Opinions please: Forgiven for future sins?

[michael_legna]

Luke 7:46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

If you look at that story closely you see three things almost immediately.

First is that she is forgiven because she loved.  In other words she is believes in Christ fully enough to follow the teachings of Christ and love God and one another.

Second she is forgiven of her sins because she was repentant (though it is not mentioned in the verses quoted she also washed His feet with her tears).

Third she was forgiven of her sins but not told she would not haver to be repentant of future sins, or that she could stop loving God and others.  There is no promise of unconditional forgiveness of future sins in this story. , or any story in the scriptures.  That is why we are told to repent and confess our sins to have them forgiven.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness.  IF we confess our sins...

[sojourner]

Just an added note as I have not seen anyone either acknowledge or comment on my much earlier post regarding the petition in the Lords Prayer.

We are not forgiven until we forgive our brother. The same triangle is always in progress. God, brother, me. Sin against brother is a sin against God, but God wants us to forgive our brothers first, then He will forgive.
Ever ongoing, constant. Unless one feels that they no longer sin.

[Aiki Storm]

You know that distance you feel when you sin against God?  And the closeness you begin to feel to God when you confess your sins and forgive others.  We become far from Him when we sin.  

Sin distances people from God.  Especially believers.  We may be forgiven, but we are instructed to ask for forgiveness.  If one sins and does not feel guilty about it and says to himself 'God has already forgiven me', he was not truly saved.  Sin grieves the Holy Spirit.  Those with the Holy Spirit know this.

If you sin from now on until you die and don't ask for forgiveness and don't forgive others, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when Judgement day comes around.  

Thats my take on it.

Peace and God bless all

[I_Believe]

Do the Will of the Father

Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 7:20-21)

By the fruit of their faith you will know them. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess but then it will be too late.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (Rom 2:13)

By the works of the law no flesh will be justified.  We are no longer under the law but under grace.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Love God and Mankind

Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted Him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said to him, What is written in the Law? How do you read it? And answering, he said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself. And He said to him, You have answered right; do this and you shall live. But he, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus, And who is my neighbor? (Luk 10:25-29)

Jesus teaching those under the law knowing the man was only trying to justify himself.  By the works of the law no flesh will be justified.  We are no longer under the law but under grace.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left. Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink;... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. (Mat 25:31-46)

Jesus didn't say that these merited salvation.  They showed themselves righteous by their fruit. Nothing about working for salvation here.

[Part 1]

[I_Believe]

Keep the Commandments

Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22
And behold, one came and said to Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to Him, Which? Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him, I have kept all these things from my youth up; what do I lack yet? Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in Heaven. And come, follow Me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 19:16-23) same story Mar 10:17 & Luke 18:18

Jesus taught the man that the he could not get there by the law.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment." But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell. Therefore if you offer your gift on the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you have paid the last kodrantes. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mat 5:17-28)

Jesus taught them that the he could not get there by the law and even made the law more difficult that it had traditionally been interpreted.  He cam to fulfill the law.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Do not marvel, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him. By this we have known the love of God, because He laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But whoever has this world's goods and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of God dwell in him? My children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And in this we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him, that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us. (1Jo 3:13-24)

How do we know that we have believed on the name of His Son Jesus Christ? By the Spirit which He gave to us.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

For he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives through the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we will live with him through the power of God toward you. Test your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don't you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. But I hope that you will know that we aren't disqualified. (2Co 13:4-6)

How do we know that we are in the faith? By the Spirit which He gave to us.

[Part 2]

[I_Believe]

Repent

2Co 7:10
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you were made sorry to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly way, that you might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world works death. For behold, this same thing, that you were made sorry in a godly way, what earnest care it worked in you. Yes, what defense, indignation, fear, longing, zeal, and vengeance! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be pure in the matter. (2Co 7:9-11)

Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation by faith in Christ. The only way to truly believe Christ for salvation is to repent of your sinfulness. Nothing about working for salvation here.  We didn't work up a Godly sorrow.  To each is given a measure of faith.  It says "you demonstrated yourselves to be pure in the matter" not that you worked and became pure in the matter.

