Satan, lying, cheating and stealing ways

[Shammu]

Satan, lying, cheating and stealing ways

Since we are renouncing the devil and all his works and all his ways, we should ask: "What are the works and ways of the devil?" The devil's works are hatred, bitterness, resentment, anger, arrogance, and above all the stubborn refusal to bow to the will of God. The devil's ways are deception and lying, cheating and stealing.

Temptation by its very nature is deception, a lie. What is evil is deceitfully presented as good, what is harmful as helpful, what is poison as antidote, what is enslaving as liberating, what is foul as fun. Temptation is what a trap is to an animal. It offers something good, but its true intent is to trap and kill. This is the background for Christ's statement about the devil in John 8:44 "When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

To be tempted is one thing, to sin is another. Jesus was tempted but did not sin. We cannot avoid temptation. Countless individual and corporate monastic attempts notwithstanding, there is no place to go to escape from temptation, for the devil and our flesh are always with us. We can't escape it, but when it comes, we are to resist it, that is, say "no" to it. We are to "resist him Satan and remain, firm in our faith" 1 Peter 5:10 and "Resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:8.

Vigilance against temptation is not merely a solo affair. It is a community affair, an affair of the Christian community, the Church. This is seen in Galatians 6:1-2: "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ." This is also seen in the 6th & 7th Petitions of the Lord's prayer: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one" Matthew 6:13. We pray in the plural. We pray this for one another not just ourselves.

The devil also often attacks with temptation following some spiritual victory on our part. Here again Elijah's victory over the prophets of Baal is a good example. This was Elijah's great spiritual victory. But soon after that he succumbed to temptation and fell into fear, depression, and fatalism. So it is often with us. When we have just shared the Gospel with someone, spoken out for the truth of God's word, have just started a new habit of Scripture reading or prayer, then we are attacked so that we might quit. Especially when we try to let our lights shine, to "go public" with our faith, we can expect the adversary to violently attack.

The devil often tempts us during a time of idleness. It has often been noted that King David was tempted to commit adultery with Bathsheba during a time of idleness. 2 Samuel 11, "Then it happened in the spring, at the time when kings go out (to battle), that David sent Joab and his servants with him and all Israel, and they destroyed the sons of Ammon and besieged Rabbah. But David stayed at Jerusalem. Now when evening came David arose from his bed and walked around on the roof of the king's house, and from the roof he saw a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful in appearance." The words picture a scenario of idleness.

The devil is tenacious and persistent. It is one thing to say "no" to one temptation. It is quite another to continue to say "no" to a persistent temptation. As an example: For a time Samson withstood Delilah's temptations to tell her the secret of his great strength. But we are told that "It came about when she pressed him daily with her words and urged him, that his soul was annoyed to death. So he told her all that was in his heart" Judges 16:16-17. Note that what won the day for Delilah was persistence. This is a picture of how the devil also works.

The devil leads us to doubt, then deny God's goodness or wisdom. This was his approach with Eve as recorded in Genesis 3. He injected doubt in her relationship with God: "Did God really say . . ." Then he openly challenged God's goodness and integrity. "You will not surely die . . . For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." This is often his technique with us. Often through other people he injects doubt of God's Word into our minds. Having then weakened us, he openly challenges God's goodness or justice, leading us to rationalize and justify saying "yes" to the temptation.

You know his schemes against YOU! Or as Peter puts it "Be on the alert" 1 Peter 5:8. Know what temptations are used against YOU. It does no good to be vigilant toward temptation if we are totally ignorant of the ways that we are most easily tempted.

So we're in a battle. Because even though we really have renounced the devil and all his works and all his ways, we find ourselves doing them too many times. It's a battle... a battle that started in the Garden of Eden, a battle that continues to rage on not only in this world but especially right in our own hearts. When a person is baptized into Christ, when they are declared beloved children of the Father in heaven, a new heart is planted within. A new self is created. And that new heart and new self rejoice in Jesus works and ways and totally renounce the works and ways of Satan. But the new self exists right alongside the old self; the new heart beats right next to the old heart. A Christian is by definition a conflicted personality.  And so the battle within is inevitable. It's the battle Paul was talking about when he said: "For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want!" Galatians 5:17 It's a battle he was talking about when he cried out: "I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want to do." Rom. 7:19

cont'd next post.

[Shammu]

Jesus knew enough of Satan's works to know that he only wanted to destroy in Jesus the light of faith. He knew enough of Satan's ways to know that the devil is a liar whom you can never believe. In the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus succeeds in doing what Adam and Eve failed to do. He turns His back on Satan's deceits and empty promises and He clings to God alone.

The sign of spiritual life within us is actually the raging battle within. To give up the fight against evil is simply to renounce everything Jesus would give us. In mercy, the Word of God is spoken to us to strengthen us. God's Word does not promise an end to the battle in this life. In fact, God's Word assures us that the Battle will go on until the day we die. But God's Word gives us the courage and strength to fight this life-long battle. It does so because in speaking truth to us, it unites us to Jesus: it tells us that we are children of God, holy and beloved. It points us for the proof of this, not to any successes we have in the battle against evil, but simply to the cross. There the Word teaches us to see the true tree of life: where Forgiveness wipes out sin, where Love defeats evil, where Life destroys death.

