King James Version 100% pure

[AVBunyan]

Thanks for your response Joel - I apprecaite the time and effort you put iin the post - that is more than most do.

You can't see where "faith of" is Jesus' faith and "faith in" is the sinner's faith?  forget teh Greek - what does the simple English say not what does it mean.

You cannot see that our faith cannot justify - only Christ's.  The modern versions are saying it is your faith in Christ which justifies - can you no see the difference?

This is a major difference in doctrine!

Can you not see where in I Cor. 1:18 the AV says "are saved" while the NIV and others make salvation a process by saying " beig saved"?  

This is a major difference in doctrine!

Forgive me up front but I'm not real concerned about "the Greek and Hebrew" for there are many "Greek and hebrew" authorities.  

My final authority is what I hold in my hands.

God bless

[2nd Timothy]

Don't you linguist get tired of arguing this?  

If God can speak through a donkey, surely he can use a few different languages to get His message across.  

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

BTW, that underline is not included in the KJV    

Know the author, know the word.  

Grace and Peace!

[joelkaki]

Thanks for your response Joel - I apprecaite the time and effort you put iin the post - that is more than most do.

You can't see where "faith of" is Jesus' faith and "faith in" is the sinner's faith?  forget teh Greek - what does the simple English say not what does it mean.

I do see that there is a difference between "faith of" and "faith in."  My point was not that those are necessarily one and the same.  My point is, the phrase in Greek could be rendered either way.  

You cannot see that our faith cannot justify - only Christ's.  The modern versions are saying it is your faith in Christ which justifies - can you no see the difference?

This is a major difference in doctrine!

You do not believe that our faith justifies us?  I believe that is firmly established by Scripture (not that any credit goes to us, because that very faith and the rebirth of the Spirit causing that faith comes from God).  

My argument is this:

1)  The Greek can be understand either as "in Christ" or "of Christ" depending on how you understand the genitive to be functioning.  
2)  Translating it "in Christ" is not an aberrant theological teaching.
3)  No doctrine is changed either way.

Can you not see where in I Cor. 1:18 the AV says "are saved" while the NIV and others make salvation a process by saying " beig saved"?  

I understand the difference between "are saved" and "are being saved."  But like I said before, salvation has past, present, and future aspects.  

You are deciding what you think the text should say and then are forcing that on whatever the Greek is.  The Greek supports "are being saved" although "are saved" is also a possibility.

This is a major difference in doctrine!

I disagree greatly.  There is not a major difference in doctrine--at least inasmuch as there is no doctrine changed.  Salvation is a one-time event and a process, therefore neither translation contradicts the doctrine of salvation.  They would just be emphasizing different aspects.  
 

Forgive me up front but I'm not real concerned about "the Greek and Hebrew" for there are many "Greek and hebrew" authorities.  

My final authority is what I hold in my hands.

God bless

Why are you not concerned with the Greek and Hebrew?  If you believe that the TR is inspired, then should not the KJV match up to it?

What about what I said concerning accuracy in translation and cross references?

Joel

[PeterAV]

[quote author=asaph One can use other versions and not be condemned. That is why the new covenant is of the spirit and not the letter.
2Co 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Therefore let us not be quick to judge other translations. Let us weigh what is being read by the Holy Spirit in our spirit.