Rom 3:19-31  Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God...(31)  Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood

John 6:54
They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." ...Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." ...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father. Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." ...He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him...He who eats this bread will live forever." ... "Does this cause you to stumble? Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life. (Joh 6:28-63)

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...

This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day...Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life.

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

He gives us the literal first then the figurative.  Nothing about working for salvation here.  

[Part 3]

[I_Believe]

Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. "Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden. Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:3-16)

"You are the light of the world...let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven"  

Show the fruit of the Spirit that is in you.  We have no light of our own.  Describing attributes (bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God).  Nothing about working for salvation here.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luk 18:10-14)

"Contrasts on who thinks his works have merit with the one who trusts only in God’s mercy. Nothing “positive” about working for salvation here.

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10
Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 5:10)

Describing what the world does to those who believe.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

[Part 4]

[I_Believe]

Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life

Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30
But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men." Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. (Mat 16:23-25)

Describing attributes of those who have not believed and in faith given their life to Christ.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. (Mar 8:35)

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it... For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed, when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God." (Luk 9:24-27)

Whoever seeks to save his life loses it, but whoever loses his life preserves it. (Luk 17:33)

Jesus answered them, "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Most certainly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life. (Joh 12:23-25)

He who hates his old sinful life and turns and believes (has faith) will have eternal life in Christ.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. "Aren't two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father's will, but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore don't be afraid. You are of more value than many sparrows. Everyone therefore who confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 10:28-33)

The fruitful works by word or deed proclaim/confess our faith in Christ.  You will know them by their fruit. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Rom 10:10-13  For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  (11)  For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."  (12)  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.  (13)  For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  

This does not mean a mute person will not be saved because they can not speak. "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

[Part 5]

[I_Believe]

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28
But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (Joh 10:26-28)

Statement of fact. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1
2Pe 2:1-22  But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.  (2)  Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.  (3)  In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn't linger, and their destruction will not slumber.  (4)  For if God didn't spare angels...and didn't spare the ancient world...(6) and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly;  (7)  and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked  (  (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds):  (9)  the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;  (10)  but chiefly those who walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise authority...But these, as unreasoning creatures, born natural animals to be taken and destroyed, speaking evil in matters about which they are ignorant, will in their destroying surely be destroyed,  (13)  receiving the wages of unrighteousness; people who count it pleasure to revel in the daytime, spots and blemishes, reveling in their deceit while they feast with you; ...These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever.  (18)  For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error;  (19)  promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him.  (20)  [/b]For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  (21)  For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.[/b]

They had knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and had known the way of righteousness but turned back from the holy commandment delivered to them. They deny the Master who bought them. He paid for the sins of all men but is only those who believe in Him for salvation that partake of that promise. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Rom 8:1-11  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  (2)  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.  (3)  For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;  (4)  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (5)  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  (6)  For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;  (7)  because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be.  (  Those who are in the flesh can't please God.  (9)  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  (10)  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

[Part 6]

[I_Believe]

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21
Mat 18:1-14  In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?"  (2)  Jesus called a little child to himself, and set him in the midst of them,  (3)  and said, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.  (4)  Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven...(10)  See that you don't despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.  (11)  For the Son of Man came to save that which was lost.  (12)  "What do you think? If a man has one hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, doesn't he leave the ninety-nine, go to the mountains, and seek that which has gone astray?  (13)  If he finds it, most certainly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.  (14)  Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Mat 19:13-14  Then little children were brought to him, that he should lay his hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.  (14)  But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to ones like these."  

Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child. When we understand our need we will trust Christ for our salvation. If we trust in ourselves and our works then we will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jam 5:14-20  Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord,  (15)  and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.  (16)  Confess your offenses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The insistent prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective.  (17)  Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and it didn't rain on the earth for three years and six months.  (18)  He prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.  (19)  Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,  (20)  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

“among you” does not necessarily mean they had believed in Christ for salvation.