Do you renounce the devil and all his works and all his ways? I hope so. You said so, at baptism. You can't have it both ways. Yet the devil tries to make us have it both ways because in doing so he's really winning us to his way. The power to continue the battle is God's Word and sacraments. The more of God's power we take in, the harder the devil works on us. And the harder the devil works on us, the more strength God gives us. And when it comes to the direct battle between God and Satan, we need only look as far as the cross and empty tomb to know who the real winner is. Jesus is the winner. And He gives you the power to be the winner, as well.

When Paul describes the full armor of God we need to withstand the devil's attacks, the only offensive weapon he mentions is "the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God" Eph. 6:17. Whether Paul was thinking of Jesus when he wrote this, our Lord Jesus is the greatest example of using God's Word as a weapon to defeat Satan. In the Gospels Matthew 4:1-11  we learn that when the devil tempted Jesus in the wilderness, Jesus fought Him with the Word of God. Three times he was tempted and three times Jesus quoted Scripture to drive off the enemy. What catches my attention is that each passage Jesus quoted was a passage that confronted the specific temptation. In the same way, we should confront whatever is tempting us, with a passage that speaks to the sin we are being tempted to commit. For example, if we are being tempted to cheat, we should confront the devil and our sinful flesh with the 7th Commandment: "It is written, "You shall not steal."

Another way to use God's Word as a weapon is to be so immersed in the Word that you know right from wrong and therefore know when you are being tempted. Here I have in mind passages like Psalm 119:11 "Your word I have treasured in my heart, that I may not sin against You." If we don't have a clear understanding and memory of what God says is right and wrong in His Word, we will not know when we are being tempted.

Prayer is a second, and an extremely important, weapon, that God has given us to fight off temptation. Jesus made this clear already in the Lord's Prayer. The last two petitions are devoted to praying against the devil and temptation: "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." We also remember Jesus' words to Peter, James, and John and the garden of Gethsemane: "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak" Matthew 26:41. Of course this means praying both when we are being tempted, that God might help us say "no;" and it means praying daily that God might keep us from succumbing to temptation.

Using the Gospel as a weapon means confessing your baptism and faith in the Gospel as Paul outlines in Romans 6. It means affirming your new identity in Christ in the face of whatever is tempting you. It means saying, for example, "Devil, you who are tempting me, you have no power over me. I am a Christian. I have been baptized. Through baptism, I have died to sin but am alive to God through Christ Jesus. I belong to Jesus Christ, who, by His perfect life and death, has saved me, forgiven me, and set me free from slavery to you, sin, and death. Sin has no power over me for I am under grace. I believe that Jesus Christ lived and died for me. I now dwell in His kingdom, not yours. Therefore, be gone satan”!

The fourth weapon I believe God has given us is a matter of common sense - but it is also found in the Scriptures. We are to fight temptation by avoiding it and fleeing from it. By "avoiding" it, I mean not foolishly putting ourselves in a position or place where we will be easily tempted. For example, Psalm 101:3 “I will set before my eyes no vile thing." We will be tempted far less, if we avoid situations and places that tempt us. We will be tempted far more, if we willingly invite things that tempt us into our lives.

We are also to flee temptation. When we find ourselves in a situation where we are being tempted, we should flee, run away from it, rather than foolishly think we are strong enough to withstand it. In this spirit, Paul writes in 1 Cor. 6:18  "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." And Joseph is a great Old Testament example. When Potiphar's wife tempted him he fled out of the room Genesis 39:1-20.

Christian fellowship. When it comes to resisting temptation, there is strength in numbers. We are stronger together than we are apart. Christians who are being tempted should seek the help of other Christians

Your brother, and friend in Christ.
Bob

Jonah 2:8 Those who pay regard to false, useless, and worthless idols forsake their own [Source of] mercy and loving-kindness.

Off my website CR2 

[ggamble]

Greetings Dream Weaver,

Amen, brother
It is a daily fight, the sword of the Spirit is our weapon, the Word of God.
Hebrews 4:12  For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the  joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.  {KJV}

This was a really awesome read, and very clear in it's understanding.
I might add it is the renewing of our minds, as Paul says in Romans 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

As you know our struggle is not against flesh and blood, thats what stays in my mind and alerts me to the fight we have, and with the Armor of God we can fight the good fight and keep pressing on.

2 Corin. 10:3-5 ----  (3) For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (4) [For our weapons of our warfare are not carnel, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;] (5) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;    {KJV}

Jesus shows us that example against Satan in the desert. I my self cast out them thoughts, or anything that is not to the knowledge of God, vocally as did our Lord, and fill that void, quench it with the Word of God, as our Lord did, "vocally".   Just as you were saying and we keep our swords sharp by knowledge and undertstanding, the discerning of His Word, Amen.

"We don't become victors by conquering the enemy. we become conquerours by surrendering to Christ.  We don't become victors by our independence from Satan, but by our dependence upon God. Victorious lives come from victorious thoughts, thinking victorious thoughts come from setting our focus on God."  quote Beth Moore

Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. 

Seeking Him, thats the common sense strategy for our warfare.
Awesome post, praise Jesus for your service to Him, its all about Him,  Amen.

May the Lord bless thee and keep thee,
Only Always for Jesus
in the love of a brother
ggamble

[lightsavour]

Hi, I also greatly appreciated this topic, and probably because I've been thinking too much about our spiritual enemies recently, and this kind of put it all in place. Kind of like you were used by the spirit to combat the temptations. Since that is what we are still here for, I thank you for being here.

