A World Ruler is coming!

[musicllover]

Coming to maturity?  No silly its the Kingdom of God that is coming to maturity. And that because the one you grant so much power to was thrown out of power at the cross.

First of all, please don't call me silly or use any other negative adjectives when referring to me.  It comes off very superior, and frankly, you have not earned that yet, although I find your questions very clever and deeply probing .
Here's your answer on maturity:
Matt 13:26-30
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
the above parable of Jesus is a reflection of the growing process of the believers and non-believers, therefore there is a maturing process of both.  To address the hierarchy of rulership both good and bad additional scriptures follow:

Eph 6:12,13
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

------->>>Hitch writes:
You addressed your 'soon and very soon' but I coulndt grasp what you were trying to say. How a bout a simple down to earth  time frame?

I will put a time frame if I get a divine visit from Gabriel. Of course I don't have a time frame, but Paul said this:
1 Thes 5:1-6
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Just as the surrounding natural elements change drastically with the four seasons, which narrow the months into 4 separate and short spans of forward moving time, and they are very clearly recognized, so are the times we live in when ALL the scripture is pieced together.  Jesus, himself, NEVER clear gave a date of a time of his death or resurrection, nor the day of Pentecost's gather in which 120 (including Mary, Jesus' mother) were all filled with the Holy Ghost.  One had to gather the facts together.  It is this gathering of scripture that I originally was hoping to discuss when I started this subject on the coming World ruler.

------------>>>Hitch writes
Also I asked why you think the scripture tell you the antichrist boogey-man is alive today.  Nothing in your answer so far supports the notion than any specific person is alive today and up to  the specific mischief.

Someone has been trying to control others, individual;s and nations  and this is common among fallen men, nothing special to the current generation.

So there remains two basic questions.

Why do you personalize 'antichrist' when the Scriptures do not.

In fact the scriptures DO personalize him:
2 Thes 2:3-5
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

------------->>Again Hitch
And as above;

What Scripture narrows the ages down to this generation? (as you have previously stated this person is living today,,,as opposed ot antichristian spiritual adversaries)

Again piecing together old and new testament information, we see the dispersing and regathering of the Jews.  In 1948, Israel was declared a state, and not since 605BC were they in control of that territory, not even in the days of Jesus. Rome was in control then.  This small piece of the prophetic pie is one of few reasons why Hitler could not have been the world ruler, although he implemented many of the characteristics.

The peace process, Iraq war, and more to come are all implements of the rise to power of the person, that is alive today.

Its not as though you have made some orginal claim.This same thing has been said  since the earlisest days of the church and in every case the 'generation' has been moved further into the future. As was the case for LaHaye when he claimed the terminal generation saw WWI, and we all know Hal's recent meanderings, altering his 'time guide' by as many years as needed. and gee ,,would it be fair to even mention Jack the Impe?,,,,

Am I supposed to be the original on prophecy? Don't think so. I am NOT a follower of Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe or any of these guys, though I have read many of their books, and others, including Marvin Rosenthal, Grant Jeffries (sp).  I have formed my own take on this subject with much constant study for years, much prayer, and patience waiting for the Lord to confirm, in the witness of two or more, for my conclusions.  I am committed to follow Jesus.

Thanks
sunodino - travailing for the lost

Sunodino,
         will put a time frame if I get a divine visit from Gabriel.  Of course I don't have a time frame, ..............

        IF were only so blessed......right. I don't think that its proper or bibical to keep asking for a time frame....  Hitch "How a bout a simple down to earth  time frame?"....... The scripture tell us that NO MAN will know the time or the hour. If a person does give a time frame then they are very mislead or have the spirit of the anti christ. I know its done, but I don't think its a smart idea. By asking someone this you are could be sorting out the false prophets from the real, thats not a bad idea, but depends on your motives too. WHO knows the mind of God......no one. SO no one is going to know when.

[Hitch]

The world is inspired to write love songs and script about his character, performed in movie and on stage. He wants to tell us his real name.  He wants to throw off his cape and shout “I am Yours Truly.”  Soon and very soon he will.



The above in not a reference to the Second Advent

[ollie]

Does any one ever consider that all in Revelation has happened except Christ's coming again?
 Johns talking and relating things in God's symbolic language, the same language used by Daniel, does not mean that they are always talking about the same things. They both just use the same symbolic language of God. The symbols are the same but refer to different events, different times. There are exceptions.

The biggest "beast" for Christians, when John was given Revelation, was the Roman Empire. The whole message of Revelation is victory over all adversaries of God through Jesus Christ.

[Knox]

Absolutely right. Daniel and Revelation are examples of Apocalyptic literature. There are dozens of non-canonical works like them, full of the same kinds of symbolism. They have to be read in the context of the genre that clearly influenced them. They are works of theological insight, not road-maps for the end times.

[Reba]

Does any one ever consider that all in Revelation has happened except Christ's coming again?
 Johns talking and relating things in God's symbolic language, the same language used by Daniel, does not mean that they are always talking about the same things. They both just use the same symbolic language of God. The symbols are the same but refer to different events, different times. There are exceptions.

The biggest "beast" for Christians, when John was given Revelation, was the Roman Empire. The whole message of Revelation is victory over all adversaries of God through Jesus Christ.

Ollie,

 that kind of theology does NOT sell books!