Yes asaph,one can use other translations,but they are not going to always remain faithful to the truth.Why promote porridge for supper when you have every thing on the menu?Why go to the side of the road to look for diamond rings when the Jewlery store is right infront of you,on the same block?
The spirit is not at odds with the words of God.If it doesn't line up with the words of God,just what spirit is it?
God cannot lie.God calles the scriptures His words.Well it better reflect his perfection.Not the wanna bee like Satan that would like to be LIKE the Most High.Tricky,isn't he.He appears as an angel of light,but check it out carefully,and the deception becomes obvious.
Matthew 5:22 the modern versions take out "without a cause"
      that makes Our sinnless Saviour,a spotted,blemmished,non-acceptable sacrifice.For they have made him to be a sinner.
Teaching in the spirit is not needing to correct God's words.God's words are pure,very pure ,therefore thy servant loveth it.Teaching through the spirit verifies God's words.Amen.
I am not being legalistic or letter killing,at all.I am making a stand that was once delivered to the saints.No compromize.
 Now why would anyone want to change the best verse that attests to the fact that Jesus is God,manifest in the flesh.
 They change that to "he who".Well,we all are manifest in the flesh.Are they trying to be other religion friendly?That way they can insert their own guru's name.! Timothy 3:16.
And without controversy[get that one]great is the mystery of godliness:God was Manifest in the flesh,justified in the Spirit,seen of angels,preached unto the Gentiles,believed on in the world,received up into glory.
Plus the word for God is in all the Manuscripts but two,yes those two false Alexandrian manuscripts,pumped out by heretics and necromancers.Real trustworthy stuff.
How about this one;In Matthew 18:3
And said,Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,and become as littlechildren,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The new versions would like to contradict this by putting in Mark 10:24 Children,how hard it is to enter into the kingdom of God.
It is not hard,it is the easiest thing in the world to do;simply believe in him.
Imagine trying to teach that one to the Sundayschool class.Those poor children,what lies and confusion.
They also take the Omnipresence away from Christ Jesus our LORD in John3:13.
:13 No man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven.
These are the words of Christ Jesus,with his conversation to Nicodemas.
In 2 Timothy 2:15,we don't need to study the Bible any more.
Well,I could go on and on,but I spare you the verbage,but woiuld hope to stir you up to remember that every word of God is pure.

Plus I have not been quick to judge the other translations,but took a few years to read only other versions and compare them to the Holy Bible.I had boxes of them and read them to find out if there was something that I could gleen out of these NEW DISCOVERIES.all I discovered was it led to lies ,and confusion and every evil work.Can God use them,Yes,he can use Baalim's ass,so he can use imperfect vessels,but this is not the norm,nor is to be promoted,nor is to be an excuse,to use just these perversions.
We must weight the truth by the truth.Only the Holy Bible will confirm what spirit is in us at any given time.
We are not the final authority,but God's words are the final authority.We don't interpret the Holy Bible outside of comparing scripture with scripture,spiritual with spiritual.
If we go by any private interpretation we end up becoming what the Holy Bible calls Brute beasts,Foolish persons.
The Greek for Private in 2 Peter 1:20 comes from the word
"idiotes",we become idiots.
Help us LORD not to be fools and idiots by going along with all of these private interpretations of what each individual thinks such and such a word or passage should mean,but that we will allow the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit's convition that backs up God's words to lead us into a lifestyle of glad,willing instant repentance and obedience,all for the glory of God and for the most amount of good.Let us allow God's word to be the only rule of faith for all matters of faith and practice .

[asaph]

[quote author=asaph One can use other versions and not be condemned. That is why the new covenant is of the spirit and not the letter.
2Co 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Therefore let us not be quick to judge other translations. Let us weigh what is being read by the Holy Spirit in our spirit.