Now I have a deep question. I am going to be doing you a slight disservice however, because right now I dont know where the verse is I want to ask about.
  It is the verse where Paul says "Whether apart from the body, or sober we are Christians."    Perhaps that is overly-paraphrased as well.... but I am sure there is only one verse very much like this.

 My question is rather strong. If a Christian stumbles harshly and either drinks some alcohol, or takes a drug... since they cannot be separated from God.... then do they have the potential to see God clearer (depending on what they consume, and to what degree.)  My point is referring to the "vain imaginations" of the world that is really Satan trying to deceive us. Because we are Christians, when we fail we will be bombarded with the imaginations of evil like any person, but being separated unto God in heaven already then dont we also face the vitality of our spiritual place that much more?

 If you need an example then consider this : a young man has 2 glasses of wine with some friends of the world. They begin by talking casually and normally, but as they continue to get buzzed the friends start cursing more and saying derogatory jokes. Now the Christian sits there and feels the weight of his failure because he knows he could have avoided the feeling of semi-helplessness with the situation. Now lets say the Christian gets up and walks home to avoid failing anymore in front of his friends. As he walks home he is praying earnestly because of the vacancy he feels in his heart for the lack of purity. As he prays he gets Gods resolve that in fact what he did was a normal vanity of men throughout time, and that God honours his honesty, and overlooks his sin/vanity. Then a bird dips really low over his head and the boy feels almost closer to God as an individual thinker than he ever has before.

 Do you say that the boy has received a blow of deception, and that his prayer is not heard because he is slightly buzzed? Do you tell him that he has to wait until he is completely clear headed.. and probably longer like  until he sees drinking wine as the devil to be restored to communion with God?
 OR...
 Do you acknowledge that the devil uses whatever we grant him to use to throw us off communion? So if we were going to rebel anyways then perhaps spiritual advice given to the boy that isn't well thought out can be the devil, just as much or more than any glass of wine?


  There are verses throughout the bible that seem to permit drinking, and no verses that denounce marijuana smoking. All is left up to interpretation, and many wise men/women who have not studied this question have given answers without thinking that actually contradict the rest of the bible. In Jeremiah there are several references to incense being burned unto idols and it enraging God against the idol worshippers, basically because they could see His throne but were honouring evil in the process. As well there are verses about priests using incense in theyre personal prayers with God and receiving blessings for it.

 Now I am not advocating marijuana to be the incsence of the Bible, I really cannot be sure either way and it would be terrible to make a bold statement on such a volatile subject. So the reason I bring this up is because I have personally not been perfect in abstaination since becoming a Christian, and I can honestly say that I believe what Paul is referring to in the verse I hope someone (or perhaps I) can find, that no matter what we do now, we are Christians. I have heard rappers/movies refer to marijuana as incsence recently, and I'm asking this for real benefit to my life, and to the lives of the generation.

 Anyone who categorically states that marijiuana is included in the word Pharmacon(or whatever it is) and thus denounces my question as evil without having any understanding of what it feels like to be slightly buzzed, or slightly high... will completely miss an opportunity to really help a recent addict.
 My problem of verses really stems from the way Solomon and David talk about wine and feasting. They seem to say that it is ok in small doses at the appropriate times. (I understand for almost all Christians do not accept there is an appropriate time to drink or smoke, so dont get me wrong, I am just looking for alot of honest answers here.)
 Even Jesus drank wine all the time at meals, and only stopped because he was being called "a winebibber"(someone who tells fanciful stories when they are drunk.) He said He would not drink again until heaven because He knew it would stumble men. Also Peter and the Apostles were said to be drunk when they spoke in tongues, and theyre reply was not "we do not drink because it is evil", but rather "we are not drunk for it is not yet 3"

 So then iffff... some are willing to see my question is vital in this generation, because it is obvious we CANNOT categorically denounce wine (even spirits for someone grieving), then how do we point out marijuana in a verse?

 Perhaps now you would point me to the verses that say we should not be revellers. And I will agree myself that this is the most direct point God makes about the minds excess, but most having never smoked marijuana as a Christian would not be able to comment on revelling being a choice or a constant when you are "high", so to me those verses alone do not do justice to the question. Nor do combining the verses that "might" be referring to marijuana togther prove or disprove it to be inscence and not a drug.

 So I am looking for personal interpretations of the devil, and his strength to sway an aware and conscious mind for God simply because that mind chooses to smoke or drink.

tough question I expect, God bless you in your answers.
lightsavour

[Shammu]

Hello lightsavour, would the verse be; 1 Corinthians 11:28-30  28 Let a man [thoroughly] examine himself, and [only when he has done] so should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discriminating and recognizing with due appreciation that [it is Christ's] body, eats and drinks a sentence (a verdict of judgment) upon himself. 30 That [careless and unworthy participation] is the reason many of you are weak and sickly, and quite enough of you have fallen into the sleep of death.

The rest of your answer, I am going to have to pray about.
Bob

Edited to add; I know what I want to say, but not how to say it.

[nChrist]

Lightsavour,

First, there were accusations about Jesus Christ being a wine-bibber, but that's all they were - accusations. Much of the wine spoken of in the Holy Bible was nothing but fresh grape juice.