[Hitch]

Well that way Dan's 'time of the end' makes sense.  Time of the end of the old system, specifically the daily animal sacrifices, one of the very few antediluvian traditions that survived untl Jesus time.

Perf Ollie.


Take care

Hitch

[sunodino]

Is it reasonable to say since God is the rewarder of those who seek him and cuttsoff the wicked and blesses the righteous that even though evil will be present the spiritual and cultural effects of the work of the cross will prevail in history?The work of the crfoss is iether greater or lesser than the fall of Adam...What do you say?

It IS reasonable and true to say God is THE rewarder and punisher of the righteous and wicked.  The work of the cross is finished and the has prevailed.  However, the work in us is not complete, nor have all that will repented as yet repented.  Peter states that God is not slack concerning his promise but long suffering, not willing that ANY should perish but all come to repentance. And Paul makes this interesting comment that the work is yet to be fullfilled:
1 Cor 15
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Death has yet to be vanquish, 'katargeo' Gr. put to nought, although it cannot prevail, it has "lost it's sting".

---

Undefined terms are meaningless. You used 'soon and very soon' to convey some idea. What was that idea in real terms ?

I agree, and the ambiguity of "soon and very soon" is meaningless, it is only to prompt some interest, perhaps self questioning, "could this happen in my lifetime, and if so, should I study this in the bible?" Still the word soon, incorporates a more compressed period of time.

---

This describes every Roman Emporer as well as many other despots of the biblical era

TRUE, but Rome cannot claim the last emperor.  Daniel's prophetic book clearly elaborates, 5 Kingdoms, Babylon, Mede/Persian, Greek, Roman, Quasi-Rome/?? (iron/clay)

---

There has been no prophecy of return to the land since the Babylonian captivity. And in this case repentence in the land of capitivty was required before restoration.

There are prophecies of their return and their repentance. Paul asks rhetorically, "Hath God cast away his people?" and then answers "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew." again he says this "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.", (wherever they may be) .  Today as well there are thousands all over this country and in Israel, worshipping Messiah, Yeshua.  And these beautiful versus explain:
Romans 11:7-12
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.  And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:  Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The repentance of the Jew is the fullness of the plan that we are all one in Christ. He has torn down the middle wall of partition.

IKing 8:47-48
47   Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48   And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:

(KJV)

Just because you think they are in their State, declared in 1948, and have recaptured Jerusalem (1967) without what you call repentance, does not negate the work Jesus himself is doing with those Messianic converts.  This remnant cannot be discarded, or brushed away.  At times scripture verse is fulfilled partially in time.  Example:    
Isaiah 61:1,2
61:1  The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2  To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
Luke 4:18  Is a partial fulfillment, in that Is 61:2b has yet to be done, the VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD, and to (finally) comfort ALL who mourn.

---

This pattern is also used by Jery:

Jer 29:12-14
12   Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13   And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14   And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
(KJV)


These things have long since happened ,but the pattern is clear. Repentance before restoration
Modern Israel is not repentant. And as an antichristian state has no claims whatever to God's blessings.

The peace process, Iraq war, and more to come are all implements of the rise to power of the person, that is alive today.[/color]

Well what Scripture says this? What Scripture mentions a realitively small war to take place in Iraq thousands of years  future ,from the point of the prophecy?

This looks so familiar.

 If we read of war the prophecy mongers come out shouting the end is near.. and they never define near ...

If we read of peace the prophecy mongers come out shouting the end is near...

Its not as though you have made some orginal claim.This same thing has been said  since the earlisest days of the church and in every case the 'generation' has been moved further into the future. As was the case for LaHaye when he claimed the terminal generation saw WWI, and we all know Hal's recent meanderings, altering his 'time guide' by as many years as needed. and gee ,,would it be fair to even mention Jack the Impe?,,,,

With only what is on this thread its easy enough to see your conclusions are a rehash of Walvoord's expectations expressed in Armageddon Oil and the Middle East Crisisin 1974. Which failed to come to pass, not once but twice with the 1990 revision and reprint.( I m not saying you took your ideas from that work, but obviously you have heard and read enough of a similar nature and have been influenced by them) The only problem being that in every case in all history, short term expectations, which yours certainly is, based on futuristic outlooks have been proven wrong. And a common factor is the 'it couldnt have been then it must be now'...fill in the blank reasoning.

Take care

Hitch

I am not a follower of any of those you mentioned nor their time frames etc.  I don’t agree with Walvoord or any of the rapture bunch!  

I lean more toward Marv Rosenthal, PreWrath Rapture.  I believe we here today will see the antichrist, we will suffer persecution and perhaps death for the name of Jesus.  I believe that this country is in serious decline and possibly a take over from some foreign group, that will put the Christians in bondage.  I believe the antichrist is from a family descended from Mohammed himself.  They can prove it, they are alive and perhaps one of these members will take over Iraq, and its unfound weapons of mass destruction along with the oil, making them the richest family dynasty in the world ever, and most powerful.  That is what I believe.  Sorry that you are so skeptical. But what you need more than skeptism, is a travail for the lost condition of those around you who for the lack of truth and the flood of hypocrites, are skeptical about Jesus, and his final act on Calvary.  Convince them as doggedly as you are very capable of doing!  I must admit, your thinking and quickness is very sharp..

sunodino – travailing for the lost