Yes asaph,one can use other translations,but they are not going to always remain faithful to the truth.Why promote porridge for supper when you have every thing on the menu?Why go to the side of the road to look for diamond rings when the Jewlery store is right infront of you,on the same block?
The spirit is not at odds with the words of God.If it doesn't line up with the words of God,just what spirit is it?
God cannot lie.God calles the scriptures His words.Well it better reflect his perfection.Not the wanna bee like Satan that would like to be LIKE the Most High.Tricky,isn't he.He appears as an angel of light,but check it out carefully,and the deception becomes obvious.
Matthew 5:22 the modern versions take out "without a cause"
      that makes Our sinnless Saviour,a spotted,blemmished,non-acceptable sacrifice.For they have made him to be a sinner.
Teaching in the spirit is not needing to correct God's words.God's words are pure,very pure ,therefore thy servant loveth it.Teaching through the spirit verifies God's words.Amen.
I am not being legalistic or letter killing,at all.I am making a stand that was once delivered to the saints.No compromize.
 Now why would anyone want to change the best verse that attests to the fact that Jesus is God,manifest in the flesh.
 They change that to "he who".Well,we all are manifest in the flesh.Are they trying to be other religion friendly?That way they can insert their own guru's name.! Timothy 3:16.
And without controversy[get that one]great is the mystery of godliness:God was Manifest in the flesh,justified in the Spirit,seen of angels,preached unto the Gentiles,believed on in the world,received up into glory.
Plus the word for God is in all the Manuscripts but two,yes those two false Alexandrian manuscripts,pumped out by heretics and necromancers.Real trustworthy stuff.
How about this one;In Matthew 18:3
And said,Verily I say unto you,Except ye be converted,and become as littlechildren,ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
The new versions would like to contradict this by putting in Mark 10:24 Children,how hard it is to enter into the kingdom of God.
It is not hard,it is the easiest thing in the world to do;simply believe in him.
Imagine trying to teach that one to the Sundayschool class.Those poor children,what lies and confusion.
They also take the Omnipresence away from Christ Jesus our LORD in John3:13.
:13 No man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came down from heaven,even the Son of man which is in heaven.
These are the words of Christ Jesus,with his conversation to Nicodemas.
In 2 Timothy 2:15,we don't need to study the Bible any more.
Well,I could go on and on,but I spare you the verbage,but woiuld hope to stir you up to remember that every word of God is pure.

Plus I have not been quick to judge the other translations,but took a few years to read only other versions and compare them to the Holy Bible.I had boxes of them and read them to find out if there was something that I could gleen out of these NEW DISCOVERIES.all I discovered was it led to lies ,and confusion and every evil work.Can God use them,Yes,he can use Baalim's ass,so he can use imperfect vessels,but this is not the norm,nor is to be promoted,nor is to be an excuse,to use just these perversions.
We must weight the truth by the truth.Only the Holy Bible will confirm what spirit is in us at any given time.
We are not the final authority,but God's words are the final authority.We don't interpret the Holy Bible outside of comparing scripture with scripture,spiritual with spiritual.
If we go by any private interpretation we end up becoming what the Holy Bible calls Brute beasts,Foolish persons.
The Greek for Private in 2 Peter 1:20 comes from the word
"idiotes",we become idiots.
Help us LORD not to be fools and idiots by going along with all of these private interpretations of what each individual thinks such and such a word or passage should mean,but that we will allow the Holy Bible and the Holy Spirit's convition that backs up God's words to lead us into a lifestyle of glad,willing instant repentance and obedience,all for the glory of God and for the most amount of good.Let us allow God's word to be the only rule of faith for all matters of faith and practice .

If the King James Version is the only word of God in the English language then God does not need us to prove it. His Spirit makes real the words of God. And His words will not fail. The annointing brings life to the believer. We do not need any man to teach us. Jesus be glorified!

When we speak we are to speak as Christ's ambassadors the very oracles of God. If I say "God loves you" with the annointing this is the oracle of God! I can say this with all authority because Jesus has given me this authority! If I say your sins are forgiven then they are forgiven. Jesus has given us this authority! The annointing is the source of authority and the annointing breaks the yoke upon us. The purpose of the annointing is that we would abide in Christ.

1Pe 4:11  If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1Jo 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

asaph  

[PeterAV]

If the King James Version is the only word of God in the English language then God does not need us to prove it. His Spirit makes real the words of God. And His words will not fail. The annointing brings life to the believer. We do not need any man to teach us. Jesus be glorified!
quote]
The infalibility and preservation of the scriptures IS part of the Words of God,and so must be taught.No less than any other thing in scriptures.The WHOLE council of God,Amen?
Teaching the scriptures is part of the things commanded to do,both in the Old and New Testament.
You have taken the verse out of context thinking that[or at least implying]teaching is no longer necessarry.Well it is.
I don't think that I need to show you all the verses on teaching the words og God and then compare it to the ones that say "Ihave no need of teachers".Just because He says he has no need of teachers does not nul and void the requisite that it is an integral part of the well being of the church.
Plus it is not IF the King James is the word of God.It is the word of God.I don't have to prove anything you say,since when?
Over and over,the people perverted the words of God,thereby perverting the ways of the People.So God had so send them the word of God again and again,and expose the lies they had sunk to.
All of the scriptures is showing people proving the scriptures to be exactly that,"The Words Of The Living God".
It is God that will preserve his words.He has lived up to his word.He has done what he promised in his word.I believe what God said in his word about his word.