1 Corinthians 15:34  NASB  Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-8  NASB  But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

2 Timothy 4:5  NASB  But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

1 Peter 1:13  NASB  Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 4:7  NASB  The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

1 Peter 5:8  NASB  Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.   
___________________________

Alcohol and drugs for a Christian would be a testimony for the devil, not God. It's really just as simple as that. Real Christians should never be looking for excuses to do the things of darkness, the world, and the devil.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 115:13 NASB  He will bless those who fear the LORD, The small together with the great.

 

[lightsavour]

 Dreamweaver, good verse... but not actually the one i'm thinking on... so I will find it soon and bring it here.

 BEP, I agree with your verdict of day/night to rightly symbolize the addictions we should have, and the ones we shouldn't. Basically we should be addicted to the ministry of the Saints, and not to things that make us slave to other masters. That is a clear and consise answer indeed and I appreciate it. Buuuuuut

  I dont think you have answered my question. My question is not referring to slavery, but rather to the expediancy of our liberty. We do not continue to sin (Paul says God forbid MANY TIMES.) What I believe he means is that, being a new creature our hearts actually consider sin/vanity in a whole new light. Rather we consider sin IN LIGHT.... which is the new creature... seeing as really we cannot ever stop sinning until the end. The difference is that the Holy Spirit within us works against the slavery of sin like day against night, and our Lord being eternal day. So if we fail/sin/are vain, then we see the motive for what it is, and understand immediately that to follow that motive is evil, and to confess it and move on is being immediately back into communion. To me that is what Paul means, you can show me how Im wrong, and I will accept it if you can.

 So if "not sinning" is actually the new motive, then vanity is continual and my question is more pointed at being expediant about the beings that we are, and the things we express or consume in our beings.

 So I agree with your verses, but I dont believe they are referring to anything more than who we are slave to now. I agree we are slave to Jesus who is day/light, but I do not yet accept that this means full abstaination is demanded for full communion.
I found the verse
2 5:13 "Whether we be beside ourselves it is to God : Or whether we be sober it is for your cause."

 I guess i'm trying to focus the spirirtual spotlight on differentiating between sin/vanity, excess/moderation, expediant/not-expediant. I understand that being high, or drinking to BE social is completely false, but if you were high unto God (in nature), or drinking a glass of wine with 1 or 2 spiritual friends (when you are already social, and in fact deeply in fellowship with close friends) then perhaps the person or persons in the situation should never have to justify themselves because it does not constitute "stumbling."

  sorry, I just wasn't going to let you off that easy

lights out

[nChrist]

Lightsavour Said:

I guess i'm trying to focus the spirirtual spotlight on differentiating between sin/vanity, excess/moderation, expediant/not-expediant. I understand that being high, or drinking to BE social is completely false, but if you were high unto God (in nature), or drinking a glass of wine with 1 or 2 spiritual friends (when you are already social, and in fact deeply in fellowship with close friends) then perhaps the person or persons in the situation should never have to justify themselves because it does not constitute "stumbling."

  Smiley sorry, I just wasn't going to let you off that easy

lights out

Lightsavour,

I was let off that easy before I made the post. There is no way that a Christian can justify doing alcohol and drugs as a living testimony for CHRIST before men. So, look generally at the entire Holy Bible about Christian living, Christian testimony before men, and many other areas. However, the verses I gave you should be more than enough coupled with "the appearance of evil". If one has any interest in Christian testimony before men, the answers to these questions would be obvious before they are asked.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:7-8 NASB  "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.  "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

[lightsavour]

Tom, that is one way to answer the question. I'm looking for others.
God bless you.

[ggamble]

Hello Lightsavour,
 
I am the wife of ggamble.  I feel the Lord has put this on my heart to share my testimony.  I had used drugs since I was nine years old.  I have been saved since I was thirteen.  I backsled three times. The Lord called me back September 7, 2005.  See the Lord promises to never leave or forsake you, that is very true.  But you can grieve the Holy Spirit.  It takes obedience to empower the Holy Spirit.  I have studied alot to understand what the Lord wants from us.  The Lord wants us to deny ourselves, pick up our cross, and follow Him.  I am thirty-six years old, and have been delievered from all alcohol and all drugs.  I also listened to the lie that you can get stoned and still worship God.  Well brother that is the biggest lie from Satan that I have heard yet.  Your flesh is still wanting to have its way. As a sister in Christ I pray that the Lord lets you realize that you can not have a fogged mind and still have the mind of Christ.  Any thing that takes you away from God is Satan trying to keep you where you once were.  Do not listen to the enemy.  Please don't take for granted the grace of God.  I believe the Lord is already speaking to your heart that doing drugs or abusing alcohol  is not His will for you.  Now all you have to do is take a step of obedience and put it down.  The Lord will heal all areas of your life.  Also people in the world who do not walk in the Spirit are going to be able to be used by the enemy without even realizing it.   This is a letter from a person that was literally about took out by the enemy. The enemy is very tricky, he knows all your weaknesses and he hears what you talk about with your friends.  I pray you let this in your heart.  You have to be clear in the mind and body  for you to hear from God.  I have even seen things thinking it was from God, but I'm sorry to say I was deceived. The enemy will put all kind of thoughts that seem good and pure but are so far from truth. The enemy does this to keep your eyes off Jesus. I"ll leave you with this truth from Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ, it is not I who live but Christ who lives in me."  Jesus does not get high. Jesus only does the will of the Father in Heaven.
Just a thought I don't believe the wine 2000 years ago is the same as today.
Also incense are incense not weed. I don't believe they had weed 2000 years ago.  Hang in there I hope this letter put a new view for you. Trust your heart our Lord and Savior sent His Spirit to help us, let Him help you. Be alert on the traps the enemy sets for you. May God Bless you. Remember deny yourself, don't give into the flesh or the world.  Philippians 4:13 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."  I pray these scriptures put things in focus for you.  With the Love of Jesus...   The wife of ggamble. 


