Over 13,000 Civilians Killed in Iraq

[Bronzesnake]

http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/epilogue.htm

Here's somewhere where you can start, but again I tell you that you will make a fool of yourself by not counting Polish Jews in the 6 million figure.

The number of Jews killed in WW2 from all countries accepted by top, mainline historians runs from Reitlinger's figure of 4.6 million, which I find reasonable, to a middle figure by Hilberg, the most respected of the Jewish WW2 historians of 5.1 to an upper figure of 6.1 held by a few others.

I ask you to either drop the subject, or name one person who will add the 3 million Polish Jews to the 6 million figure. If you can't name one person, and refuse to concede you don't have a source, I'll ignore you in the future.

 Oh, no! please, I beg you, don't ignore me!
Stop! - you're killing me!  

 The graphics used at the top of the web site you cited speaks volumes my friend...

 Perhaps you should invest some time at the following site...

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html

Of course, I don't think you'll like it - there's no German crosses there!

 The six million deaths attributed as a direct result of the death camps are legitimate. These numbers were legitimized by survivors and wittiness accounts. If you lost your mom/dad/sister/brother/husband/wife/relative/friend, you would know it. The numbers were tabulated many years ago, and immediately contested by neo-nazi scum, anti-Semites and revisionists alike. This flies in the face of the horrific experiences of those who were tortured and killed, as well as survivors and family and is a direct extension of the mindset which found the final solution a reasonable undertaking in the first place.

 Once we humble ourselves to accept the truth as relayed by those who lived through it, we quickly realize that on top of the six million who died in death camps, there were obviously many other Jews killed outside of the death camps. Many were arrested and shot, (see info on web I provided) or otherwise disposed of by not only nazis, but also a host of other anti-Semites who took the opportunity to ride the "free-for-all" Jew extermination band wagon.

 Bronzesnake

[Tim Vaughan]

The six million deaths attributed as a direct result of the death camps are legitimate. These numbers were legitimized by survivors and wittiness accounts. If you lost your mom/dad/sister/brother/husband/wife/relative/friend, you would know it. The numbers were tabulated many years ago, and immediately contested by neo-nazi scum, anti-Semites and revisionists alike. This flies in the face of the horrific experiences of those who were tortured and killed, as well as survivors and family and is a direct extension of the mindset which found the final solution a reasonable undertaking in the first place.

Well! You provide a source! Nizkor.

I will bet you a 100 dollar donation to this site that if we contact the Nizkor Project, an organization that I am very familiar with and who's resources I use, they will tell you about half of the 6 million figure is due to concentration camp conditions (starvation, various methods of executions etc..) and about half due to policies of starvation outside the camps, summery execution by Einsatzgruppen, etc...

Specifically, they will say that you are wrong in that any respected holocaust scholar holds to a figure of 6 million Jews dead in concentration camps. If I'm right, you donate 100 dollars to this site, and if you're right, I donate 100 dollars to this site.

Don't run.

[Tim Vaughan]

I contacted the head of Nizkor and here is his reply

> Hello Mr. McVay
>
> I thought that you should know that one of those Christian
> Zionists is quoting the Nizkor Project to support his contention
> that the 3 million murdered Polish Jews are not counted in the 6
> million figure. Here's what he writes:

They are included, as even a quick survey of existing data
demonstrates.

> Perhaps you should invest some time at the following site...
>
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html
>
> Of course, I don't think you'll like it - there's no German
> crosses there! The six million deaths attributed as a direct
> result of the death camps are legitimate. These numbers were
> legitimized by survivors and wittiness accounts. If you lost your

No one has claimed all 6 million died in death camps - that is
simply not true. The Einsatzgruppen, for instance, murdered about
1.2 million Jews (and Soviet Moslems thought to be Jews) at places
like Babi Yar, where 33000 were murdered and buried in a single
weekend.

Thanks for the note,
Ken

[Bronzesnake]

I contacted the head of Nizkor and here is his reply

> Hello Mr. McVay
>
> I thought that you should know that one of those Christian
> Zionists is quoting the Nizkor Project to support his contention
> that the 3 million murdered Polish Jews are not counted in the 6
> million figure. Here's what he writes:

They are included, as even a quick survey of existing data
demonstrates.

> Perhaps you should invest some time at the following site...
>
> http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar00.html
>
> Of course, I don't think you'll like it - there's no German
> crosses there! The six million deaths attributed as a direct
> result of the death camps are legitimate. These numbers were
> legitimized by survivors and wittiness accounts. If you lost your

No one has claimed all 6 million died in death camps - that is
simply not true. The Einsatzgruppen, for instance, murdered about
1.2 million Jews (and Soviet Moslems thought to be Jews) at places
like Babi Yar, where 33000 were murdered and buried in a single
weekend.

Thanks for the note,
Ken

 I concede. My mistake. However, I do not gamble.(your childish $100 challenge)
The fact remains that 6 million Jews were killed (1.4 million more than you "find reasonable"), with about half as a direct result of death camps - others died in the ghettos, and behind the Eastern front.

 What really sickens me about people like you is the anti - Semitic tone which comes frothing forth out of your mouths and in the way you minimize and belittle the death of so many innocent people simply because they are Jewish.

 The remark you made in your e-mail to Nizkor, and the web-site you cited with the telling graphics are evidence of the kind of person you are - specifically, an anti-Semite...

You wrote...
 

I thought that you should know that one of those Christian Zionists

 I would rather admit I'm wrong about what percentage of Jews may or may not have died inside the death camps, than be a person who spends his time and energy minimizing the numbers to satisfy his anti-Semite appetite.

 as for your comment...
 

Don't run.

 I don't run - especially from weak, black hearted cowards.

 1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 Have a nice life Franz!

