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Author Topic: Did Isaiah see jesus's glory?  (Read 3326 times)
the piano boy
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« on: April 20, 2003, 12:27:45 AM »

In john 12:41 the N.I.V bible says that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory in reference to Isaiah 6:10. The niv is the only translation that inserts the word "jesus". the king james version says that Isaiah saw his glory.

In the original greek text the word jesus is not mentioned in John 12:41. So is the niv a mistranslation? anti-trinitarians think so.

How do we know for sure that John 12:41 is talking about jesus? can someone help me?
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John1one
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2003, 03:25:27 PM »

Greetings Piano Boy,
It seems to me that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus. It does not specifically say this, but as far as I can see the context leaves us with no other conclusion.

The pronoun “his” is in the Greek and has no name to refer to in verse 41. Nevertheless, the pronouns in the following verse clearly refer to Jesus. The context speaks only of Jesus. If the pronoun “his” in verse 41 refers to our heavenly Father, what is there in these verses that would lead us to that conclusion?

Furthermore, Jesus speaks of this very Scripture in Isaiah when He was teaching His disciples in Matthew 13:14-15. Here Jesus seems to be speaking of Himself while quoting Isaiah’s prophecy.

Some people who read Isaiah 6 cannot see that it is a vision of the glory of Jesus (cp. John 17:5), To see Jesus as YHWH God would upset the theology of some sects or individuals in various other sects. Nevertheless, the one who became Jesus is often called YHWH in the Old Covenant. I don’t mean to make light of the opposing theology. People arrive at their beliefs with a great deal of inner strife and prayer. I try to respect that, but I must conclude that the One who became Jesus is often called YHWH under the Old Covenant. This New Testament reference in John 12:41 refers to Jesus in Isaiah, as He was before He became man.

Have a great day, and God bless,

John1one
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Symphony
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2003, 06:59:57 PM »

Hi, Piano.  Welcome.

Thank you, John1.

The context of the RSV, is clearly speaking of Jesus, beginning in 12:36, carrying the train of thought right on up through verse 43.  Vs. 41 uses the pronoun "he", but in the earlier verses it is specifically "Jesus".  

Isaiah 6:1, uses "the Lord", in the RSV.  

I've always equated "the Lord" with the familial, or friendly, or affectionate, address of The Almighty--that is, of course, with Jesus; it seems to transfer readily between Old and New Testaments.  And, the greatest commandment, "Thou shalt love 'the Lord' with all thy heart...", in Deuteronomy.



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Petro
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2003, 12:54:19 PM »

[quote the] piano boy
In john 12:41 the N.I.V bible says that Isaiah saw Jesus' glory in reference to Isaiah 6:10. The niv is the only translation that inserts the word "jesus". the king james version says that Isaiah saw his glory.

In the original greek text the word jesus is not mentioned in John 12:41. So is the niv a mistranslation? anti-trinitarians think so.

How do we know for sure that John 12:41 is talking about jesus? can someone help me?
Quote

the piano boy,

I think, you meant to cross reference Isa 6:1 with Jhn 12:41 above.

This vision Isaiah had is of Christ while reigning on the earth (note: Isa 6:3, "the whole earth is full of his glory."), during the millenial reign of Christ, when He will be King of all the earth (Zec 14:9).

Notice what Isaiah says he saw:
...for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. (Isaiah 6:5)


The following verses, connect Jesus as being that King The Lord of Hosts of the Old Testament the Redeemer Creator.

Isa 44
6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 51
15  But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD of hosts is his name.

Isa 47
 4  As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

And then Zecariah while prophesying concerning Jesus return to earth reveals to us,  that it is He  (The Redeemer King The Lord of Hosts, who will rule from Jerusalem), Jesus himself, spoke of this time in Mathew 24 and Luke 21;

Zec 8
11  For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me .................
13  Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14  And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
22  Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
23  Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Zec 14
7  But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8  And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10  All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11  And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13  And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14  And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15  And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16  And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17  And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

The prophet Jeremiah also, tells us this same JESUS is the creator God;

Jer 31
 35  Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

So it is plain to see Jesus, is The King, Redeemer, Creator, Lord of Hosts, God Almighty, spoken of and prophesied from old.

Israel rejected Him, and so do very many today, but it won't affect anything that has been foretold concerning Him one bit, just because He is rejected as God, won't affect the truth.

The Angels even proclaim his second coming to rule the earth;

Acts 1
11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Blessings,

Petro
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John1one
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« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2003, 06:49:55 PM »

Greetings Symphony,
I agree, the context of most (if not all) Bible translations concerning this Scripture point to Jesus! I have argued about the deity of Jesus on other discussion forums, so I try to respect the belief of those who believe that Jesus is divine but not God. I am not sure what that means, but apparently it means a great deal to some folks. It is apparent that they love Jesus, but according to how I read the Scriptures, they love but have a limited knowledge of Him.

It is not for me to judge the hearts of these brethren (I see them as such). I try to leave the judgment to God who deals with all of us mercifully. It is He after all who opens up our minds to the truths of the Spirit. I do believe, however, that we can refuse such benevolence, and remain ignorant (of course, they would be the first to say that I am ignorant). It just makes me desire His manifestation all the more.

Quote from Symphony
Quote
I've always equated "the Lord" with the familiar, or friendly, or affectionate, address of The Almighty--that is, of course, with Jesus; it seems to transfer readily between Old and New Testaments.  And, the greatest commandment, "Thou shalt love 'the Lord' with all thy heart...", in Deuteronomy.

I agree; but again, others will argue vehemently against the idea of calling Christ “Almighty!” I have found that out. Sometimes I get depressed when involved in such a discussion for a great length of time. It just hurts my spirit. It is much more fun answering a question like this thread presents and reading a post like yours. Now it is my turn to thank you brother.  Smiley

God bless,

John1one
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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2003, 09:20:42 PM »

While "Jesus" is not in the original Greek in John 12:41, the "He" refers to "the Lord" in verse 38. One has to take John 12:37-41 and lay it alongside Isaiah 6:1-13.

Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (Here "the Lord" is the Hebrew Adonay, which is God's title.)

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory. (Here "LORD" is Yahweh, which is His personal name)

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. (this is "YHWH Sabaoth [Tsevaot] the name and another title)

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me. (Here it is "Adonay" the title)

Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, (Again it's the title)

Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and [there be] a great forsaking in the midst of the land. (Here it is YHWH, the personal name).

What's the conclusion? Yahweh (Jehovah) = Yahshua (Joshua) = Ieosus = Jesus. Because we call Him "Jesus" we miss the connection. If we said "Yahshua" [YAH + SHUA]  or "Yahweh our salvation", we would see the connection clearly. Jesus means Jehovah or salvation.

That's why the Lord Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM" (John 8:58).  That is God's personal Name (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).
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Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father, and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy 1:2
Symphony
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2003, 09:53:01 PM »


Thank you, John!one.  

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