Is Jesus God? - Part Two

[asaph]

Eph 5:31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
1 Cor 6:16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
2 Cor 3:17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Read carefully the above verses. The Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit. He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit. The oneness of Christ and the church is just as real as the oneness of a husband and wife. There is a life union here. Our lives are indeed one with the Lord Spirit. Not theoretically but actually.
When Jesus rose from the dead he became the quickening pirit
1 Cor 15:45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
I purposefully capitalized spirit for the Lord is that Spirit. And Paul says in Eph 4 that there is one Spirit. Therefore Jesus is that Spirit. When Jesus rose from the dead His humanity became an element within the Spirit. He is still a man and He is also the Spirit. Other wise we would have to say there are two Spirits. but we know there is one Spirit.
There is the element of humanity forever in the Godhead. Through incarnation, death, resurrection and ascension this process of bringing man into God has been accomplished.
Because of this it is possible for us to enter into this wonderful God.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Think of it! We are one with God! (without actually becoming the Godhead). We are partakers of the divine nature. Jesus is the divine nature and we are partakers of Him.
God is in the process today of bringing many sons to glory. Those of us who have placed our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are in the Father and in the Son by the Spirit.
Gal 3:26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Enjoy this union!

asaph

[felix102]

Amen!

Lord Jesus, we unite ourselves with you! Be one with us in spirit. Take over our mind, emotion and will. Thank you Lord that you want to be one with us. Give us your divine nature Lord.

[john vencer]

-Jury

I am assuming that since you are using " Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." shows that you accept that passage as truth.

Jesus claim to deity could not have been more clear in that passage.  Jesus was not just merely claiming to be the son of God He was claiming equality to God.  The concept using the term I AM was significant to the Jews because in Moses first encounter with God, God identifies Himself as I AM who I AM Exodus 3 vs 14. Jesus was not claiming God's foreknowlege of
his existence.  He was claiming to be God.  

You may argue that the Jews took it out of context...that line or reasoning brings up an interesting quandry.  If Jesus was a  only God's chosen man as you claim, then morally He cannot lie.  So He either A.) knowingly mislead the Jews by making a statement knowing full well how they would interpret it without clarifying his position AKA he lied therefore he cannot be a moral man B.) He spoke the truth and you must accept His claim.

In similar fashion when confronted by the Pharisees and Sadducees before crucifixion His response was "I AM " Mark 14 vs 62 once again you are confronted by His claim either A.) knowingly mislead the Jews by making a statement knowing full well how they would interpret it without clarifying his position AKA He lied and died for His lies.  B.) He spoke the truth and you must accept His claim.

You are correct in not finding alot of direct claims made  by Christ to be God.   However the times He does claim His deity could not even be more clear. There are alot of allusions and that is intentional because the whole point of Christianity is to force the individual to make a personal decision on who Christ is.

If you will not accept a scriptual argument maybe you will accept a metaphysical argument, Christ needs to be God and existing outside of time in the begining, the here and now and the end.  The OT concept and understanding of the sacrificial lamb is that any sin committed up until the sacrifice of lamb is covered by the blood-propitiation. It does not cover sins that will be commited in the future.  If Christ only existed as a temporal man, then Christians after the crucifixion are pretty much out of luck.  Christ has to come again and again to die, which is unscriptual.  The only way for Christ to die once and be ressurected and have that death have any significant meaning,  a truth that spans the begining of human history to today and to the end is for Christ to be God.  For the death to take place in time and outside of time. The paradox pr mystery of Christianity is that when Christ died on the cross, He died out through out all time as well and when He was ressurected he was ressurected through out all time as well.  The existence of both states concurrently can be found in quantum physics in the metal experiment known as Schroders Cat.

Or maybe you will accept a scientific or natural model of the trinity.  You are saying that God cannot exist as three seperate persons.  You are claiming it is illogical.  How do you explain h2o then?  liquid, solid and gas.  When it is a liquid aka water its still made up of h2o, when it is solid aka ice its still made up of h2o, when gas its still made up of h2o.  Each one having distinctly separate  propperties.  Water is not Ice, and Ice is not Gas.

Lastly from a historical argument the claim of Christian Orthodoxy requires the acceptance of the trinity.  It is a concept that has withstood 2000 years of Christian history.  If God is indeed God, then don't you think He would protect the integrity of His word?  Are you making claims to have this sudden divine revelation that you are correct and the rest of orthodox Christianity is wrong?  If that is true what does that teach about the nature of God?  God lies?  God allows people to be decieved?

Its good to ask questions that is the only way we will learn but we also have to intellectually honest when presented with the facts. That is the true choice of being a follower of Christ, Who do you say He is?