   My wife knows the lies of the enemy that kept her in them strongholds, from what I have read, of your post. It would seem your looking for ways to justify smoking pot or drinking or lets put it in another more to date term, coping a buzz, and still be if fellowship with the Lord. Number one, smoking pot is against the law, so why even try to look for something in scripture to ok the use of it. The fact for medical use, well, faith in Jesus heals, by His blood we have been healed, and thats another subject all together.
   We are to glorify God, getting high on anything; blocks hearing from God, the Spirit will not be in a heart that is double-minded, serving another master. The clue here is if one is looking for a way to justify something, the red flag should come up in discernment, saying that is not of the Spirit. Flat out, and this thread was dealing with crucifying the flesh, and renewing the mind, and a good rule is to bring everything in to obedience of Christ.
   You have to have the Holy Spirit in order to discern the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit would not have a Saint looking for a loop hole in the Word of God to justify a desire or lust of the flesh. We have to discern the spirits, a friend of the world does not have the Father in them. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against powers , rulers and authorities of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Justification should not be a question or the answer. If one was doing the things outlined in the start of this thread, the thoughts of getting high would have been casted out and the void filled or obedience to Christ with the use of scripture to crucify that part of the flesh would come from 2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
   Sound mind, would be what I would even go farther into in the fight and cast them thoughts out in the name of Jesus, vocally and come back with that scripture.
Discernment a must, Justification, twisting scripture, and taking it out of context, to find a reason to party. Not of God friend!
Deny yourself, like my wife said, and Satan is the father of lies, he wants you to take your focus off Jesus and God's will for you. He wants your worship, he has studied your every move since you came in the world, he knows how to work you, but with the Spirit and the sword of truth, no weapon formed against you will prosper. Jesus is the Word, Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.

Only always for Jesus
in the love of A brother
ggamble

[BLAD]

My thought about drinking or any other thing we do is

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. Romans 14:11

It is good neither to eat flesh,nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Romans 14:21


So as a Christian, we should also be aware eventhought what we do it just fiene with us. Coz' we might be putting a stumbling block or doing that others will commit sin.  Example: drinking wine or alcohol - eventhough we can drink a lot and not be drunk but if other see us and think anyway bother so and so is doing this so i guess it is good and then they di it (Drink even a glass of wine and be drunk).

Just try not to do things that others will lead away from God.

[Soldier4Christ]

I don't find this a coincidence at all, sister tiger_lily33 just posted this in "You Name It":


(got this in my email.. thought it was so heartbreaking.. really pins down to a fine point what drug abuse is about,, thought id share..)


METH.............................


This was written by a young Indian girl who was in jail for drug charges, and was addicted to meth.  She wrote this while in jail.  As you will soon read, she fully grasped the horrors of the drug, as she tells in this simple, yet profound poem.  She was released from jail, but, true to her story, the drug owned her.  They found her dead not long after, with the needle still in her arm.

 Please keep praying for our people to understand.   This Meth Drug is worse than most of us realize...

 My Name: "Is Meth!"

I destroy homes, I tear families apart,
take your children, and that's just the start.

I'm more costly than diamonds, more precious than gold,
The sorrow I bring is a sight to behold.

If you need me, remember I'm easily found,
I live all around you - in schools and in town

I live with the rich, I live with the poor,
I live down the street, and maybe next door.

I'm made in a lab, but not like you think,
I can be made under the kitchen sink.

In your child's closet, and even in the woods,
If this scares you to death, well it certainly should.

I have many names, but there's one you know best,
I'm sure you've heard of me, my name is crystal meth.

My power is awesome, try me you'll see,
But if you do, you may never break free.

Just try me once and I might let you go,
But try me twice, and I'll own your soul.

When I possess you, you'll steal and you'll lie,
You do what you have to -- just to get high.

The crimes you'll commit for my narcotic charms
Will be worth the pleasure you'll feel in your arms.

You'll lie to your mother, you'll steal from your dad,
When you see their tears, you should feel sad.

But you'll forget your morals and how you were raised,
I'll be your conscience, I'll teach you my ways.

I take kids from parents, and parents from kids,
I turn people from God, and separate friends.

I'll take everything from you, your looks and your pride,
I'll be with you always -- right by your side.

You'll give up everything - your family, your home,
Your friends, your money, then you'll be alone.

I'll take and take, till you have nothing more to give,
When I'm finished with you, you'll be lucky to live.

If you try me be warned - this is no game,
If given the chance, I'll drive you insane.

I'll ravish your body, I'll control your mind,
I'll own you completely, your soul will be mine.

The nightmares I'll give you while lying in bed,
The voices you'll hear, from inside your head.

The sweats, the shakes, the visions you'll see,
I want you to know, these are all gifts from me.