I am not doubting the annointed preaching,whatsoever.That I welcome.But I will not abide lies to be propogated through fake bibles that are driven by copyright laws,and so get more and more rediculous.Not to mention the Satanic origin of the modern Bibles.
The LORD said,When I return,will I find Faith on the earth?
Faith commeth by hearing,and hearing by the word of God.
Fake bibles make for a fake faith.Now that is serious,don't you think?If I know these things and I say nothing,what kind of person would I really be then?
If a fireman saw a house burning down filled with many people and didn't do anything,not even warn the people and raise his voice,the community would be up in arms against this wretched man.
I have compassion for the church.I see them being compromized in a big way.
In Revelations,The people worship devils.Now how can this be?
The new bibles show us.They simply change the word devil to demon.If you take a look at your dictionaries,demons are not the same as devils.Demons are tutular divinities,geniuses.
A devil is an evil one.
Plus they make Jesus and Lucifer to be one and the same person.Compare Isaiah with Peter and Revelations.
The list is endless.That is because the New bibles are becoming agreable to the New Age doctrines.The New Ager's don't believe in the end of the world,they just hold to a series of cyclical ages.And the new versions are catering to them very nicely.
The Holy Bible uses two different words for the Greek word 'aion'.
Whenever the context refers to SPACE,then they use the word "world'.
Whenever the context refers to TIME,then they use the word "age".The modern versions don;t do this consistently and thereby they are promoting the concept of ages and ages.
So,we do need men to teach us,afterall.

[asaph]

If the King James Version is the only word of God in the English language then God does not need us to prove it. His Spirit makes real the words of God. And His words will not fail. The annointing brings life to the believer. We do not need any man to teach us. Jesus be glorified!
quote]
The infalibility and preservation of the scriptures IS part of the Words of God,and so must be taught.No less than any other thing in scriptures.The WHOLE council of God,Amen?
Teaching the scriptures is part of the things commanded to do,both in the Old and New Testament.
You have taken the verse out of context thinking that[or at least implying]teaching is no longer necessarry.Well it is.
I don't think that I need to show you all the verses on teaching the words og God and then compare it to the ones that say "Ihave no need of teachers".Just because He says he has no need of teachers does not nul and void the requisite that it is an integral part of the well being of the church.
Plus it is not IF the King James is the word of God.It is the word of God.I don't have to prove anything you say,since when?
Over and over,the people perverted the words of God,thereby perverting the ways of the People.So God had so send them the word of God again and again,and expose the lies they had sunk to.
All of the scriptures is showing people proving the scriptures to be exactly that,"The Words Of The Living God".
It is God that will preserve his words.He has lived up to his word.He has done what he promised in his word.I believe what God said in his word about his word.

I am not doubting the annointed preaching,whatsoever.That I welcome.But I will not abide lies to be propogated through fake bibles that are driven by copyright laws,and so get more and more rediculous.Not to mention the Satanic origin of the modern Bibles.
The LORD said,When I return,will I find Faith on the earth?
Faith commeth by hearing,and hearing by the word of God.
Fake bibles make for a fake faith.Now that is serious,don't you think?If I know these things and I say nothing,what kind of person would I really be then?
If a fireman saw a house burning down filled with many people and didn't do anything,not even warn the people and raise his voice,the community would be up in arms against this wretched man.
I have compassion for the church.I see them being compromized in a big way.
In Revelations,The people worship devils.Now how can this be?
The new bibles show us.They simply change the word devil to demon.If you take a look at your dictionaries,demons are not the same as devils.Demons are tutular divinities,geniuses.
A devil is an evil one.
Plus they make Jesus and Lucifer to be one and the same person.Compare Isaiah with Peter and Revelations.
The list is endless.That is because the New bibles are becoming agreable to the New Age doctrines.The New Ager's don't believe in the end of the world,they just hold to a series of cyclical ages.And the new versions are catering to them very nicely.
The Holy Bible uses two different words for the Greek word 'aion'.
Whenever the context refers to SPACE,then they use the word "world'.
Whenever the context refers to TIME,then they use the word "age".The modern versions don;t do this consistently and thereby they are promoting the concept of ages and ages.
So,we do need men to teach us,afterall.