[asaph]

Thankyou john vencer for that good explaination. In case that is not enough I'd like to add that although we cannot fully understand this mystery of the trinity of the Godhead, we can receive and enjoy this mysterious God. We cannot understand, but we can enjoy! In former days men had no knowledge of vitamins, though they greatly enjoyed their benefit. Praise the Lord! The Triune God is not for us to understand, but to enjoy. All that He is for us to enjoy is revealed in the Scriptures; we can simply accept it according to scriptural revelation. Although we cannot fully understand it, yet we may, according to all that is declared in the Scriptures, accept whatever is said.

For instance, John 1:1 says, "The Word was with God," and it also says, "The Word was God." Based upon the statement "the Word was with God," the Word and God are two distinct entities. But the declaration "the Word was God," clearly indicates that the Word and God are one. Are they two then, or are they actually one? We cannot clearly explain such a mystery. But we can accept what is said in the Scriptures just as it is.

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 3:17 says, "The Lord is the Spirit," and it also says, "The Spirit of the Lord." "The Lord is the Spirit" tells us that the Lord and the Spirit are one. Thus, in the following verse the Lord is called "the Lord Spirit." ("The Spirit of the Lord" is "the Lord Spirit" in the original text.) "The Lord Spirit" as a compound name is used to show that the two, the Lord and the Spirit, are one. But the title, "the Spirit of the Lord," clearly indicates that the Lord and the Spirit are two. We really cannot thoroughly understand this kind of statement. But since the Scriptures have said it, we must accept it as such.

asaph

[asaph]

Think about this-
"The Scriptures in many instances and in many ways tell us that God is uniquely one. Both in the Old Testament and in the New, there are many passages which declare this. We select here just a few:

First Corinthians 8:4: "There is no God but one."

Isaiah 45:5: "I am Jehovah and there is no one else;/Besides Me there is no God." In verses 6, 21, and 22; 46:9; and 44:6, 8, we also find the same words.

In these passages God repeatedly says, "There is no God besides Me." He does not say, "There is no God besides us," but, "There is no God besides Me." "Me" is singular, only one. These repeated declarations of God strongly prove that God is uniquely one.

Psalm 86:10: "Thou art God alone." Here it does not say, "Ye are God alone," but, "Thou art God alone." This also proves that God is only one. It is "Thou," not many, as would be signified by "Ye."

That God is one is a clear and definite revelation of the Scriptures. But in Christianity, besides this orthodox teaching or interpretation, which is based on the clearly stated revelation of the Scriptures, some say that there are three Gods—the Father is one God, the Son is one God, and the Spirit also is one God, and these three become one corporate God. Individually speaking, they say, there are three Gods; corporately speaking there is one.

Others say that there are two Gods—the Father is one, and the Son also is one, but the Spirit is not, because the Father has His person and the Son also has His person, but the Spirit is only a power, a means, just like electricity, and has no person.

Such statements concerning the existence of three Gods or two Gods are contradictory to the fundamental revelation of the Scriptures; therefore, we should not accept them. We must stand absolutely on the scriptural revelation and believe that God is one."- Witness Lee

asaph

[asaph]

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

In Isaiah 6:8 God says, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" God speaks of Himself on one hand as "I" and on the other hand as "us." This proves that "I" is "us" and "us" is "I"; "I" and "us" are identical. Then is God singular or plural? If you say He is plural, He says "I." If you say He is singular, He says "us." This is rather mysterious and difficult to understand; so we just take the scriptural revelation as it is.

Furthermore, in Genesis 1:26; 3:22; and 11:7, God also speaks of Himself as "us." The unique God, in His divine words, has many times spoken of Himself as "us." This is really a mystery difficult to comprehend. But we must believe that this is due to the matter of the three persons of the Godhead—the Father, Son, and Spirit.- Witness Lee

asaph

[asaph]

Each person in the Godhead is described as:

eternal
                               Father
Rom 16:26  but now has been made plain, and by prophetic Scriptures, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
                                 Son
Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. - Jesus Christ
                                 Spirit
Heb 9:14  by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!



Omnipresent (Everywhere)
                             Father
Jer 23:24  Or can anyone hide himself in secret places so that I do not see him, says Jehovah? Do I not fill the heavens and the earth, says Jehovah?
                              Son
Eph 1:23  which is His body: the fullness of the One filling all things in all;
Eph 4:10  He that came down is the same who also went up above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.
                            Holy Spirit
Psa 139:7  Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from Your face?



Omniscient (All Knowing)
                              Father
Act 15:18  All His works are known to God from eternity.
                                Son
Joh 21:17  Thirdly, He said to him, Simon son of Jonah, do you love Me? Peter was grieved that He said to him a third time, Do you love Me? And he said to him, Lord, You perceive all things, You know that I love You! Jesus said to him, Feed My sheep!
                               Spirit
1Co 2:10  But God revealed them to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.



