Satanic Holy Days

[BigD]

theBook goes on:

7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

BigD responds:
When we study Acts 15, it must also be taken in light with Galatians 2. They are both different accounts of the same "council at Jerusalem."

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

Paul took Titus with him because of the question of Circumcision, Titus was not circumcised.

2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

It was God who revealed to Paul that he should go to Jerusalem and confer with the Disciples. The phrase "that gospel which I preached among the Gentiles" indicates it was a different gospel then the 12 had been preaching. Had it been the same gospel then there would not have been a need for the meeting.

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

This was one of the differences between "the gospel of the grace of God" which Paul was preaching and "the gospel of the kingdom" that the 12 were preaching.

4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Verse 7 does show that Paul and the 12 were preaching two different gospels. The gospel of uncircumcision is "the gospel of the grace of God" that Paul was preaching, and the gospel of the circumcision was "the gospel of the kingdom" that the 12 had been preaching. The Law was in effect during this preaching.

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

It is quite apparent that the disciples of Jesus recognized the different gospels they were preaching and recognized that the "so called" great commission could not be carried out at this time. Therefore, they agreed to stay with those Jewish believers who were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" and observed the Law.

In Acts 15:5&6 we see that there were believing Pharisees that believeda that Jesus was their Messiah but were also knowledgeable of the Law which required that believers were to be circumcised. That was the reason for "much bebate" in verse 7.

Now getting back to Acts 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

Peter is gong back to Acts 10 to the point where God had shown him that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered "unclean". (The "middle wall of partition" was not broken down, and the Jew and Gentile are without distinction, and it was NOW lawful for a Jew to go to a Gentile. [cf vs.28]).

Prior to Acts 10, for one be receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, one had to "repent and be baptized" to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). But since the vision to Peter in Acts 10, we begin go see some changes. The Gentiles in received the gifts of the Holy Ghost WITHOUT any evidence of repentance and NOT being baptized. Cornelius was a man that feared the God of Israel and sought after Him. God had never turned away anyone that sought after Him. Therefore, God sent Peter to Cornelius. Cornelius received the gift of the Holy Ghost even while Peter was talking to him. That is why Peter and those of the circumcision were so astonished (vs 45). That had never happend that way before. Their hearts were cleansed by FAITH ALONE, and not by doing the deeds/works of the Law BY FAITH.

It was the LAW that was they "yoke" that the fathers couldn't bare. Therefore, they tried to establishe their own righteousness, as Paul points out in Romans 10:3).

theBook posted:

"circumcision was the issue to be sure, but what "yolk" (or "burden" in some translations) did circumcision put on the necks of Gentile believers?  It placed them under the authorities of the Pharisee's that Jesus told the disciples they needed to submit to (though carefully since their actions didn't line up with the Torah they were teaching)."

BigD responds:
It was the Law that would place a believing Gentile under they authority of the Pharisees. They are the ones who sat in Moses seat and were the administers of the Laws of Moses.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

theBook posted:

In Acts 15:19-21, it is apparent that the Gentiles in question were already associated with the Jewish community per the last statement (in v. 21)-
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath."


This letter that the disciples wrote was the one that Paul delivered when he was traveling around.

BigD responds:
The Gentiles that Peter is speaking of in the above passage are the ones the ones that Paul had converted under the gospel of grace, not the Law. From Galatians 2 we have learned that Paul was preaching a different gospel, and James, Cephas (Peter) and John recognized that in vs 9 and "they gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship."

theBook posted:

So BigD, I know you aren't into denominations etc, and neither am I, but I think in conversation it helps to know loosely where the other person is coming from.  I was raised in an evangelical non-denom. (I think non-denominational is a denomination ;) ) which was pastored by a Baptist seminary grad with a doctorate of something (theology I think).  I aslo attended a Christian School (dutch reform) growing up till 8th grade. In high-school I got caught up into the Messianic thing and have moved around in that circle for some time (boy there are alot of whaky things in this circle).  I initially went that direction because all the answers I got for the discrepencies between the OT and NT didn't seem to jive, and all the leaders I asked seemed to have a memorized answer and could not explain it in their own words. I also wanted to study Hebrew, and messianic congregations are a good place to do that.

My position has changed over the years as I study and pray and read.  I like to talk over the scriptures because that is how I come across new information. It has been a pleasure discussing.

