The Holy Father

[ollie]

Not a precedent for "Holy Father", but father period.
The Holy is an infered given.
Why does Rome title their priests, the pope, etc. "father" when God's word says no?

What do you call your dad?

I take it you don't call anyone a teacher either?

To take those verses literally is absurd, if not impossible.

"To take those verses literally is absurd, if not impossible."

Why is it absurd and impossible.  It is the word of God given through His Holy Spirt. SIGH!

Christians do it 365/24/7

I believe the scripture is in reference to spiritual heavenly father, not physical. Calling priests and pope father seems to be in the spiritual mode.

So you're not taking it completely literally - your assuming it refers to spiritual fathers and not physical ones, something the text doesn't say.

No assuming.
All things of God are spiritual not natural and no it does not refer to spiritual fathers, but God the Father. God is Spirit.

"your assuming it refers to spiritual fathers and not physical ones, something the text doesn't say."

Are you suggesting it refers to our Father in Heaven as being physical or natural?
 Since God is spirit and all things of him are spiritual what else could the text be saying?

[Heidi]

When we are reborn of the spirit, our ONLY Father is God. "Flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit."

[Tibby]

But Heidi, what about honoring your father and mother?

[Heidi]

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit." I honor only one Father. I give my earthly parents respect for being more experienced than me and for sacrificing their lives for me when I was a child. But I could not give them the respect they deserve without the love from God in me. It is from God that real love for others comes. That is why Jesus says we have to leave our earthly parents, sisters, sons, daughters, etc. for Him. Therefore honoring our real Father has to be first. He is not in the same category as my earthly father.

[ebia]

Are you suggesting it refers to our Father in Heaven as being physical or natural?
 Since God is spirit and all things of him are spiritual what else could the text be saying?

The text says "call no-one father".  If you call your earthly father "father" then you are either:
a.  making an assumption about what the text means
b.  not taking it literally
or
c.  disobaying.

Which is it to be?

[Tibby]

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit." I honor only one Father. I give my earthly parents respect for being more experienced than me and for sacrificing their lives for me when I was a child. But I could not give them the respect they deserve without the love from God in me.

So, you saying Saved Christians are the only ones who love? The only one who Respect? You are saying Christians are the only ones to obey there parents?

I don't think Jesus is as shallow as to hold it against me if I call Tibby Senior "Dad."

[Heidi]

First of all, the only kind of Christian, according to Christ, is one who is born again. We cannot enter heaven unless we are "born of water and the spirit".

When addressed by the rich man as "Good sir", Jesus repled, "No one is good but God alone." Jesus did not even include Himself. He claims all through the gospel of John that the only way we can be good is to have the spirit of God in us who gives us that power. Without God's love in us, we only live to glorify ourselves. Real love is not proud and does not boast. The ones who claim to love without God's love in them see that love as coming from themselves. They therefore love to gain honor for themselves. That is not real love because it is self-serving. Human love is conditional and depends on if people please us enough to love them. The minute people don't do what we want, we're gone, and that includes love for our parents. People then feel guilty and try to "muster up" love for their parents because they think they "should". But genuine love comes from God because since we have been forgiven, we can then forgive anyone no matter what they do. So no, we cannot have genuine love in us without being saved.

[Tibby]

First of all, the only kind of Christian, according to Christ, is one who is born again. We cannot enter heaven unless we are "born of water and the spirit".

Ya think? Thank you, I’m glad to see all that bible reading has paid off.

When addressed by the rich man as "Good sir", Jesus repled, "No one is good but God alone." Jesus did not even include Himself. He claims all through the gospel of John that the only way we can be good is to have the spirit of God in us who gives us that power. Without God's love in us, we only live to glorify ourselves. Real love is not proud and does not boast. The ones who claim to love without God's love in them see that love as coming from themselves. They therefore love to gain honor for themselves. That is not real love because it is self-serving. Human love is conditional and depends on if people please us enough to love them. The minute people don't do what we want, we're gone, and that includes love for our parents. People then feel guilty and try to "muster up" love for their parents because they think they "should". But genuine love comes from God because since we have been forgiven, we can then forgive anyone no matter what they do. So no, we cannot have genuine love in us without being saved.

You actually think non-Christians don't love? Even the little kids? Most childern raised in Christian homes claim to be saved when they are teenagers. Are you saying they didn't like anyone before then? I know many kids who have been saved later in their teen years, and loved their folks just as much before as they do after.

[Heidi]

As I said before, human love is conditional. It is dependant on people doing what we want them to do. Love quickly turns to hate when people offend us, Tibby. Genuine love never goes away. It isn't up and down like human love. It is easy to love people when they please us. It is more difficult to love others who hate us. It is easy to love our parents because they have first loved us. It is harder to love them if they have abused us. God's love makes it possible to love others who hate us despite how they treat us. When children love their parents, most of it comes from dependancy. Children don't think they can survive without their parents so they are desperate to love their parents, hoping their parents will love them back. This is why we all grow up trying to please our parents. It is a dependant love, and understandable so, but it is not genuine love. Human love is given to get back which is why people do not love their enemies. Only God's love in us gives us the power to do so.

[Tibby]

So Non-Christians can love then. And when Christians are saved, we have the love of God. And this love of God allows us to properly love our Earthly Father. So what you are saying is that as Christians, we lvoe our earthly parents more then non-christians?

[Heidi]

I'm saying, Tibby, that genuine love comes from God, not man. Again, human love is condtional. I believe i have already explained why.

[ollie]

Are you suggesting it refers to our Father in Heaven as being physical or natural?
 Since God is spirit and all things of him are spiritual what else could the text be saying?

The text says "call no-one father".  If you call your earthly father "father" then you are either:
a.  making an assumption about what the text means
b.  not taking it literally
or
c.  disobaying.

Which is it to be?

Matthew 23:8.  But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
 9.  And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

You are right,  Call no one father upon the earth for one is our father in Heaven, Jesus Christ makes it very clear.

So why is the word of Jesus Christ violated by the church headquartered in Rome?

[Tibby]

The word of Jesus Christ isn't violated by the church. We have already explained this more then once. If you don’t accept the answers we give, fine, but don’t keep bringing it up. It only mongers up trouble that the board doesn’t need.

[Heidi]

I disagree with that and so do many others. But I will not debate it.

[sincereheart]

Ssshhh.... Don't tell Dyskolos, but I still have a question-

Still with my 'universal' ignorance....
Matthew 23 is talking about calling a religious leader "father", isn't it? As opposed to the "honoring your father and mother" kind of father...
So wouldn't that negate the comparison of the 'dad', 'pa', 'daddy', etc. kind that we use for our male parent?

And then wouldn't it be more offensive to add 'Holy' in front of it when referring to someone other than our earthly father?