Bronzesnake

[Tim Vaughan]

What really sickens me about people like you is the anti - Semitic tone which comes frothing forth out of your mouths and in the way you minimize and belittle the death of so many innocent people simply because they are Jewish.

Yawn. I was right and now I'm an antiSemite. You grossly exaggerated the number of Jewish deaths, so what do that make you?

Oh, what do you think of Hilberg's 5.1 and Reitlinger's 4.6 million figure? In your world does that make two of the most respected Jewish holocaust historians antiSemites?

[Tim Vaughan]

I would rather admit I'm wrong about what percentage of Jews may or may not have died inside the death camps, than be a person who spends his time and energy minimizing the numbers to satisfy his anti-Semite appetite.

I said I was a moderator on a WW2 warcrimes site. Why do you think I spend my time on Jews? For every one Jew murdered there were 6-8 Slavs murdered during that time. Why do you assume I have no interest on other casualties?

There is nothing more profound in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 24 million Russian dead. There is nothing more significant in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 8 million Ukrainian dead. There is nothing more sad about the 6 million Jewish dead than the 3 million Polish dead.

So I have a black heart for not accepting your wild exaggerations? Get real. This whole exchange started when I simply, and without negative speech corrected an obvious mistake in your figures. You responded sharply, and now here we are.

[Kalthzar]

is this flaming yet or still borderline, i am following with interest, but the personal attacks have nothing to do with the argument/ or shouldn't.

[Tim Vaughan]

I really don't mind the black hearted stuff, as long as things are done in accordence with historic, western standards of scholarship. Snake posted a link in haste, and conceded it was a mistake, so whatever. I could care less about an apology.

Do you have any questions about the subject?

[Kalthzar]

no not really, no amount of talking detracts from the horrors of war, particularly this. So i try to live with it.

[Tim Vaughan]

Well I don't have a problem with war per se, and there are a couple wars we've fought in the past that pass the "just war" litmis test (one against an Arab power), but this current foreign adventure well be seen in the future as every bit as bad as what the Nazi's and Commies did in the middle of the last century.

[Pastor Roger]

What really sickens me about people like you is the anti - Semitic tone which comes frothing forth out of your mouths and in the way you minimize and belittle the death of so many innocent people simply because they are Jewish.

Yawn. I was right and now I'm an antiSemite. You grossly exaggerated the number of Jewish deaths, so what do that make you?

Oh, what do you think of Hilberg's 5.1 and Reitlinger's 4.6 million figure? In your world does that make two of the most respected Jewish holocaust historians antiSemites?

I understand Bronzesnakes comment here. Whether you intended it as such or not is the question but the usage of "Christian Zionists" in the context that you used it can definitely be construed as a derogatory, hatefilled and prejudicial statement. It is a term used by most radical anti-semite and anti-christian muslims in the same manner.

 

[Tim Vaughan]

I understand Bronzesnakes comment here. Whether you intended it as such or not is the question but the usage of "Christian Zionists" in the context that you used it can definitely be construed as a derogatory, hatefilled and prejudicial statement. It is a term used by most radical anti-semite and anti-christian muslims in the same manner.

With respect, I was first attacked, then called black hearted for posting accurate information. There is a strong current in Christian Zionist thought that trivialises the sufferings of many people and exaggerate the suffering of Jews, and McVay knew exactly what I was talking about. I freely admit it could have been construed as derogatory, but deny it was hate-filled.

Let me also draw you attention to the fact that I said basically that he didn't know what he was talking about, but didn't attack his spiritual condition, like he did with me.

While I think the modernistic theology of Christian Zionism is dangerous, I think that most people who hold these views are well-meaning and generally "pillars" of our community.

Best regards
Tim

[Bronzesnake]

I would rather admit I'm wrong about what percentage of Jews may or may not have died inside the death camps, than be a person who spends his time and energy minimizing the numbers to satisfy his anti-Semite appetite.

I said I was a moderator on a WW2 warcrimes site. Why do you think I spend my time on Jews? For every one Jew murdered there were 6-8 Slavs murdered during that time. Why do you assume I have no interest on other casualties?

There is nothing more profound in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 24 million Russian dead. There is nothing more significant in the 6 million Jewish dead than in the 8 million Ukrainian dead. There is nothing more sad about the 6 million Jewish dead than the 3 million Polish dead.

So I have a black heart for not accepting your wild exaggerations? Get real. This whole exchange started when I simply, and without negative speech corrected an obvious mistake in your figures. You responded sharply, and now here we are.

 You are right. ( although I'd hardly call it wild exaggerations) there is a stark difference between being wrong, and exaggerating.
 I just went over the initial exchange and I did over react. I automatically assumed your response was  anti-Semitic. Once I visited the URL you provided and saw the German Cross etc, I felt justified in my initial assessment. Then when I read the "Christian Zionist" comment, I was sure you were anti-Semitic.

 Even though you have stated that an apology would be meaningless - I offer it anyway. I apologize.

 Check my many other posts, I do not normally react in this foolish manner - This is a very sensitive topic - I'm sure you will concede this at least. I accept you at your word when you say...

 

I freely admit it could have been construed as derogatory, but deny it was hate-filled.

I misjudged your intent - I admit I went overboard.

If there can be a positive aspect through all of this - it is the fact that you have actually educated me in what I now believe is a realistic assessment of the actual (or close to it) numbers of Jewish deaths during the war. I think Kalthzar stated it perfectly when he/she said...

 

no amount of talking detracts from the horrors of war, particularly this. So i try to live with it.

Bronzesnake

[Tim Vaughan]

You are a gracious person with Christian integrity.

[Bronzesnake]

You are a gracious person with Christian integrity.

Thank you for accepting my apology so...graciously.

Bronzesnake