I John 5:7 head ache.

[Kris777]

Ok first I just wanted to say that I posted this to learn the truth because right now I am confused. This was not posted to start a fight or anything like that.  I was just wondering about I John 5:7.  I wanted to know if  I John 5:7 in the KJV is spurious or not.

KJV I John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

I was looking through 6 other bible translations and it doesn't say what the KJV says.  They all basically say this:

NIV I John 5:7 "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."

The versions that I looked at were: New Living Translation, Amplified Version, English Standard Version, God's Word Translation, NIV, and New American Standard Bible.   

So if anyone of you guys would love to help me out I would much appreciate it.  Thanks in advance.

[Soldier4Christ]

Some claim that the KJV version was an "add in". It has however been found in the Latin Vulgate and a few late Greek manuscripts. Even if it was an "add in" by the monks that formulated the KJV it was and is substantiated by scripture elsewhere, including the verse that follows it 1jo 5:8. It is also found in these versions, some of which are older than the KJV. Many of the other versions that you mention came from other manuscripts that did not contain this portion.

The Geneva Bible:

1Jo 5:7  For there are three, which beare recorde in heauen, the Father, the Worde, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The 1611 KJV

1Jo 5:7  For there are three that beare record in heauen, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost: and these three are one.


Young's Literal Translation

7because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;


Wycliffe New Testament

7 For three be, that give witnessing in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost [For three be, that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, or Son, and the Holy Ghost]; and these three be one.

Worldwide English (New Testament)

7There are three in heaven who prove it is true. They are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit. These three are one.

[Kris777]

Thanks Pastor Roger.

Amplified Version: I John 5:8 says " and there are three witnesses on the earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides.]

I normally don't use this version. I just picked it up today when I was comparing bibles.  I still like my KJV.

I John 5:8 doesn't say right out that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, it just says that they are in agreement in unison.  Many people could agree on one thing but that doesn't make all of them one. Or am I not looking at this verse correctly?

You guys don't have to convince me that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, I know that and I have no doubt of that.  I am just wondering also if there are other places in the bible that say that they are one.  I know that Jesus says that he and the Father are one and that is partially why the Jews wanted to stone Him, but are there other places?

[nChrist]

Hello Kris777,

It's great to hear from you.

My thoughts are pretty close to those of Pastor Roger. There is a huge controversy about this portion of Scripture in the KJV. At the very least, it was a departure from the procedures that the translators were to follow.

Regardless, the contents of this Scripture is TRUE and is verified in other portions of Scripture. I have several articles about the translation and this Scripture. There are several things to remember when looking at this portion of Scripture, but the first thing is that the content is TRUE. The original 1611 KJV was primarily an update of the Bishop's Bible, and it had a HEAVY Catholic influence. Very few people have actually read what people call the KJV. The KJV had thousands of margin notes that offered alternate readings for the translation. AND, the KJV also contained the Apocrypha.

The Scripture in question was a result of a single translator who did not follow the procedures used by the other translators. He was using incomplete and multiple manuscripts. There is even a story about King James ordering the translator to include this Scripture. YES, some incomplete and partial manuscripts were used, including some that were used to translate the Latin Vulgate. We have many more manuscripts today, and those that were incomplete or partial for the KJV are now complete. Had the KJV translators followed their procedures and used only their preferred manuscripts for the New Testament, there would be a gap here, so they used other means.

Below is a newer translation that does use more complete manuscripts:

1 John 5:4 NASB  For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

1 John 5:5 NASB  Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:6 NASB  This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 5:7 NASB  For there are three that testify:

1 John 5:8 NASB  the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

1 John 5:9 NASB  If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.

I only put this in partial context, but you should easily see a connection to the same TRUTH. YES, this translation is more accurate than the KJV in this portion of Scripture, but the KJV still tells the TRUTH that is supported completely in numerous other areas of the Bible. If you were reading the actual 1611 KJV instead of probably the 1769 revision, this controversy is probably addressed in the margin notes. However, most people don't know they are using a KJV that represents countless revisions. You probably also have a KJV that does not include the Apocrypha. BUT, after all these years, the KJV is still ONE of the best translations of the Holy Bible.

