Rapture

[nChrist]

Rich Said:

If the dead in Christ arise first and join the rest of the believers in the air and go up to Heaven with Jesus - where were the dead in Christ before the rapture?

Brother Rich,

I've been to your web site, and I now believe that you are a brother in Christ. I don't quite understand why you started here by calling other brothers and sisters in Christ names. Maybe you didn't intend it in that way. I especially noticed a large notice on your web site "There is no judgment here."

Brother, we don't have any problem in discussing differences, but we do avoid and stop name calling here. I'm hoping that we can have Christian fellowship here with you. The Christians here discuss differences all of the time, but all of us love JESUS as LORD over our lives. Differing opinions about novels or difficult portions of the Holy Bible are no reason for name calling or condemnation. In short, I hope that you join us in Christian fellowship.

Rich, it's really not a matter of "IF", as the Bible clearly states this precisely.

In answer to your question, only the bodies of the dead in Christ are in the graves.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If I die before JESUS comes to Rapture the Church Which is the Body of Christ, I will be absent from my body and present with the Lord.

Rich, the below beautiful portions of Scripture should answer your other questions.

Genesis 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Our vile bodies of flesh are simply houses that we use during this short life.  Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Our vile bodies will be changed into a glorified body at God's appointed time.

Philippians 3:20-21 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 15:42-52  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:    It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Love In Christ
Tom

Romans 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

Romans 5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Ephesians 1:12-14  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

[nChrist]

Even though I grew up Southern Baptist and my point of view has been skewed by 50 years of "SBC indoctrination" I still try keep an open mind about "non-salvation" issues.  Although I consider myself a "pre-trib rapturist" I enjoy other points of view.

God Bless!
JudgeNot

JudgeNot,

Brother, you and I are in the same boat. I also study and enjoy other points of view, and I feel no condemnation at all for brothers and sisters in Christ who have various views about the Rapture and the Tribulation Period.

The strongest reason for my belief regards the sealing WITH the Holy Spirit of those who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour in this age of Grace. I am of the firm belief that no power in the universe can break the seal of the Holy Spirit or drive the Holy Spirit out of my heart. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Bible Prophecy clearly states that those who take the mark of the beast during the Tribulation Period will be damned for eternity. There is also a loosing of the devil and a removal of the Great Restrainer for the devil to do his work during the Tribulation Period. My conclusion - The Great Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is already in my heart, and the devil can't drive HIM out nor break HIS SEAL. Finally, Daniel's 70th week is determined against Israel, not the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. So, I conclude that the BODY OF CHRIST isn't here for the Tribulation period, rather the BODY is home with JESUS. This is obviously just my opinion, and I do study other points of view, most specifically other points of view that are presented with Scriptures from the Holy Bible.

Regardless, I would still repeat again that I feel no animosity at all for those with different views. There are some true Christians who don't believe in a Rapture of any kind, and my feelings would be the same toward them. If they have JESUS as LORD over their life, we will spend eternity together with JESUS in Heaven regardless of our different opinions now in this short life.

Love In Christ,
Tom

1 Corinthians 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

[JudgeNot]

 Brother BEP said:

I am of the firm belief that no power in the universe can break the seal of the Holy Spirit or drive the Holy Spirit out of my heart.

Tom -
Romans 8:38-39.
 

[Reba]

Hi,

 In your understanding of scripture do the terms  ' last day'  and  'last days'  have a different meaning.

[nChrist]

Amen Judgenot,

I love that beautiful portion of Scripture. It is one of many precious portions of Scripture that can and should give a Christian 100% assurance of Salvation. I know that the devil wants us to doubt, mainly because that doubt makes us weaker witnesses for Christ. Doubt also makes us weaker in our daily walk in the SPIRIT.

Sister Reba,

The terms of "last days" or "last day" causes a lot of confusion for many people. First, I would want to say that there is no last day, rather eternity. These terms are used to describe the end of the dispensation or age of Grace. This last sentence also causes a lot of confusion for many people. In fact, many people have negative thoughts when they hear the term "dispensation". However, the Apostle Paul clearly labels the age in which we currently live as the Dispensation of Grace.

Very generally, let me give you a brief explanation. In this current dispensation of Grace, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, not works or deeds. This age will end, and there will be huge differences. More than faith in Jesus Christ will be required for those who are saved during the Tribulation Period. The saved during the Tribulation Period will have to endure to the end, refuse the mark of the beast, and possibly be beheaded for Salvation. Hosts of people who are saved during the Tribulation Period will be hunted and face death. If they do anything other than endure to the end and/or die, they are damned for eternity and lost. So, mighty works and endurance will be required for Salvation during the Tribulation Period, not just a Gift from God, Grace, and faith in Jesus Christ that is Salvation in this current age. Bible Prophecy makes it clear that hosts will die for their Salvation during the Tribulation Period.