Paranoia. God has preserved His Word in the Person of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. There is no giant conspiracy by Bible translators to usher in the New Age. It's all in your mind. Granted, some may do it for financial gain (why do you think bookstores sell the KJV?) but praise God the Word is getting out!
You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to "help" God preserve His Word. I love the KJB because God has blessed it to my spirit by His Spirit. Your misguided teaching only brings discord and strife and brings doubt to many a soul about the reliability of all versions including the KJB.

asaph

[Soldier4Christ]

There is no giant conspiracy by Bible translators to usher in the New Age. It's all in your mind.

You are right the conspiracy is by the Bible translators.

2Co 10:3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4  (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Your misguided teaching only brings discord and strife and brings doubt to many a soul about the reliability of all versions including the KJB.

This has already been done by many of these new versions. They themselves bring this doubt into mans minds by not being in agreeance with each other, through the deletion of many words and even whole verses that diminish the deity of Jesus Christ and in some instances even turn Him into evil itself.

You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to "help" God preserve His Word.

There is no trying here. God has already preserved His word. We as followers of Jesus Christ must merely be assured to teach His whole word accordingly, not allowing the doubts and incorrect teachings that many of these new translations put into mans minds.

[PeterAV]

Paranoia. God has preserved His Word in the Person of Jesus by the Holy Spirit. You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to "help" God preserve His Word.Your misguided teaching only brings discord and strife and brings doubt to many a soul about the reliability of all versions including the KJB.
asaph

God has preserved his words in a BOOK.I am not helping God preserving his words,those are just your halusinations.I said it before,and I'll say it again.There are lots of people that are completely compromized ,when it comes to God's word.
If it isn't God's words,then whose is it.I'll give you one guess.
Discord and strife?Discord and strife?According to who?Any person that will not uphold the truth of the scriptures and has already compromised.Many are deceived in these last days,and we need to warn them of the garbage that has infiltrated the churches.
Even Jesus caused discord and strife.Because of him.But God's word says ;Romans 16:17
:17 Now I beseech you,brethren,mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned;and avoid them.
It is not about watching out for people that cause divisions.
Its about marking them that cause divisions CONTRARY to the doctrine learned.
So stop falsly accusing me of defending God's Holy words.

My teachings are not missguided at all.It is the teachings of scriptures themselves.All I am doing is showing how lacksidasical the christian community has become in upholding the words of truth.
If there is no absolute,then,guess what?Thats right,anything goes.It all is relative,and oppinions.There must be a sole authortity.God's word is that.But many have gone about to pervert the pure words of God.

My words do not bring doubt upon the words of God,but it is the people that oppose the words of God that have already done that.They always question the words,by saying.."now the word would be better rendered"....Or. " the KJV is not quite up to date here,it should read" And on and on they go.They are the Bible critics,professionals at that.
Yes,I truthfully bring into question the New,modern versions that are built upon the heretics such as Origen,Jerome,Eusebius,and later ressurecrted in these last apostate days by the heretics and necromancers Westcott and Hort.Westcott and Hort were heavily involved in the occult during the production of the Greek manuscripts that they changed in over 5,000 places in the New Testament alone.They formed private clubs to do all this necromancy.
If you look in the New Age dictionary,you will Find Westcott and Hort mentioned as the Fathers of the Channelling movement.
I could go on for hours but I spare you the verbage.