BigD responds:
Well I consider myself a non-denominational dispensationalist. The Chruch I attend is strictly independant of any other church and God, with His Word is the only authority over us. In fact, the church I attend doesn't even have an official membership. We are a body of like minded believers and you can consider yourself a member if you have a personal relationship with Christ and want to be a member.

I, like you, got my early education in the dutch reformed "christian school".  From my study of the Bible did not jive with what I was taught in school. I was basically taught that I had to live everthing the Bible taught. Believing that had made the Bible a contradictory book when I read it. It was only when I learned that the whole Bible was FOR ME, but not ALL TO ME. It was after I learned the difference between Israel (he subject of prophesy), and the Body of Christ (the subject of "the mystery"), that the Bible became much more understandable.

I too have enjoyed our dialogue. There is a book that I woul like to send you, at my expense, that would really give you the insight into exactly what I believe. It is titled "The MYSTERY" by pastor Joel Finck. It is a very easy read. It will give you a much clearer picture as to what I believe. When ever I study a new book or article; I normally read it twice and have a much better understanding as to what it says.

In order to send it to you, I would need to know your mailing address, which I PROMISE to keep confidential. Also, I will not send any other literature that is not requested.

I will make this offer to anyone that wishes to have a copy of this book.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Chesed]

Nana re-Quote:
I believe that the premise of "doing something" for God is the false base from which a Torah observant lifestyle is founded.

Nana –

I’m not talking about salvation here. You and I both agree that we are not saved by works. But do you concur that good works should result from a person who is saved? Doesn’t it please God when His children do His good works?

Do you think one who has professed faith in Jesus should be baptized? Do you think anyone is saved by being baptized? Would you say that being baptized is showing symbolically that you are consecrating yourself to God? Would you not say this is for sanctification?

[MalkyEL]

chesed wrote:
I’m not talking about salvation here. You and I both agree that we are not saved by works. But do you concur that good works should result from a person who is saved? Doesn’t it please God when His children do His good works?

Nana:
Yes, we agree that good works do not earn salvation.  Good works do not earn God's favor or blessing.  God's love and grace are not dependent on man's doing.  The moment you say that man "has to do something for God", you take grace and trample it underfoot as if man is more than a breath in time or more than the dust of the earth.

The works that we do have nothing to with man's perception, but of what God has planned for us to do.  The "doing" is what God has purposed for your life to bring Him honor and glory.  Obeying rules to gain His favor is not what He is about.  His law is of a different Kingdom - not made of hands, but of Spirit.

This is why "keeping the Law" whether it be all of Torah, or the Decalogue has no righteousness.  It is not this Law by which God uses us to do His will.  It is a Spiritual Law that is birthed in the Spirit, heart, soul, and mind of a person by the Holy Spirit.

The works that we do out of faith, are works of motive and intent to further the Kingdom of God here.  That is acheived by the Great Commission and the commands of Jesus - to love one another as He has loved us and to love God above all.

chesed wrote:
Do you think one who has professed faith in Jesus should be baptized? Do you think anyone is saved by being baptized? Would you say that being baptized is showing symbolically that you are consecrating yourself to God? Would you not say this is for sanctification?

Nana:
The Bible clearly states that belief in Jesus should be followed by baptism as a further statement of trust and faith in His salvation.  Baptism does not "save" a person.

Many walk in Godliness and are not baptized.  Many are ignorant of some spiritual concepts - this does not make them any less saved.

Baptism shows that we are one in Him.  It is a confession of faith in Jesus - dying to self, being raised in new life.

Baptism does not sanctify a person.  The Holy Spirit sanctifies. Baptism is a statement that we are believers in and followers of Jesus.

Jesus is the Living Water.  He is Baptism.  When you are reborn of Spirit and Water - you are baptized in Spirit and Water in other words.  You are reborn by His process within our hearts, souls, and minds.  We can do nothing to make this process happen or help it along with anything we "do".

Shalom, Nana

[BigD]

Nana posted:
"The Bible clearly states that belief in Jesus should be followed by baptism as a further statement of trust and faith in His salvation.  Baptism does not "save" a person.

Many walk in Godliness and are not baptized.  Many are ignorant of some spiritual concepts - this does not make them any less saved.

Baptism shows that we are one in Him.  It is a confession of faith in Jesus - dying to self, being raised in new life.