Creator
                               Father
Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;
                                 Son
Col 1:16  For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible; whether thrones, or lordships, or rulers, or authorities, all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Joh 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
 
                                Spirit
Job 33:4  The Spirit of God made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Job 26:13  By His Spirit the heavens were beautiful; His hand pierced the fleeing snake.



Source of Eternal Life
                                Father
Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
                                  Son
Joh 10:28  And I give eternal life to them, and they shall not perish to the age, never! And not anyone shall pluck them out of My hand.
                                Spirit
Gal 6:8  For the one sowing to his flesh will reap corruption of the flesh. But the one sowing to the Spirit will reap everlasting life from the Spirit.



This is evidence that Jesus is God!

asaph
 

[asaph]

1. The Father is God. First Peter 1:2 says, "God the Father." Ephesians 1:17 says, "God...the Father of glory." These verses tell us that the Father is God.

2. The Son is God. Hebrews 1:8 says, "Of the Son he saith...O God." John 1:1 says, "The Word was God." These tell us clearly that the Son is God.

3. The Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4 says, "Why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." This word definitely tells us that the Spirit is also God.

Therefore, the Scriptures clearly reveal to us that all three—the Father, Son, and Spirit—are God. This does not mean, however, that They are three Gods. We have already seen how the Scriptures tell us clearly and definitely that God is only one. Although there are three—the Father, Son, and Spirit—yet the three are not three Gods, but one. This is really a mystery! It is unsearchable! But praise the Lord, we can simply receive and enjoy this mysterious One according to what the Scriptures have said!

asaph

[asaph]

Isaiah 9:6 says, "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...Mighty God, Everlasting Father." In this verse, the "Mighty God" matches the "child," and "Everlasting Father" matches the "son." Yes, He is a child, yet He is the Mighty God. The child who was born in the manger in Bethlehem was the Mighty God. Since the child and the Mighty God are one, so also the Son and the Everlasting Father are one. The Son is the Eternal Father. It is indeed difficult to fully explain this matter, yet the Scriptures have so said. "Unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called...Everlasting Father." Does this not plainly say that the Son is the Father? If the Son is not the Father, how could the "son" be called the "Father"? If we acknowledge that the "child" of which this verse speaks is the "Mighty God," then we must also acknowledge that the "son" of which this verse speaks is also the "Everlasting Father"; otherwise, we are not believing the clearly stated revelation of the Scriptures. But we do deeply believe that according to the words here the Lord Jesus who became the child is the Mighty God; and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father. Hallelujah!

John 14:7-11 says, "If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." In these verses the Lord clearly reveals to us the mystery that He and the Father are one; He is in the Father and the Father is in Him; when He speaks, it is the Father who works; when men see Him, they see the Father; when they know Him, they know the Father, because He is the Father; He "and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

asaph

[asaph]

Second Corinthians 3:17 says, "The Lord is the Spirit." The "Lord" spoken of here, of course, is the Lord Jesus; and "the Spirit," of course, is the Holy Spirit. Does this not clearly and definitely tell us that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit? Our Lord is the Holy Spirit. He is the Father, and He is also the Spirit. He is everything!

Many brothers and sisters have Darby's New Translation of the Bible. Darby was considered the one with the greatest knowledge of the Bible in the previous century. Some called him the king of expositors. In his New Translation of the New Testament, he puts the verses preceding 2 Corinthians 3:17, from verses 7 through 16, in parentheses, indicating that verse 17 immediately follows verse 6. The last part of verse 6 says, "The spirit giveth life." Therefore, according to Darby's realization, verse 17, "The Lord is the Spirit," indicates that the Lord is that Spirit which gives life, as mentioned in verse 6, and this Spirit which gives life, of course, is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this proves that Darby acknowledged that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

Besides Darby, according to our knowledge, there were the following persons who, in their writings, based on 2 Corinthians 3:17, also acknowledged that the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit:

1. In his book The Spirit of Christ, chapter twenty-five, Andrew Murray says, "It was when our Lord Jesus was exalted into the life of the Spirit that He became 'the Lord the Spirit.'...The disciples knew Jesus long, without knowing Him as the Lord the Spirit....There may in the ministry be much earnest gospel preaching of the Lord Jesus as the Crucified One, without the preaching of Him as the Lord the Spirit....It is as the knowledge and acknowledgement of Christ as the Lord the Spirit, and of the Spirit of Christ as changing believers into His likeness, lives in the Church, that the ministry among believers will be in Life and Power,—in very deed, a Ministry of the Spirit."

2. Henry Alford (an authority on the meaning of Greek words of the New Testament) in The New Testament for English Readers, vol. II, page 265, says, " 'The Lord' as here (2 Cor. 3:17) spoken of, 'Christ,' 'is the Spirit,' is identical with the Holy Spirit....Christ, here, is the Spirit of Christ."