Sister, the biggest and most beautiful truth about this current age is the Gospel of the Grace of God, Jesus, the Cross, God's Gift, and Jesus dying for us in our place. We are not required to die for our Salvation during this current age. So, the contrast between the Age of Grace and the Tribulation Period is huge when the topic is Salvation. Courage and endurance is added to the requirements for Salvation during the Tribulation Period. The courage, endurance, and suffering of JESUS on the Cross is the payment for Salvation during this age of Grace.

The "last day" of the Tribulation Period will mark the beginning of the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. The "last day" of the Millennial Kingdom" will simply mark the beginning of another age, and time will be without end.

Sister, I hope that I answered your question.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 25:4  Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.

[Reba]

Jesus used the term ' last day' 5 times. Trusting His word there will be a last day. Agreeing with you ( i think) that eternity is after the 'last day'
Jesus saw fit to teach about 'last day' and i dont find His words confusing.

John 6:54

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:39

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
KJV


John 6:40

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:54

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day
KJV

John 12:48

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
KJV

Jesus is very direct.

I understand last days to be a period of time, as you say  an age etc.

Some of the  reasons i do not hold to the teaching of my early years (which is what you have posted). Is salvation via works. The suggestion that man can have his blood shed for his own salvation, i do not find scriptural. Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. He is salvation.

Mr. Bepster,
 I thank you for replying. Asking another question... How does the theology you posted fit into the words of our Lord, in the verses above.

[nChrist]

Sister Reba,

The confusion comes to play when people start talking about which last day or days (i.e. the age of Grace, the Tribulation Period, the thousand year reign of Christ, etc.). You will also see references to the last day or days in the Old Testament, most specifically Bible Prophecy, and none of the references in the Bible pertain to an end of time - just an end of an age.

There are obviously several different views of time lines and sequence of events, and there is even disagreement about whether certain events were used for illustration or if they actually represented future reality. I believe they applied to future reality.

So, please let me try to answer your question in general terms using my opinion.

The last day of the age of Grace will usher in the 7 Year Tribulation Period.

The last day of the Tribulation Period will usher in the Millennial Kingdom - the 1,000 year rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Please note that some people don't believe this to be a physical reign of Christ from a physical throne on earth. I believe this to be a literal reality. Something to consider here is the Heavenly Reign which is much longer than 1,000 years. AND, the Heavenly Kingdom is already present, not only in Heaven, but in our hearts.

Bible Prophecy clearly states that the devil will be imprisoned for 1,000 years at the end of the Tribulation Period. This coincides with the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ. Notice the description of imprisonment of the devil, as the devil is NOT cast into the lake of fire for eternity yet. However, the devil will have no power or influence of any type over the earth for that 1,000 years. Again, some people don't believe this description of Bible Prophecy to be literal, but I do. Many people who study Bible Prophecy call the 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ the Kingdom Age, primarily because HE will rule over an earthly Kingdom. You and I already know about the Heavenly Kingdom and probably have no differences at all about that. God has always been the unquestioned King of Kings in the Heavenly Kingdom, but we both know there are hosts of people on earth who have rejected God as King. Every knee will finally bow.

Sister, the verses you quoted deal with the first resurrection. Yes, there is a second resurrection, and this is a matter for additional confusion for many trying to study the deeper things of God's word.

============See Page 2

[nChrist]

Sister Reba,

Page 2

The first resurrection also involves the Rapture of the Church, and I already know that some true Christians don't believe in the Rapture of the Church. I do. The dead in Christ will rise first, and this refers to their bodies from the grave, as they are absent from the body and present with the Lord. Those who are still alive in Christ will be caught up after the dead to meet the Lord in the air. Our bodies will be changed into glorified bodies. So, the first resurrection does not include the lost.

The following portion of Scripture should answer many questions, but a detailed study would involved a host of Scriptures from the Old and New Testament.

Revelation 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Revelation 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Revelation 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever
Revelation 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sister Reba, you will see a reference in the above portion of Scripture (verse 4) about the people who were saved during the Tribulation Period. This portion of Scripture compliments many others. This is just one of the reasons why I believe Bible Prophecy to be literal events, not just illustrations. Verse 6 applies to the first resurrection and those raised as being blessed. The second resurrection happens after the Kingdom age, and it will be for final judgment at the Great White Throne for eternal punishment and casting into the lake of fire with the devil. Yes, there are two judgments, and this also causes a lot of confusion. The one for the lost is for eternal punishment, and the one for the saved is for rewards for good works.