Baptism does not sanctify a person.  The Holy Spirit sanctifies. Baptism is a statement that we are believers in and followers of Jesus.

Jesus is the Living Water.  He is Baptism.  When you are reborn of Spirit and Water - you are baptized in Spirit and Water in other words.  You are reborn by His process within our hearts, souls, and minds.  We can do nothing to make this process happen or help it along with anything we "do"."

BigD responds:
Scriptural confirmation PLEASE.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[MalkyEL]

oneBook wrote:
Scriptural confirmation please.

Nana originally wrote:
"The Bible clearly states that belief in Jesus should be followed by baptism as a further statement of trust and faith in His salvation.  Baptism does not "save" a person."

Nana reply:
John 3
14 And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Nana original quote:
"Many walk in Godliness and are not baptized.  Many are ignorant of some spiritual concepts - this does not make them any less saved."

Nana reply:
Heb 5:13 for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for those full grown, having exercised the faculties through habit, for distinction of both good and bad.

Nana original quote:
"Baptism shows that we are one in Him.  It is a confession of faith in Jesus - dying to self, being raised in new life."

"Baptism does not sanctify a person.  The Holy Spirit sanctifies. Baptism is a statement that we are believers in and followers of Jesus."

Nana reply:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Nana original quote:
"Jesus is the Living Water.  He is Baptism.  When you are reborn of Spirit and Water - you are baptized in Spirit and Water in other words.  You are reborn by His process within our hearts, souls, and minds.  We can do nothing to make this process happen or help it along with anything we "do"."

Nana reply:
1 Peter
18 ¶ Because even Christ once suffered concerning sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God; indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
19 in which also, going in to the spirits in prison, He then proclaimed
20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark having been prepared, into which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 ¶ Which antitype [Jesus] now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who going into Heaven is at the right of God, the angels, and authorities, and powers being subjected to Him).

John 3
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.
8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.

John 4
10 Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God, and who is the One saying to you, Give Me to drink, you would have asked Him, and He would give you living water.
11 The woman said to Him, Sir, You have no vessel, and the well is deep. From where then do You have living water?
12 Are You greater than our father Jacob who gave us the well, and he and his sons and his livestock drank out of it?
13 Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again;
14 but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him will not thirst, never! But the water which I will give to him will become a fountain of water in him, springing up into everlasting life.

Shalom, Nana

[BigD]

oneBook wrote:
Scriptural confirmation please.

BigD responds:
It it I (BigD) who posted the above.
-------------------------------
Nana originally wrote:
"The Bible clearly states that belief in Jesus should be followed by baptism as a further statement of trust and faith in His salvation.  Baptism does not "save" a person."

Nana reply:
John 3
14 And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.

BigD responds:
Where is water baptism required in the above "proof text."
------------------------
Nana original quote:
"Many walk in Godliness and are not baptized.  Many are ignorant of some spiritual concepts - this does not make them any less saved."

Nana reply:
Heb 5:13 for everyone partaking of milk is without experience in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for those full grown, having exercised the faculties through habit, for distinction of both good and bad.

BigD responds:
Can't find water baptism here either.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

From  chapter 11 of the book "BASIC BIBLE DOCTRINES" by Donald Webb.

(snip)
For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Greeks [Gentiles], whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)

This verse speaks of the agency[1] of the Holy Spirit as the baptizer, baptizing or, we know this word means, thoroughly identifying us with the Body of Christ. This identification means we were actually placed into the Body of Christ. Turning Romans we learn that this means we were identified with His death:

([1]  At Pentecost, it is the Lord Jesus who did the baptizing. He was the baptizer, and He baptized them with the Holy Spirit, or with the power of the Holy Spirit. Today, the Holy Spirit is the baptizer, and He places us into Christ upon believing. Water baptism has never been a type of Spirit baptism (or a type of death), whether Israel's baptism with the spirit or our baptism by the Spirit.)

Know ye not that, as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death (Romans 6:3)?

Verse 4 continues:

Therefore, we are buried with Him by baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Romans 6:4).

Verse 5 actually gives us the Holy Spirit's confirmation of the meaning of this word baptism by using a phrase that is an exact equivalent:

For if we have been planted together [this is the phrase that means the same thing as the word baptism] in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection (Romans 6:5).

Colossians 2:12 is also an important verse on this subject. Here we learn two important aspects of this baptism:

Buried with Him in baptism, in which also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead (Colossians 2:12).

