Isa 17 study [ yes i'm back ]

[BigD]

PART 3
Paul2 goes on:
   

There is one more thing you must consider: Daniel's 70 week begins with a covenant made by Antichrist between Israel and many nations. There is also another event that will occur on the day the 70th week begins. The two witnesses of Revelation 11 will start their 1260 day ministry on the day the 70th week begins and will be killed on the day of the mid week. Daniel''s 70th week can not have begun if the two witnesses have not started their 1260 days of prophecizing.

     I have just finished a study of the two witnesses of Revelation 11 on my "Understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and have explained the details of this. If you truely seek to understand then read my study on Revelation 11.

BigD responds:

Where (chapter and verse) does it say that the 70th week cannot start prior to a covenant being signed with the ani-Christ? Yes, one will be signed. There wasn't one signed when the Tribulation started in Acts 2.

Paul2 replied:

Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

      There wasn't a covenant in Acts 2 because the tribulation did not start in Acts 2. I think your catching on to this after all. You seem to be understanding, just not accepting. The two witnesses did not begin their 1260 day ministry in Acts 2 and they weren't killed by the Antichrist 1260 days later in Acts 2 either. Theres your proof. The tribulation did not start in Acts 2 because the events of Daniel's 70th week did not start in Acts 2. Daniel's 70th week is still in the future

BigD replies
I don't see where is says in Daniel 9:27 that a covenant must be signed prior to the START of the Tribulation. I think that you are reading that into it.

You are right. There wasn't one signed in Acts 2 either; when the Tribulation started.

BigD posted:

I have read a portion of you study on the book of the Revelation and have rejected some of what you have written. I feel that I have better studies to read about the Tribulation then what I have seen of your writing. I do admire you efforts though.

Paul2 responds:
   

How about you have rejected ALL that I have written. Maybe your reading "better" studies by more "educated" people but I teach the interpretation that the WHOLE BIBLE supports. If you can not fit all of prophecy together without contradicting your own interpretation, your interpretation is wrong.

    Your mind is made up. I knew this when I started. I just wanted to provide you with the answers to your questions. I have answered you. There are prophecies you haven't considered that prove you are wrong.

    Revelation 11 shoots down your theory, Daniel 9:27 shoots down your theory.

BigD replies:
What you say above is highly quesitonable and debatable. To this point you have shown me anything that should change what I believe.

BigD posted

Personally I don't study the book of the Revelation a great deal because I know that I will not be going through it, but I'll be raptured prior to its resumption.

Paul2 responds
     

Ding, Ding, Ding!!!! Tell him what he's won Bob!!!

Theres the major problem!!!!!!!!! You ignore the study of all of the Scriptures. How can you expect to understand what you don't bother studing. The book of Revelation sequences the Old Testament prophecies!!!

BigD replies:
I have never said or implied that I ignore all the Scriptures. I have gone throuht indepth studies of the book of the Revelations, and have studied the OT books. The instructions in righteous, and what our Christian walk should be, are contained in Paul's writings. Therefore, I study those Scriptures more then the others. I do study the entire Bible in order to better understand God Plan for the Ages. Also, I can see ALL the attributes of God by studying the entire Bible.

BigD posted:

Being I believe that the instructions in righteousness for members of the Body of Christ can be found only in Paul's Epistles, I study them a great deal. Yes, I study the OT Scriptures also. They too are for my learning.

Paul2 responded:
   

Better learn the WHOLE BIBLE, stop dismissing John. You don't study the things that prove you wrong which is unwise.

BigD replies:
Please read my above two statements, and commit them to memory.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Much and Love The Lord!

[Paul2]

      BigD,

    My last post was hard enough to format, now there are quotes answering quotes and questions on the quotes answering quotes with new questions...LOL!!!

    One step at a time. First let me deal with Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel 9:27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

     The part of the verse above in red IS the 70th week of Daniel. The week of the covenant with many IS Daniel's 70th week. The 7 year Great Tribulation Period takes place during Daniel's 70th week.

