which you supposedly become one with God and identify feelings from Him to pray for involving those you either know or not know.

I can tell you that, as an intercessor, I need no label. Interceding needs no identification, but the presence of the Holy Spirit. When I am praying, I can tell when I am praying myself or in the Holy Spirit. When in the Holy Spirit, I tend to be so deep into prayer that feelings of others come up, as well as things that might not have been discussed in requests coming up from God to pray for. I have felt emotions, pain, as well as needs to pray for areas in other's lives, even when they have not asked for prayer in that area. When I pray with my own heart, I concentrate only on the situation at hand, and do not focus enough on the Power of our Mighty God.

When called to intercede by God, I had been praying for myself, my family and for current tragedies in our lives that surrounded us. Since interceding for others, I have seen such a change in our own lives and miracles happening in our lives every day. What you describe happening to you happens in any intercession--for our God is faithful and True. Ask, and you shall receive. You only need to believe that you will receive an answer.

God Bless,
Kelly
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In The Precious Love of Jesus,
Kelly
 
Psalm 62: 5 Find rest, O my soul, in God alone;  my hope comes from him.  6 He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
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« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2006, 11:05:22 AM »

Yes, I am quite aware that what we experienced was a move of the Holy Spirit.
Hello Am,
 If you agree that it was a move of the Holy Spirit I think that this move is always based in truth (God's word).  The Holy Spirit would not make a move otherwise and could not possibly do so.  I personally do not think anything but prayer will give you the conclusions you are looking for.......
and what we are to learn from the experience and what to do with it now.
In time the Lord will reveal to you your answers.  The Holy Spirit is always with us, but we can not choose the time or the place to use those gifts, just at Paul states in  1 Corinthians 12:11 so when you are wondering what you are to do with it now, the answer could be "nothing."  You have met its purpose or the conclusion could still be yet unknown.  It is always up to us to continue to be faithful, especially in times of confussion.  I would research all I could in the word of our wonderful Lord about the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  That is the extent of my knowledge so you can do with it as you will.
Blessings and Peace to you.
-Am-
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« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2006, 01:38:37 PM »

Praying for the Dead


In times of great crisis, people cry out to God in prayer. While this is understandable, prayers for the dead are both futile, and contrary to biblical truth.

Since the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001, our nation has been plunged into a deeply “religious” mood. The parallel of this “praying posture” has not been observed in our beloved America since Pearl Harbor was bombed—almost sixty years ago. This disposition is encouraging; and one, we hope, that will not be short-lived.

Our hearts cannot but anguish with those who are suffering such soul-tearing losses. Some children have lost one or both parents; husbands and wives have been robbed of loving mates; others will never see brother or sister again. To describe these separations as “painful” is an egregious understatement. The caring soul is wholly sympathetic to the tears of damaged family members.

It is most difficult to be critical of sincere people in a time of such distress. But we must, with genuine compassion, call attention to a glaring error that has manifested itself repeatedly—and occasionally on the part of Christians who ought to know better.

Not infrequently of late, the public has been encouraged to “pray for those whose lives were lost, and for their families.” For those grieving families—yes. Certainly so. For the dead, no. Is this a heartless admonition? It is not. It is spiritual reality. No one should entertain the illusion that someone may be able to pray for him, effecting some beneficial result, after he is dead.

While it is natural to have the inclination to pray in times of acute distress, the only thing one really knows about the parameters of valid prayer is that which is revealed in the Bible. The Scriptures constitute the only legitimate prayer manual. And there is ample evidence in that sacred volume that prayers for the dead are not only futile, the practice is antagonistic to certain aspects of divine truth—in spite of the fact that this pagan practice is common in certain circles of “Christendom.”

Reflect upon the following points.


   1. Even Catholic authorities concede that there is no explicit authorization for prayers on behalf of the dead in the sixty-six books of canonical Scripture. Roman authorities appeal to the Apocrypha (2 Macabees 12:46), church tradition (late second century and onward), the decree of the Council of Trent (Session xxv), etc., but there is no valid biblical defense to be made for the practice (see Donald Attwater, A Catholic Dictionary, New York: Macmillan, 1961, p. 137). It is only from a few passages, not relevant to the issue, that unwarranted inferences are drawn.