This phrase, buried with Him in baptism, means buried with Him in identification with death, literally, placed into His death and burial. This baptism is part of our threefold completeness in Christ. Verse 11 refers to our death with Christ by the word circumcised. Verse 12 refers to our burial and resurrection with Christ. also learn that this whole operation - our death, burial, and resurrection - wasoperation of God - not of any clergyman! Furthermore, this baptism must have taken place at the moment of salvation, because verse 13 declares that this when we were quickened together or made alive together with Him. This is the moment of spiritual regeneration of which Titus 3:5 speaks so clearly.

When we were planted in the likeness of His death is something that Scripture makes perfectly clear. It was at the moment of salvation - the moment we believed the gospel we were identified with Christ. This is when we were placed into Christ and sealed with the Holy Spirit - all in one glorious instant.

This is something with which most fundamental Christians, including most Baptists, will agree. Most who hold to water baptism today do not believe that it is necessary for salvation. Nonetheless, the reasons men water baptize today are unscriptural ones - which were not even correct when water baptism was a part of God's program. Water baptism has never been a type of Spirit baptism, or a type of death, or a simple public testimony!

In this dispensation we are to guard the one baptism because of the glorious calling it represents, and we are to make a clear distinction between it and water baptism which represents the kingdom calling. There is only one baptism in this dispensation of grace and to add water would make two baptisms, which would be unscriptural. This would only confuse the truth for this present dispensation.
(snip)

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[BigD]

Nana original quote:
"Jesus is the Living Water.  He is Baptism.  When you are reborn of Spirit and Water - you are baptized in Spirit and Water in other words.  You are reborn by His process within our hearts, souls, and minds.  We can do nothing to make this process happen or help it along with anything we "do"."

Nana reply:
1 Peter
18 ¶ Because even Christ once suffered concerning sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God; indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
19 in which also, going in to the spirits in prison, He then proclaimed
20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, an ark having been prepared, into which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 ¶ Which antitype [Jesus] now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who going into Heaven is at the right of God, the angels, and authorities, and powers being subjected to Him).

BigD responds:

First of all, my Bible (KJV) renders vs 20 "...saved BY water."

Peter here in this letter is writing to Jewish believers who were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" when water baptism was a requirement for salvation. Peter here IS NOT writing to members of the Body of Christ where the rite of water baptism is a requirement. These are the same ones that James, Cephas (Peter) and John agreed, with Paul in Gal. 2:9, that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews) while Paul and Banabas when to the heathen (Gentiles.)

Nana continues:
John 3
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, If one is not generated out of water and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That having been generated out of the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated out of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not wonder because I said to you, You must be generated from above.
8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice; but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone having been generated from the Spirit.

BigD resonds:
Water baptism is not the subject in the above passages. My KJV of the Bible renders the verse "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The word "BORN" in the original Greek is "gennao" and according to Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament (1080) the meaning is: "from a var. of 1085; to procreate (prop. of father, but by extens. of the mother); fig. to regenerate;-bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring."

So, in the above passages we are not talking about water baptism, but natural birth through the birth cannal. A believer does have two births, the natural birth and spiritual birth.

Nana continues:
John 4
10 Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God, and who is the One saying to you, Give Me to drink, you would have asked Him, and He would give you living water.
11 The woman said to Him, Sir, You have no vessel, and the well is deep. From where then do You have living water?
12 Are You greater than our father Jacob who gave us the well, and he and his sons and his livestock drank out of it?
13 Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again;
14 but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him will not thirst, never! But the water which I will give to him will become a fountain of water in him, springing up into everlasting life.

BigD asks:
Where is water baptism in the above passages?

The use of the word "water" in the Bible doesn't ALWAYS refer to water baptism.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[oneBook]

Hey BigD, I got the book a few nights ago, and I am on chapter 3.  I just wanted to let you know.

I'll wait till I'm done and start a new thread on this subject.

Thanks for the book.

-oneBook

[BigD]

Hey BigD, I got the book a few nights ago, and I am on chapter 3.  I just wanted to let you know.

I'll wait till I'm done and start a new thread on this subject.

Thanks for the book.
-oneBook

BigD responds:
Really GLAD to hear that you got the book and are reading it.

Am looking forward to any comments you may have concerning it contents. Even if you don't agree with what is presented, I would enjoy discussing any portion of it.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!