     The covenant is made for one week. The One week is Daniel's 70th week.
(one week =7 years= 2520 days=84 months)

    The making of the covenant begins the 70th week. In blue above we learn that"and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease"

     The covenant maker (Antichrist) will make a covenant with Israel that WILL begin the 70th week. We are told that in the middle of the week the Antichrist would stop the daily sacrifice. This will occur at the middle of the 7 year "week".

     Antichrist makes the covenant between Israel and many nations. The day this 7 year covenant is made, the 70th week of Daniel begins. The Great Tribulation Period takes place during the 70th week of Daniel.

     Antichrist will stop the daily sacrifice at the middle of Daniel's 70th week, exactly 1260 days after he (Antichrist) made the covenant for "one week", which is the 70th week of Daniel which the covenant started.

     Antichrist will go to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and stop the reinstated daily sacrifice exactly 1260 days after he made the covenant which began the 70th week. There is no starting and stopping of Daniel's 70th week. Once it begins there are 2520 days until the Second Coming of Christ to establish His Kingdom and end the 42 month (final 42 months =3 1/2 years of the 70th week) reign of the Antichrist.

     From the making of the covenant which begins the 70th week, to the Antichrist stopping the daily sacrifice at the "Midweek" there are exactly 1260 days.

    From the Midweek when the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice and receives 42 months of authority to the Second Coming of Christ and the end of the 70th week of Daniel there are exactly 1260 days.

One Week
Covenant- Begins 70th week-Antichrist begins the 70th
                   week of Daniel by making a covenant between
                   Israel and many nations. The 70th week is the
                   covenant week=2520 days=84 months=7 years

1260 days later...

Midweek- Antichrist stops sacrifice and receives power
              for 42 months.

1260 days later...

End of 70th Week- Second Coming of Christ, Antichrist
                          thrown into the Lake of Fire,
                          resurrection of the Old Testament and
                          Tribulation Saints.

       Above is an outline of a few events that will take place during the 70th week of Daniel. There is no time gap in the 70th week of Daniel. The 70th week is exactly 2520 consecutive days long. There are 1260 days from the beginning of the 70th week to the midweek and there are exactly 1260 days from the midweek to the end of the 70th week. The Great Tribulation Period will begin during the 70th week of Daniel.

      There are a few events we missed on my above outline and I'll add them now...
One Week
Covenant- Begins 70th week-Antichrist begins the 70th
                   week of Daniel by making a covenant between
                   Israel and many nations. The 70th week is the
                   covenant week=2520 days=84 months=7 years
                  The two witnesses of Revaltion 11 begin their
                   1260 days of prophecizing, the whole world
                   watches these two prophets bring plaques to
                   the earth and stop the rain during their 1260
                   days of witnessing.

1260 days later...

Midweek- Antichrist stops sacrifice and receives power
              for 42 months. Antichrist kills the two witnesses of
              Revelation 11, ending their 1260 days of prophecy
              which began when the covenant starting the 70th
              week of Daniel was made.

1260 days later...

End of 70th Week- Second Coming of Christ, Antichrist
                          thrown into the Lake of Fire,
                          resurrection of the Old Testament and
                          Tribulation Saints.

     Daniels 70th week can not start and stop, it must be contiunuous. If the two witnesses are not in Jerusalem prophecizing then the 70th week of Daniel has not begun.

    The Two witnesses of Revelation 11 make it impossible for the 70th week to have been started and then paused. They arrive the very day the covenant is made which is the beginning of their 1260 days for prophecizing, the first half of Daniel's 70th week. They are killed at the midweek exactly 1260 days later. These events have never happened because Daniel's 70th week has not yet begun. It did not start and then stop. The whole world will SEE with their own eyes the two witnesses refused burial and See their dead bodies lie in the street of Jerusalem just like how the world is watching the Popes body lying in state on television.

                                                       Paul2

[BigD]

OK you told me again what you believe about the 70th week of Daniel, so lets get on with the rest.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Paul2]

OK you told me again what you believe about the 70th week of Daniel, so lets get on with the rest.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

     BigD,

    "So lets get on with the rest" Are you kidding me???

      Get on with the rest of what??? I just showed you that Daniel's 70th week can not have started yet. You just ignored everything I wrote again.