But then it's too late, and you'll know in your heart,
That you are mine, and we shall not part.

You'll regret that you tried me, they always do,
But you came to me, not I to you.

You knew this would happen, many times you were told,
But you challenged my power, and chose to be bold.

You could have said no, and just walked away,
If you could live that day over, now what would you say?

I'll be your master, you will be my slave,
I'll even go with you, when you go to your grave.

Now that you have met me, what will you do?
Will you try me or not? It's all up to you.

I can bring you more misery than words can tell,
Come take my hand, let me lead you to hell.
____________________________


I work with kids on a daily basis. Many of them are exposed to some sort of drug daily, many are users. Meth is one of the most horrible drugs there is but there are others that can control a person also. These things can and will take a hold of you and control you. If you are being controlled by something of this world then you are moving away from the control of the Lord by a choice of your own. Many of these kids will truthfully say that they can't resist it, that it is stronger than they are. This is true. That is why we need Jesus Christ in our lives. He is stronger than any of these things. With His strength to guide us and help us we can and will overcome anything. Put your trust in the Lord. Lean on Him in your times of weakness and you will be made strong. Don't wait until this demon already has another hold on you, resist it when it tries to get you.

We are told in the Bible:


Jam 4:6  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Jam 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jam 4:8  Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jam 4:9  Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jam 4:10  Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

[lightsavour]

Thank you ggamble's wife, ggamble hisself, blad, pastor roger.... all your comments are spiritually sound and awake testaments of Gods closeness to my situation. I thank you all from the core of my heart, if I fail like any time before then of course it will be my own choice, and even more a shame this time then times before.

 I do appreciate what you are saying as being correct. When I referred to an example it wasn't entirely accurate, I mean that has never happened to me (2 glasses of wine, then walking home) but I was referring to me. I am the one in the centre asking to questions of the bible. So it is me that wanted/wants the answers in regards to this topic, and thus I am very thankful your answers were so heartfelt and spiritually punctual (the poem was awesome!!)

 I hope I dont discourage any of you by saying you still haven't resolved my question. I also hope you dont see me as someone trying to justify smoking/drinking. I have smoked/drinked on and off (more smoking) about ten times now. When I first got saved Sept 2nd/2000 I stopped everything for 1 1/2 yrs. I was a perfect little boy (yes sarcasm is here) but when I started realizing how clearly my lack of perfection was the questioning of the bible was a big onslaught. I have such a rich background of teaching that I always just accepted it was right that you cannot make any willful mistakes and remain in Gods grace, when I realized you obviously can I immediately started asking God directly what he meant by "all things are lawful, but not all things are expediant."

 The fact that I have come here and asked the question is partially a result of me having quit smoking a mere 5-6 days ago, but the angle of my questioning has not changed since I first took the first puff. It is not a desire in me to be justified to smoke, but rather an understanding that I can obviously still hear God when I am high/drunk. I might be much less likely to listen to the voice, and moreso when I "party" (which I haven't done in years), but I most deffinately am not forgotten of God because I step away. Rather, since it is ME who steps away from God, then when I acknowledge this from within stepping away I know now (and have known) that I do not have to stay away from God even though the physical effects of my mistake can still be in the process of happening.

 I am positive that you are inferring I am attempting to justify myself. The only reason I say I am not, is because I have tried to justify myself many times during the past 6 years of weakness, and now I am trying to understand the spiritual science of abstaination, and compassion for those who are NOT abstaining. Does it do me justice to know many people I could help throug problems based on all the sound doctrine I DO know, just because I so recently have had weaknesses alive in my life? Why doesn't it make sense that the person who takes his problem to God and gets blessings after blessings to put it in its place... will eventually find the true questions of the generation? Thus, even if I am asking for someone to approach the volatile subject of differentiating between excess/moderation, expediancy/non expediant, sin/vanity/liberty... to help me... that doesn't mean at all that I am seeking any of you to justify my past. So please dont think I am.

 The questions I am asking have received such a resounding response of togetherness because you are all genuine Christians, and you like me know that based on the principle that we cannot teach it is ok to smoke or drink... we have to know it is not in Gods plan for our testimonies. But that does NOT mean that everyone's testimony is perfect, or even that you strong folk will not make graver errors in "not doing good" compared to my (or anyones) potential slipping to do "things that are not expediant." Thus what I am really asking is for you to become children in the questioning of the verses, not teachers. The verses will surely be alive in your lives in new ways from now until we are ushered into eternity, and in my opinion it is far better to dig deeper for the sake of our mutual youth, rather than fear the impact of what we might find by disecting them. .....

I say this especially because all of your answers are clinging to the idea that I am trying to justify myself. Maybe I am trying to grow our mutual appreciation of all of our justification in the Lord. I in fact am, and thus all I have really received thus far are peoples individual encouragement for ME to stay well in the Lord. I appreciate this, but as a disciple with a unique question pressed so firmly into my heart for the sake of my wavering generation (based on me stumbling, and then questioning alongside the entire information age) I must continue to seek the actual manna of God, and not just your opinions of what is better for me.

I hope this clarifies that I appreciate your fears for me, but that I am asking a much broader scoped question of direct proportions of importance based right in a few verses.