3.Marvin R. Vincent in his Word Studies in the New Testament, vol. III, page 308, says, "The Lord Christ of verse 16 is the Spirit who pervades and animates the new covenant."

4. J. Oswald Sanders in his Spiritual Maturity (published by Moody Press), page 144, says, "William Barclay comments: Paul seems to identify the Risen Lord and the Holy Spirit. We must remember that Paul was not writing theology; he was setting down experience. And it is the experience of the Christian life that the work of the Spirit and the work of the Risen Lord are one and the same. The strength, the light, the guidance we receive come alike from the Spirit and from the Risen Lord. It does not matter how we express it so long as we experience it."

We are not the only ones who have seen from the revelation in 2 Corinthians 3 that the Lord is the Spirit; a number of spiritual men have seen it as well. Christ the risen Lord today is the life-giving Spirit. That is why the apostle Paul called Him the "Lord Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:18, Gk.). He is not only the Lord, but also the Lord Spirit.- Witness Lee

asaph

[nChrist]

AMEN BROTHER ASAPH!

I enjoyed your posts. The only conclusion that can be reached with the Holy Bible is JESUS CHRIST is Almighty God - The Creator and The Holy Spirit. The three are ONE!

Brother, we have the absolute proof in our hearts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 25:4  Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

[asaph]

AMEN BROTHER ASAPH!

I enjoyed your posts. The only conclusion that can be reached with the Holy Bible is JESUS CHRIST is Almighty God - The Creator and The Holy Spirit. The three are ONE!

Brother, we have the absolute proof in our hearts.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 25:4  Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

So true Brother,
"The point is that God reveals Himself to be triune, first, because He is true and faithful in His testimony of Himself, and, second, because this economical revelation comforts our hearts and confirms within us that God is imminently knowable and experiential precisely because He is triune. As such, the doctrine of the Trinity is not a minor point in the Bible." John Pester

In other words we could not know God in us, we could not be one with Him if He were not triune.

The following verse is a wonderful benediction that confirms this!

2Co 13:14  The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

asaph

[nChrist]

Jury,

You're getting closer. Just open your eyes and read a few more Scriptures. I'll give you a hint.

"I AM"  IS

ALMIGHTY GOD!

You just made an important discovery.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 100:3  Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

[nChrist]

The blind man who uttered "I AM" [ego eimi] is also the Almighty God?

Again, the Lord who introduced Himself as "I AM" is the God our Father.

And Jesus, who uttered "I AM" is the Son.

Read my post again.

Jury,

I'm not talking about a portion of a sentence, rather a name. If you wish to use the Holy Bible, there is only one "I AM" - ALMIGHTY GOD, also known as the "GREAT I AM". There are portions of Scripture that are rendered:

I AM THAT I AM

There is only one - ALMIGHTY GOD!

Here's another hint for you - the LORD is also ALMIGHTY GOD.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 71:5  For thou art my hope, O Lord GOD: thou art my trust from my youth.

[asaph]

Jury,
You said and I quote: "Okay. Is Jesus Christ the One who said "I AM" in Exodus 3:14? The answer is NO. it was God. When Jesus uttered "I AM" [ego eimi] in John 8:58, was He indicating His alleged divinity? Definitely not."

Yes, Jesus is the one who said "I AM" in Exodus. God in His essence is Triune. Jesus as one with the Father said that He is "I Am" Let me quote the scripture in John 8:56

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59Then took they up stones to cast at him..."

The Jews point blank asked Jesus "hast thou seen Abraham?" Jesus answered "Before Abraham was, I am." In other words "Yes, I have seen Abraham because I Am" The Jews understood exactly what Jesus said and they considered it blasphemy. That's why they took up stones. This would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to tell them He was not God. But the fact is He never denied the Truth because He is God.

Jury, take a look at this verse:

1Jo 5:20  And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.


The first part of the verse refers to God. To know him that is true is to know God. Agree? Jesus has given us this understanding to know God. Agree?

The second part of the verse says "and we are in him that is true, in his son Jesus Christ." So we know that we are in him that is true, that is, in God. Right? In the phrase "in his son" who does the personal pronoun "his" refer to? God. Right? Right! In the phrase just before that we have another pronoun "him". This also refers to God. But the verse says something that does not make sense unless God is Triune. It says that these pronouns refer to His Son! And then to cap it all off the last part of the verse says he is the true God and eternal life! You can make absolutely no other interpretation of this verse without mutilating the word structure. I have seen others do so. Do not make that same mistake. Just simply enjoy God as he is and stop trying to make him fit into your finite mind. He is too wonderful for that. As God told Paul, "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks"

asaph