   2. The Scriptures teach that those who have yielded to the Savior’s will (Heb. 5:8-9), enter directly and immediately into the presence of the Lord (Lk. 23:43; Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:6,8). What need, then, do they have for the prayers of people upon the earth?

   3. In the parable of the virgins (Mt. 25:1ff), there is the clear lesson that after those “virgins” went to “sleep” (v. 5 – signifying death; cf. Dan. 12:2; 1 Thes. 4:13ff), there was no further opportunity for preparation (the “door was shut” v. 10). The lesson then is taught that only those who had made adequate, personal preparation would meet the “bridegroom” in that condition. The implications of this illustration are firmly opposed to the notion of praying for the dead.

   4. When Jesus related the details regarding the selfish rich man, and the righteous beggar, Lazarus, (Lk. 16:19ff), he affirmed that a “great gulf” stood between the abode of the unrighteous and the righteous (v. 26). This “gulf” is permanently “fixed” (this is the force of the perfect tense verb), and there is no crossing from one side to the other. How, therefore, could prayers from the living alter the destiny of the lost?

   5. ”. . . t is appointed to men once to die, and after this comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). There is no indication that a change in one’s spiritual condition can be made following his death—either by himself, or through the efforts of others.

   6. If it is useless to pray for the living, who are committing “sin unto death” (1 Jn. 5:16), i.e., sin continued—without seeking relief in conformity to God’s law of pardon, how could prayer for those who are dead already avail—since there is no post-mortem plan of salvation?

And so, while we truly sympathize with those who have lost dear ones, we would do well to be reminded of the biblical admonition—”. . . behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation” (2 Cor. 6:2). While this language, in context, refers to the gospel age as a whole, the phraseology is not inappropriate for the individual who, in an unprepared condition, faces that inevitable enemy—death (Rom. 5:12; 1 Cor. 15:26; Heb. 9:27).


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« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2006, 01:48:29 PM »

Amen Pastor Roger!!!

When I went in and found my mother dead, I prayed for her soul. Granted, it was too late but I didn't know if she believed in Jesus or not. Such things, growing up were not discussed by her. She was bitter at the Catholic Church for casting her out of their rituals, due to her being divorced during the time when it was not accepted (unless you were rich, like a Kennedy..then it seemed okay).

Because I was brought up believing in a purgatory, and that you had to put money in a collection box for these souls to be prayed for, I did so. It was years later, when I was born again and accepted Jesus as my Savior that I understood the truth.

Either you have accepted Jesus or you have not. I don't know what happens at the last moment of passing but I do hope that some have had a chance to accept Jesus in time to be saved. However, only God knows the truth and I trust in His Judgment, for it is Perfect.

God BLess,
Kelly
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Psalm 62: 5 Find rest, O my soul, in God alone;  my hope comes from him.  6 He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2006, 02:02:56 PM »

Amen Pastor Roger!!!

When I went in and found my mother dead, I prayed for her soul. Granted, it was too late but I didn't know if she believed in Jesus or not. Such things, growing up were not discussed by her. She was bitter at the Catholic Church for casting her out of their rituals, due to her being divorced during the time when it was not accepted (unless you were rich, like a Kennedy..then it seemed okay).

Because I was brought up believing in a purgatory, and that you had to put money in a collection box for these souls to be prayed for, I did so. It was years later, when I was born again and accepted Jesus as my Savior that I understood the truth.

Either you have accepted Jesus or you have not. I don't know what happens at the last moment of passing but I do hope that some have had a chance to accept Jesus in time to be saved. However, only God knows the truth and I trust in His Judgment, for it is Perfect.

God BLess,
Kelly

Amen Kelly, NO ONE can buy anyone's way into heaven. If that was the case Jesus would have died for our sins in vain, Jesus said:

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Those collection boxes go to the pockets of the priests. And it is no Biblical to pray for the dead. As you said, no one knows what a person does before taking their last breath, only God knows.
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