 Also, the people who say that the wine of old was grape juice do not read theyre bibles. The wine most deffinately got you drunk, read proverbs/ecclesiastes. Also, you must infer that the Lord only speaks about important things, and changed his demeanor only at times of importance. And surely he would have continued to drink grape juice if he was going to also teach that it is not what we put in our mouth, but what comes out that counts. I am not refuting there was grape juice, but the bible deals with all volatile things so as to make them pure knowledge for those that believe, but in regards to full abstaination there is very little that deals with it, only the spiritual form of it as 1 heart unto God completely.

 If I am evil for asking this question then please use verses that show my question as unprovoked by God, otherwise I will continue to see the verses you use be broad stripes of judgement at my present personality based on your inference of my hearts purpose... and nothing more. All im looking for is direction, and thus it must be direct, not general in a scope that most assuredly does not deal with all things that will happen in a persons life.


 I hold true that I first smoked weed in complete rebellion to God as a Christian, because I was weak to want to do it, and supposed it completely evil... so I juped off the tracks and starting notching away at my testimony so as to feel right living by Satans law of chaos. I have since smoked, felt the weak desire to obstruct my future path (saw it for what it was while still high)... and rather chose different paths that have also led me to quit, and to new parts of the bible being opened to me. I also admit to repeating my failures again and again, but will never see that I am ignorant of the devil anymore. I in no way am perfect, but rather am weak and can see how new knowledge gets added to me in spite of my weakness by me being honest and questioning the core of my own matters rather than accepting weakness, or the other opposite... accepting someone elses personaly interpretation of the verses without actually facing that they dont know what it feels like from here, nor do they know what verses to show.

 If I could be shown verses that make alchohol be evil than I would most deffinately think different. Rather as I read my Old and New testaments I see spiritual men referring to alchohol as "not expediant." Thus I see that it is something not to be done, but that most likely will be done by some... and the stronger halfs must not be stumbled by a weaker brothers questioning.... only by a strong brother leading them astray.

1st John 2:10 "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him."

2nd Corinthians 5:13 "For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God, or whether we be sober it is for your cause."

Matthew 11:19 " The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttunous, a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Act 2:15 "For these are not drunken as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

Psalm 31:6 "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto the bitter of soul. (darby)

Ecclesiastes 9;7-10 heres 7 "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart, for God now accepteth your works.

There are more verses than this too. They all refer to being drunk as evil, but to moderation in the happiness of living for the Lord as a beneficial thing. Verse 10 of ecclesiastes makes it very clear. We are nothing but vanity all the days of our life, and the only way to truly bring Glory to God continually is to keep yourself happy living for God with all that he has given you/us.

The verses are there folks, I did not make them up, the fact I am asking what the core of them means does not mean I am trying to justify myself. If I choose to drink a glass of wine to myself, or with a friend that wont stumble you (because you wont know, and I would be wise to haver that glass of wine with someone I can trust is not stumbled by me), so this is a question for mutual growth, not some vain pride of my own.

God bless. lightsavour out

[ggamble]

Greetings Lightsavour,

   What you have been given has been nothing but the truth of God. If your looking for a "Thou shall not smoke pot" or "Thou shall not get high". Your not going to find it worded that way. But you said you want to get deeper in the revelation of the Word.
The scriptures given you, go deeper, the understanding is there, prayfully go in it. If you want to know from someone who has been worst places then your 10 times getting high, well, here I'm, I've done more than just smoke pot. If you got conviction about it then there is the Holy Spirit. {Thine ears shall hear a word behind thee saying, this is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. Isa. 30:21  KJV}
   2 Peter 2:20,21,  tells what happens when one gets in a state of darkness by their own choices, how ever long it takes to get to that state well, thats depends on lots of things and the situation and the grace that kept you safe thus far. But one can go on in a state of rebellion, keep on smoking pot, or what ever. Then that will happen, trust me.
Then there is this thing called  "the fear of the Lord", which they failed to look at for what ever reason, to go their own way. I believe we can get quick judgments in order for us to Finely "SEE IT". From the Lord. That's in God's hands how it comes but it can come believe me, I've seen it, I've witnessed it. Because we are His and as Father, He will chaste us because He loves us, so we will "SEE IT".
Before we knowingly sin, we always get a warning to turn from the temptation. Before you lit up that reefer 5 days ago, you got something like that, did you not. {Is.30:21} kinda thing. Sometimes we get some seaweed on us, like Jonah, look at what happen there because he went his own way.

Heb 4:12  For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (KJV)