A person ought to know if he has a real Bible in his hands so make sure to go to one of my earlier posts and copy down the small list out of hundreds more.This list shows any person if they have a real Bible or not.If there is even one varriation in one verse,you know it is not the Holy Bible.Inspired,infalible,pure,purified,perfect.It would then be just a man made fake fostered by Satan.

[PeterAV]

[quote author=Pastor Roger  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
This has already been done by many of these new versions. They themselves bring this doubt into mans minds by not being in agreeance with each other, through the deletion of many words and even whole verses that diminish the deity of Jesus Christ and in some instances even turn Him into evil itself.

You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to "help" God preserve His Word.

There is no trying here. God has already preserved His word. We as followers of Jesus Christ must merely be assured to teach His whole word accordingly, not allowing the doubts and incorrect teachings that many of these new translations put into mans minds.

Amen Pastor Roger.
I couldn't believe the words out of your mouth at first glance.I was going to say,"He took some of my quotes that I was just writing right out of my post.How did he do that?"
You took the words right out of my mouth.Good answers.

We are trying to help the church in this issue,so the church can again grow into the fulness of the stature Christ would have us to be.

[joelkaki]

So PeterAV, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that if only the church would as a whole return to the use of the KJV, the church would be revitalized and renewed?

Joel

[Soldier4Christ]

[quote author=Pastor Roger  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
This has already been done by many of these new versions. They themselves bring this doubt into mans minds by not being in agreeance with each other, through the deletion of many words and even whole verses that diminish the deity of Jesus Christ and in some instances even turn Him into evil itself.

You are spending an enormous amount of time trying to "help" God preserve His Word.

There is no trying here. God has already preserved His word. We as followers of Jesus Christ must merely be assured to teach His whole word accordingly, not allowing the doubts and incorrect teachings that many of these new translations put into mans minds.

Amen Pastor Roger.
I couldn't believe the words out of your mouth at first glance.I was going to say,"He took some of my quotes that I was just writing right out of my post.How did he do that?"
You took the words right out of my mouth.Good answers.

Scary or expected?

[asaph]

PeterAv,
You seem to use circular reasoning in your doctrine. It goes like this:
"I believe the NIV is the only Perfect Translation. The KJV deviates from the NIV therefore the KJV is evil."
I purposefully switched the arguement to favor the NIV so you could see clearly the fallacy of your stance.

The King James Version has minor differences from all versions, translations and manuscripts that came before it. As such, if the King James Version Only position is true, then the perfect word of God, and thus the Bible, did not exist until 1611 and then only in English. Not only do I reject this, it is inconsistent with the King James Version Only claims that God promised to preserve a 100% perfect version of his word.

If the King James Version Only position is correct in that the King James Version is God's perfect word, then it must be seen as a restoration. For the Word of God to have been lost until 1611, would have been a tremendous victory for Satan, yet I find this unlikely in light of Matthew 16:18. That the Gospel would be given a second time is ruled out by Jude 3.

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

asaph

[asaph]