      How can I continue when you won't acknowledge what I just showed you? I "rest" my case because I have proven you wrong with Scripture.

     Revelation 11:1-13 proves you wrong about Daniel's 70th week. You totally ignored my whole post. You gave me a sort of "ya, ya ,ya, I know what you said but I'll just ignore it..."

    You can't just ignore it. It won't go away. I just proved you wrong. Daniel's 70th week can not be started and stopped and then restarted. You are Wrong. Daniels 70th week goes for exactly 2520 literal un-interrupted days, from the start of the ONE WEEK COVENANT to the end of the One week will be 2520 days. The Two witnesses make it impossible for there to be a pause once the 70th week has started. Their ministry starts at the beginning of the week and lasts a literal 1260 days until they are killed by the Antichrist at the Midweek. No place for any time gap in their ministry at all.

     Your theory just clearly contradicted Scripture, Scripture clearly proves that there is no time gap or pause once the 70th "WEEK" of Daniel begins with the "covenant made with many for one week". The Two witnesses begin their ministry at the beggining of the 70th week and history does not record them because the 70th week, the whole 70th week is yet in the future and has not yet started.

     Until you address the fact that the two witnesses make your interpretation impossible, theres nothing more for me to say, I've proven my point and proven Scripture does not support your interpretation.

     I've seen you do the same thing with many people. You say "show me" and then just ignore what your shown. I have better things to do with my time than to beat a "Dead Horse" interpretation. Thats what I call interpretations that I have proven wrong over and over. Its like beating a dead horse, theres no sense in continuing, when its dead its dead.

    Thats what your interpretation is: Its a "dead horse" interpretation that was "just beaten" and is a dead end interpretation. Your own interpretation just contradicted itself. Scripture makes your interpretation impossible.

    I've made my point and everybody can see it. Anybody that reads my study on Revelation 11:1-13 found on my
"understanding the Book of Revelation" thread and reads these debates knows I have proven your interpretation wrong.

   Your interpretation conflicts with itself and with Scripture.

    No need for me to continue any further, Scripture itself proves you wrong. The only choice now is to accept that your wrong, which I would suggest, or to radically alter the true interpretation of all Scriptures which prove your interpretation wrong, which I would advise against.

     Whats your next move? Are you going to come up with an incorrect interpretation of Revelation 11:1-13 to explain your incorrect understanding of Daniel's 70th week?

      I can give you several incorrect interpretations of Revelation 11:1-13 by several so called "smart great teachers". This is the road that incorrect interpretations take you down. You find yourself having to ignore more and more verses of Scripture, and radically change the literal interpretation for allegorical interpretations, to make them fit the incorrect interpretation you are holding on to.

    Matthew Henry's Commentary is totally wrong, you might want to try that one to fit your incorrect interpretation. I'm joking of course. I would never really send someone to read something I know to be false. Just making a point.

     You said you liked "better" studies than mine. You seem to prefer studies that are false and incorrect. I know that I'm not the best teacher but I'm not trying to be the best teacher. I'm trying to do a study that people can follow and understand without boring them to tears. The study I'm doing is long enough without getting into every single minor detail that would take 1000 pages to present and to read.

     I'm trying to present the Book of Revelation in an understandable way, not in a technical way. What good does an ultra complex commentary do, if nobody can understand it or if its so boring nobody will bother reading it?

    I'll work on my study of the Book of Revelation while you try to figure out how Daniel's 70th week, and the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11, just destroyed your "Dead Horse" Interpretation. Hope you "see" and "accept" the truth one of these days.

                                                               Paul2
       

[BigD]

Paul2:
Sometime ago I expressed my views on Acts 2:15-20 concering the the Tribulation starting at Pentecost.

Bronzesnake wanted to discuss 70th week Daniel and the book of the Revelation. Being it has been a couple of years since we went through the entire book of the Revelation verse by verse, everything studied is no longer fresh in my mind. (It took us about to years in the study.) Therefore, before I would discuss the book, I would again have to go back and do an indepth study. I was not prepared to do it then, and I am not prepared to do it now.

From what I have read of you writings on the book of the Revelation, I do know that there will be several things that we will disagree on.