Sister Reba, I probably shouldn't have tried to cram so much information into two little posts. I hope that my attempt to condense so much doesn't cause confusion. A detailed study of this topic would involve a fairly large portion of the Bible and take years. The references that take you all over the Holy Bible are fascinating, and they represent evidence that the Holy Bible had to be inspired by God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 14:16-18  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

[Reba]

In reading your post i am understanding you believe last day and last days to have the same meaning is this correct?

[Reba]

Mr Bepster,

Your posts are not confusing, I grew up on the theology you post. It was part of my everyday life.  One of my most valued treasures is an old warnout scofield bible.

[Reba]

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


 Seems to me the words of Christ say the resurection of the 'good' and 'evil' are within the hour.

[nChrist]

In reading your post i am understanding you believe last day and last days to have the same meaning is this correct?

Sister Reba,

No, I think there are different. I think of the "last day" as being the literal last day of an age and "last days" as being a series of events that may signal the approaching last day of an age. As an example, there is much written in the Holy Bible about the last days of the age of Grace. "Last days" could actually mean many years, and I know that it does in referring to the age of Grace. There is little or no doubt in my mind that the last days of the age of Grace began before 1948, but I could easily be wrong. A series of events were foretold in Bible Prophecy, and I should quickly note there is much disagreement about that series of events. Actually, the best that men can do in many cases is guess and say that a particular event could have been the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy. However, there are quite a few Old Testament Prophecies that have already been fulfilled with such accuracy and detail that there is no doubt at all. An example of this would be the birth, ministry, and crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Again, this was evidence that the Holy Bible had to be inspired by God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

[nChrist]

John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


 Seems to me the words of Christ say the resurection of the 'good' and 'evil' are within the hour.

Sister Reba,

You ask good and hard questions.

John 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The hour for resurrection of the just and the unjust will most definitely come, but it won't be the same hour. There are two resurrections spoken of above. Please see the following Scriptures that are additional references for John 5:28 and 29. There are many others, but I'm too tired to keep studying tonight.

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:23  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1 Thessalonians 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God deals with believers and unbelievers separately.  Please notice that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 above is the first resurrection, and it only includes the dead in Christ. This also corresponds with many other portions of Scripture, to include Revelations 20. The first resurrection is also the Rapture of the Church which is the BODY OF CHRIST.

1 Corinthians 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Verse 23 above deals with the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, they that are Christ's. Verse 24 speaks "cometh the end", and that refers to the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ. One of the purposes of the Millennial Kingdom is to bring all under subjection to Him, and Jesus Christ does just that. Every knee will bow. It is now time for the 2nd resurrection, the resurrection of the lost for final judgment and condemnation to the lake of fire.

Sister, please feel free to ask all the questions you wish, and I'll do the best I can to answer them. I will probably take more time with the next questions. My health is such that I get pretty tired fairly quickly, and I'm afraid that I'll make too many mistakes if I get in a hurry. I'm really hoping that others will also join in here.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 21:13  Be thou exalted, LORD, in thine own strength: so will we sing and praise thy power.

[nChrist]

Mr Bepster,

Your posts are not confusing, I grew up on the theology you post. It was part of my everyday life.  One of my most valued treasures is an old warnout scofield bible.

Sister Reba,

I still have my old and worn Scoffield Bible also. I think that my dad gave it to me 45 years ago. It's still in fairly good shape, but the print is small and I have difficulty reading it. Maybe that means it's time for stronger glasses again. My dad passed away in 1998, so the old Bible also has some strong sentimental value.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Reba]

Mr Bepster,

Your posts are not confusing, I grew up on the theology you post. It was part of my everyday life.  One of my most valued treasures is an old warnout scofield bible.

Sister Reba,

I still have my old and worn Scoffield Bible also. I think that my dad gave it to me 45 years ago. It's still in fairly good shape, but the print is small and I have difficulty reading it. Maybe that means it's time for stronger glasses again. My dad passed away in 1998, so the old Bible also has some strong sentimental value.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Mine is from my Daddy also.........

I must get off to open the store. I will get back to the scripture when i have more time.... as you are thinking....



John 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV


If i said to you...."for the hour is coming, in the which Judgenot  and  Ollie will arrive."  What would the time frame be?