Pro 14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. {This one should be enough, to tell any brother, about if getting high is ok,   there are the soils, which one are you in? There are a lot of verses from our Lord, that say "If any man". Check them out.
And about hearing from God while your high, it takes some discernment of the scripture, which is a gift and is the Spirit giving you revelation of it. And I told you of a sound mind. The weed buzz, well, I have smoked, hash oil, cinse, Columbian redbud, Gold, in California through the 70's in the 80's hash in Germany, and more weed cloned here in the states, I've probably had it at all levels. But to say I had a sound mind, High, cannot say that. It's stronger than a six-pack will do to ya. And that's the bunk, ditch weed. I'm not proud of my choices, I was lost and kept high because of my choice, it's an idol, no matter how you look at it. It's illegal, so there's a no brainier, it's not God's will, no matter what the world says about it, The high is your master, Satan arranged it but you took it. And the Word says he who is double minded can expect nothing from the Lord, the Word is the truth, so were you hearing from God, only in conviction if it were so. Your in the enemies play ground being buzzed, sorry but that is the truth. And I cannot believe one will hear from God, high, the Word don't back that for gaining wisdom or understanding or revelation of His Word. 
   Your in sin, you are not going to hear anything, until you repent, and remember God knows your heart, if you are not going to walk right and not get high, and seek Him, then its not truly repentance. I've seen people do this also, then God woke them up, jail, harm, out of the blue urine test and lose their jobs, so perplexed  they think they're were losing their minds, its the enemies turn, he gets both sides of it, to kill, steal and distroy. 
If your hanging around people with familiar spirits connected to your weakness, then your in a place you should flee. Because your setting yourself up for a fall, the Bible tells about that also. An act of obedience would be to flee.
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
So what's this verse say about getting high, well, my flesh is weak to smoking pot, and my flesh wants to do it, {dwelleth no good thing} I want to do it {for to will is present with me} how to resist I cannot do it on my own, Paul says that next. which is true, we must pull or draw on the Spirit, how ever the Spirit brings us the scripture, do I want to glorify God, and will this bring joy to the Father, questions the Spirit might give me, in one way or the other.
Then there's that thing He told Peter, do you love me? Now do I get high? Do you see all that in that verse?
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Our only blessed hope, our Lord Jesus.
2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
I'm I going to be that dog or that sow?

{Part I}

[Shammu]

Now I have a deep question. I am going to be doing you a slight disservice however, because right now I dont know where the verse is I want to ask about.
  It is the verse where Paul says "Whether apart from the body, or sober we are Christians."    Perhaps that is overly-paraphrased as well.... but I am sure there is only one verse very much like this.

 My question is rather strong. If a Christian stumbles harshly and either drinks some alcohol, or takes a drug... since they cannot be separated from God.... then do they have the potential to see God clearer (depending on what they consume, and to what degree.)  My point is referring to the "vain imaginations" of the world that is really Satan trying to deceive us. Because we are Christians, when we fail we will be bombarded with the imaginations of evil like any person, but being separated unto God in heaven already then dont we also face the vitality of our spiritual place that much more?

Posting in the Devotional area tonight, here is the answer you want I believe.

Be sober, be vigilant

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

One Christian musician tells about getting to know some of the work crews in the auditoriums where his group's concerts were held. Those overseeing the performances preferred concerts-in-the-round, which meant extra work for the "riggers," who would have to walk the four-inch rafter beams to hang speakers and spotlights, often a hundred feet or so above the concrete floor. For this kind of work they are obviously very well paid.

"The fellows I talked to weren't bothered by the sight of looking down a hundred feet," says the musician. "What they didn't like, they said, were jobs in buildings that had false ceilings-- acoustical tile slung just a couple of feet below the rafters. They were still high in the air, and if they slipped, their weight would smash right through the flimsy tile. But their minds seemed to play tricks on them, lulling them into carelessness."

So it is as we go about doing the work of the Lord on the earth. Satan would love nothing more than for us to see that false ceiling a few feet below, giving us a false sense that there's not far to fall and egging us on to be careless as we work. But in reality, there's a looooooong waaaaaaaaaay dowwwwwwwwwn.

The devil is a crafty deciever. We give him a foothold and he can bring us a long way down, all the while, tricking us into thinking we're safe. It is crucial that we become ever aware of his sneaky tactics. The only reason he came is to lie, kill, and destroy us and the work of the Lord!

We must realize how easily we can allow satan to get that little foothold -- and just say NO! Say "NO!" to that little temptation by which you've been being lured! Say "NO!" to that little sin that you've been contemplating. Let's cry out to God today for our deliverance and be done with it! There is MUCH work to be done for the Kingdom!

AND

Don’t allow the crows to persuade you!

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

There is an old Persian fable of a hen, a mouse, and a rabbit who lived together in a little house in the woods. They shared all the work and lived in harmony. The chicken found the firewood, the mouse brought the water from a nearby brook, and the rabbit cooked the meals. Each did his work faithfully and contentedly.

One day, while the hen was out in the forest looking for wood, a nosy crow approached her and asked what she was doing. When he heard, the crow began caw, “That’s not fair! You’re doing the hardest part of the work! That rabbit and mouse are taking advantage of you!

The chicken continued about her work, but try as she would, she could not stop thinking about what the crow said. These feelings festered and festered, and by the time she got home, she was so upset that she burst out in tears, screaming, “It’s not fair! I do the hardest work of the three of us! That’s it! I’m not going to gather this heavy firewood anymore!”

Discontent spreads, as you know, and immediately the rabbit and mouse also began to argue that they had been doing the hardest work and that they were not going to do their jobs anymore either. The three argued until they were tired and finally decided to switch jobs – from now on the rabbit would gather the firewood, the hen would bring the water and the mouse would cook.

As the rabbit hopped into the forest for wood, a fox trailed him, caught him, and ate him. The chicken put the pail into the creek, but the current pulled the pail down under and the chicken with it. The mouse, while sitting on the edge of the big pot of soup, lost his balance and fell in.

Discontentment not only destroyed their happiness but their very lives.

We all have a job to do here. No job is greater than the next -- no person is greater than the next, no matter what those crows might tell you. We are all working for the same King and we can worship Him even while gathering firewood, if that’s what He’s called us to do!