You in no way have proven me wrong as to my beliefs concerning Acts 2:15-20. I do not have to understand the book of the Revelation to understand the book of Acts.

IMHO where you and I differ in understanding the Bible is that I see that this dispensation of Grace as a ("parenthetical") period within the dispensation of the Law, and the Chruch, the Body of Christ, not included in the writings of the book of the Revelation, and you still want to place the Chruch, the Body of Christ in the book of the Revelation.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that you probably believe that the Chruch, the Body of Christ, is the "Bride of Christ," whereas I don't.

Peter, James and John were disciples of Jesus and preached, as commanded by Jesus, "the gospel of the kingdom." Those that were saved under their ministry will go into the earthly kingdom. At the time they preached it the LAW was in effect.

Paul preached "the gospel of the grace of God." Those saved under his preaching will enter a heavenly kingdom, not and earthly one. The Law was not in effect during his preaching. Believer that were/are saved under the preaching of the gospel of the grace of God will be raptured to heaven, "to ever be with the Lord," prior to the resumption of the Tribulation. Therefore there is no need for John to write to them concerning the Tribulation.  Even Paul, in 1Thess.5:1 says to those believers (members of the Body of Christ): "But of the times and the seasons (of the Tribulation) ye have no need that I write unto you." So, If Paul doesn't think it necessary to write the members of the Body of Christ about the Tribulation, Why would John need to write to them?

James, Cephas (Peter), and John agree with Paul, in Galations 2:9 that they would stay with the circumcision (Jews saved during the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom). All the letters that they wrote, shown in the Bible after the book of Hebrews, were written to those Jews that they agreed with Paul to stay with. They are not written to members of the Body of Christ.

Does that mean that we are to forget those book and not study them? NO, NO, NO!!! ALL Scripture is for our learning. By studying ALL Scripture we learn God's Plan for the Ages, and His will in our lives.

As a dispensationalist I study the Laws of Moses, but I don't offer animal sacrifices to cover/atone for my sins. Do I have to know all the details of those laws in order to prefect my Christian walk? NO! But by studying them I can see the attributes of God and the demonstration of His grace.

Do I have to understand every detail of the 70th week of Daniel to have a proper Christian walk. I don't think so. However, I do have a good understanding of the Book of the Revelation, and a pretty good knowledge of what will happen then. However, I don't have every detail "at my finger tips."

I commend you for your continual study of the book of the Revelation. My "thrist" is for knowledge for my Christian walk today, whereas yours appears to be in the Tribulation period. I am not saying that is wrong. You apparently have the time to do it. I don't.

I will leave it up to you if you still want to have further dialogue with me. Just don't expect a detailed discussion about the 70th week of Daniel.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

[Paul2]

      BigD,

    I don't have time for a long post so I'll just say this.

    My primary goal is for people to believe in Christ and be Raptured before the Great Tribulation begins. It was the study of prophecy that totally convinced me that the Bible is the truth.

    The book of Revelation is one of the least studied book of the Bible. Perhaps if people know what is coming, they will be more inclined to seek the relationship with Christ as Lord and Savior. Prpohecy had that effect on me years ago. I have seen it have that effect on my friends who took the time to study prophecy with me. I've seen atheists change their minds, because the evidence in prophecy made them realize that there must be a God.

   If by teaching the book of Revelation I can motivate one person to find Salvation then it was worth the time. Perhaps it will motivate some to take the time and reach out to others. If people see what will take place after the Rapture of the Church it might motivate them to share the Gospel with people around them now before it becomes to late.

                                                      Paul2
   
   
   
   

   

[BigD]

Paul2:
I admire the way you are using your knowledge of the book of the Revelation to win others to Christ. It appears to be effective for you. God's word is not coming back void.

Myself, I prefer to present "the gospel of the grace of God" as revealed to the Apostle Paul. That doesn't mean that I never speak of the Tribulation that is to come, or if one dies prior to the Tribulation and what the future holds in store for them then. I also bring up TIMES PAST" as to how thing were under the Law. ALL]/b] of God's Word can be used to lead others to Christ.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!