PeterAV,
You said-"Westcott and Hort were heavily involved in the occult during the production of the Greek manuscripts that they changed in over 5,000 places in the New Testament alone.They formed private clubs to do all this necromancy.
Prove it!
Now read this:
Westcott, Hermes & the Occult
by James May[1]
While advocates of the King James Only position have hurled a myriad of accusations at Brooke Foss Westcott, none is perhaps more serious in nature than the assertion that he was a practitioner of the occult. The first bit of evidence produced by Gail Riplinger in support of this thesis is his membership in a student association at Cambridge University named the Hermes Club. Actually the club was first called the Philological Society and only later renamed Hermes. Gail, with James Sightler[2] and David Sorenson[3] close behind, would have us believe that this club was, to get right to the essence of the whole mess, a group of devil worshipers.[4] This idea is immediately obvious as New Age Bible Versions titles the section in which Hermes is discussed as “Hermes: Alias ‘Satan’,” and then proceeds to allegedly quote Helena Blavatsky to the effect that “Satan or Hermes are all one.”[5] I say “allegedly quote” because I have not personally looked up this reference, and I have learned NEVER to trust any quote from any King James Only defender without examining it myself. Two considerations supposedly demonstrate that the Hermes Club was concerned with the occult: The name of the club and the topics discussed in the club meetings. The only 19th century documentation that has been presented concerning the nature and activities of the Hermes Club is found in the biography of Westcott written by his son Arthur. Since this material is somewhat difficult to secure, I have reproduced the account of the club in full in the next three paragraphs:
Westcott’s most intimate friends during his career as an undergraduate were J. Llewelyn Davies, C. B. Scott, and David J. Vaughan. These four, together with W. C. Bromhead, J. E. B. Mayor, and J. C. Wright, were the original members of an essay-reading club, which was started in May 1845, under the name of “The Philological Society." At a later date the society took the name of “Hermes." The society met on Saturday evenings in one or other of the members' rooms, when a paper was read, and a discussion, not infrequently somewhat discursive, ensued. The following were the subjects of papers read by my father:-- The Lydian Origin of the Etruscans; The Nominative Absolute; The Roman Games of (or at) Ball; The so-called Aoristic Use of the Perfect in Latin; The Funeral Ceremonies of the Romans; The Eleatic School of Philosophy; The Mythology of the Homeric Poems; The Theology of Aristotle; Theramenes.
On two joyful occasions the ordinary business of the society at the weekly meeting was suspended--the first being 7th March 1846, when Westcott was elected to the “Battie" Scholarship; the second, 6th March 1847, when Scott was elected to the "Pitt” Scholarship. In 1847 A. A. Vansittart and J. Simpson became members of the club. At times the society's philosophic gravity relaxed, as witnesses the following entry in the minute-book under date 8th May 1848: "Mr. Vaughan having retired to his rooms, and Mr. Davies within himself, the rest of the society revived the ludus trigonalis [a Roman game of ball], and kept it up for some time with great hilarity." Presumably Westcott took his share in this hilarious revival, though it did not form part of the discussion on his paper concerning Roman Games of (or at) Ball.
The last recorded meeting of the society took place on 15th May 1848. On that occasion the character of Theramenes was discussed in Westcott's rooms. Before separating for the evening the society chose the character of Philopoemen as the "next topic of discussion." So ends the minute-book. Whether the society survived to discuss the character of Philopoemen or not is not apparent. Probably not, for the four faithful members of the club had now graduated. There is an entry in the minute-book which indicates that in March the end was near. Above the initials B. F. W. occur these words: "Let me here offer my heartfelt tribute to a society from which I have derived great pleasure, and, I trust, the deepest good-not least under the feelings of today." The subject that evening had been "The Condition of Women at Rome”; but the discussion had wandered over a wide field, and, in its latest stages, was concerned with a comparison of Plato and Aristotle.[6]
It hardly needs to be said that the description of this club as given in Westcott’s biography strikes the reader much differently than the material found in Riplinger, Sightler and Sorenson. The term philological, as used in the original club name, refers to the study of classical Greek and Latin literature, religion and culture, and the description of the activities of the club seems to very much fit this title. So why the change to “Hermes”? Should we see some hidden occult significance in this? To disarm Westcott’s accusers on this point we must only show that “Hermes” has attributes and associations which are not connected to the occult and which would reasonably explain the choice of the club’s title. To this end we note that Hermes was the messenger of the gods and was himself the god of eloquence:
In the Odyssey, however, he appears mainly as the messenger of the gods and the conductor of the dead to Hades. . . . He was also god of eloquence and presided over some kinds of popular divination.[7]