Sister, I think you can do a Google search for "1 John 5:7" and find a ton of material on this controversy. Honestly, I view it as a moot issue since this is the TRUTH, and this same TRUTH is supported in other portions of Scripture. I hope this helps some.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Colossians 1:13-14 NASB  For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

[Kris777]

Thanks you guys.  Yes I know that the contents of the verse is true added or not.  I was just witnessing and used that verse as an example and that person said that it is a spurious verse.  I tried every verse I can think of to prove Jesus is God and that the Trinity is true.  I have compared bibles and such (still going to use that the next time I see them, I guess).  When do we shake the dust off of our shoes because that person will not except the gospel as true but rather wants to believe their own dissorted mess?

[Soldier4Christ]

I know that Jesus says that he and the Father are one and that is partially why the Jews wanted to stone Him, but are there other places?

Yes there are a large number of other places in the Bible that tell us this. I just happened to gather a number of them for something else that I am currently working on so I will list them here from my notes. These are just a few of those verses proving that Jesus and God are one. These particular verses also show that Jesus is God come to us in the flesh. There are also many other verses that show that the Holy Spirit are one with God and Jesus that I don't have listed here.


Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Mat 1:23  Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


1Jo 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



In the words of Jesus, Joh 10:30  I and my Father are one.

This is the words that made the Jews seek to kill Him,  Joh 10:33  The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.


Psa 18:31  For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:


Mar 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:


Again Jesus tells us that He is God, Joh 13:13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.


Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


1Jo 5:20  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


Jesus is called God by God the Father,    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[Soldier4Christ]

When do we shake the dust off of our shoes because that person will not except the gospel as true but rather wants to believe their own dissorted mess?

This question has come up quite a lot in the last week. When we have given them the word of God and they refuse to accept it there is nothing else that we can do accept to pray that the Lord opens their eyes and ears to His word. We must then go on to others that are willing to listen.

[nChrist]

Thanks you guys.  Yes I know that the contents of the verse is true added or not.  I was just witnessing and used that verse as an example and that person said that it is a spurious verse.  I tried every verse I can think of to prove Jesus is God and that the Trinity is true.  I have compared bibles and such (still going to use that the next time I see them, I guess).  When do we shake the dust off of our shoes because that person will not except the gospel as true but rather wants to believe their own dissorted mess?

Sister Kris,

I'm going to give you what I think is the only real answer to your question:  This must be a matter of prayer and leading by the Holy Spirit. I don't think that anyone can answer this question without being there themselves, praying, and asking God for guidance. Please don't get discouraged. God has promised that He will use His Word and it will not return void. God will keep working with what you have given this person. Maybe you could suggest some portions of Scripture to read and simply ask them to study them with an open mind. If they believe in prayer, ask them to pray that God gives them wisdom and guidance before they study. If you feel led that you have reached a dead-end, remember that you have planted a seed that might still sprout.

Sister, remember that we have a very large thread on this same subject. You might read the thread again, and copy/paste numerous portions of Scripture that definitely prove that JESUS is and always has been GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Proverbs 16:3 NASB  Commit your works to the LORD And your plans will be established.

[Kris777]

I have used a good number of those verses that Pastor Roger has referred to, at least the ones that I believe would help.  I have learned to kind of think like the person. (scary huh? )  Even that didn't help.  They just twist verses.  After I point out the other bible versions agreeing on the same thing I think I am going to stop unless something else is opened up by the conversation. 

Thank you so much guys for all of your help. I appreciate it.  Ya know, now I understand more about how well a blinded person is blinded.  It's like having an intelligent conversation with a twig. LOL

[Soldier4Christ]

It's like having an intelligent conversation with a twig.

The Lord's wisdom does do that.