Interestingly this usage is also reflected in the pages of the New Testament:
And they began calling Barnabas, Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker (Acts 14:12, New American Standard Bible).
The word “Hermes” in this verse is transliterated from Greek into English by the NASB and other modern translations. The KJV obscures the use of the name by following the Latin and thus translates the Greek “Hermes” as “Mercurius.” The obvious point is that the people in Lystra did not call Paul Hermes because they believed that he was Satan or because they thought that he was somehow connected with the occult. No, he was the chief speaker, and it seems most likely that the young Cambridge students called their club Hermes because they considered themselves to be eloquent speakers in their meetings.
There is a second occurrence of Hermes in the New Testament in Romans 16:14:
Salute Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermas, Patrobas, Hermes, and the brethren which are with them (Romans 16:14, King James Version).
The name Hermes in Romans 16:14 is identical to the name in Acts 14:12. Those who read no Greek will be helped by knowing that it has the Strong’s concordance number 2060 assigned to it. It appears a very safe assumption that the early Christians did not agree with Gail Riplinger that “Hermes” = “Satan”. The first century church would not have accepted anyone into its midst with a name associated with the devil, but would have demanded that the name be changed, which leads us to conclude that the use of the name Hermes provides no reasonable indication that the Cambridge club was associated with the occult.
Riplinger and Sightler also imply that the topics covered by the Hermes Club in its meetings indicate an occult connection. To this end they chose only the most sinister sounding topics to relate to their readers. The full list of topics presented by Westcott, as given in his biography, is as follows:
1.    The Lydian Origin of the Etruscans
2.    The Nominative Absolute
3.    The Roman Games of (or at) Ball
4.    The so-called Aoristic Use of the Perfect in Latin
5.    The Funeral Ceremonies of the Romans
6.    The Eleatic School of Philosophy
7.    The Mythology of the Homeric Poems
8.    The Theology of Aristotle
9.    Theramenes
Of these topics Riplinger mentions only numbers 5, 6, 7 and 9; Sightler only number 6. The others perhaps sounded too innocuous for a band of devil worshippers. It takes little research in a good encyclopedia to confirm that these are indeed subjects that young classical scholars might discuss. Since these papers have not been presented to us, we have no way of knowing the opinions which Westcott expressed toward his topics. For example, we do not know what aspects of Aristotle’s theology were discussed, and we do not know what criticisms were offered. In other words, and to get right to the point, the Hermes Club provides no indication whatsoever that Westcott was involved in the occult.
Addendum: An Important Correction
With what appears to be but one exception, quotations in Riplinger, Sightler and Sorenson associating the god Hermes with the occult are completely irrelevant and do not prove that Westcott wished such an identification. The information below first appeared in Riplinger and was then copied by Sorenson:
The designation [Hermes] is derived from “the god of magic. . .and occult wisdom, the conductor of Souls to Hades,. . .Lord of Death. . .cunning and trickery, (Riplinger, p. 400).
The latter title [Hermes] was so named by Westcott because it derived from “the god of magic. . .and occult wisdom, the conductor of Souls to Hades,. . .Lord of Death. . .cunning and trickery, (Sorenson, p. 175).
While both versions claim to relate Westcott’s motives, the second by Sorenson contains a particularly egregious error. Instead of referencing Riplinger as his source, Sorenson here has a footnote (number 36) informing his readers that this information was derived from volume 1, page 47 of the biography of Westcott written by his son. This statement would indeed be a strong indictment if it had been written by Westcott’s son, but it was not.[8] Sorenson’s footnote is simply wrong. There remains not one shred of evidence that Westcott chose the name Hermes for any reason except that Hermes was the god of oratory.
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Footnotes to the above article: Westcott, Hermes and the Occult

[1] Copyright 2005, James Richard May. This paper may be reproduced in its entirety for free distribution. All other rights reserved.

[2] James Sightler, A Testimony Founded For Ever (Greenville, SC: Sightler Publications, 1999), pp. 103-4.

[3] David H. Sorenson, Touch Not The Unclean Thing (Duluth, MN: Northstar Baptist Ministries, 2001), p. 175.

[4] Sightler does not make the statement as directly as Riplinger, but no one can miss his idea. Sorenson does not take his accusation quite this far.

[5] Gail Riplinger, New Age Bible Versions (Ararat, VA: A.V. Publications, 1993, eleventh printing 2000) p. 400.

[6] Arthur Westcott, Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott (London: Macmillan and Co., 1903), Vol. I, pp. 46-48.

[7] “Hermes” The Encyclopedia Britannica (Electronic Edition, 2001).

[8] I have, of course, read Westcott’s biography and have examined this page in particular.

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