Luk 8:12  Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

1Jo 3:19-24  And by this we know that we are of the truth, and persuade our hearts before him,  (20)  because if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.  (21)  Beloved, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have boldness toward God;  (22)  and whatever we ask, we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.  (23)  This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.  (24)  He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.

Joh 6:28-29  They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?"  (29)  Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

[Part 7]

I will respond to the rest as time permits.

[sincereheart]

Luke 7:46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

If you look at that story closely you see three things almost immediately.

First is that she is forgiven because she loved.  In other words she is believes in Christ fully enough to follow the teachings of Christ and love God and one another.

She loved Christ.

44   And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45   Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46   My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

Second she is forgiven of her sins because she was repentant (though it is not mentioned in the verses quoted she also washed His feet with her tears).

She loved Christ. See above. 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Third she was forgiven of her sins but not told she would not haver to be repentant of future sins, or that she could stop loving God and others.  There is no promise of unconditional forgiveness of future sins in this story. , or any story in the scriptures.  That is why we are told to repent and confess our sins to have them forgiven.

She loved Christ.
50   And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness.  IF we confess our sins...

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness. Thy faith hath saved thee.....

[michael_legna]

PART 1 OF 9

Thanks for addressing the verses I have posted numerous times and others have choosen to ignore.

However you apparently do not understand my position on works in relation to salvation or have purposely decided to build a strawman to attack as your comment that ends each of your rebuttals is a misstatement of what I am claiming.  I am not saying we work for salvation anymore than you are saying we have salvation because of the strength of our faith, because then it would be something we could boast of.  So claiming as you do repeatedly that these verses do not show that we have to work for salvation is attacking something other than my position and so most of your work is wasted.  I will make it clearer in my response to the first two verses but it applied almost universally to your rebuttal and so I will not repeat that part of my correction to your answer at each and every occurrence to save space.

The other thing you do is that instead of providing your interpretation of these verses you most frequently just try to discredit mine by offering verses that appear to be in opposition to the verses I referenced.  This is not as useful as when both people in the discussion offer interpretations of both set of referenced verses.  That is why I have provided my interpretation of all the verses you referenced (even though you paraphrased most of them and did not even provide a book or verse number reference so anyone could know for sure which one you might be thinking of – and you were complaining when I didn’t type mine out for you!!!)  Since I have provided interpretations now of both sets of referenced verses and these interpretations are at the very least self consistent, I would ask that when you reply you do the same and stop ducking explaining what the verses themselves say instead of trying to satisfy the readers with what they don’t say, otherwise we will never know if your doctrine is even self consistent.

Do the Will of the Father

Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 7:20-21)

By the fruit of their faith you will know them. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess but then it will be too late.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

This is not merely a discussion of judging fruit it says if all you do is acknowledge Him as Lord, only by your lips (paying lips service but not really following His teachings), mere mental assent only - or in other words faith alone - you will not be saved.  Only those who do the will of the Father (works) as well, will make it into heaven.  Not because of these works but because without them your faith was not real.  So the condition on accepting the free gift of salvation is to have both faith and works.

The verse is very clear those who just say that they accept Jesus as their Lord will not be saved, but those who both accept Him as Lord and do the will of the Father will be.

For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (Rom 2:13)

By the works of the law no flesh will be justified.  

The verse (Gal  2:16) that you try to bring into contrast with the one I referenced (Rom 2:13) is of course not contradicting the one I referenced as the two verses cannot contradict one another.  Therefore either my interpretation is wrong or yours is.  I believe the Rom 2:13 is pointing to the importance of works of loving obedience to His teachings to fulfill the spirit of the law (as He taught us to do) through love.  I would interpret Gal 2:16 to be speaking about works of the letter of the law for which we might boast aimed at meriting salvation as some tried to do in the Old Testament because they did not understand that God wants mercy not sacrifice.  This letter of the law is what Paul knew kills but the spirit brings life.

We are no longer under the law but under grace.  

Of course this reference to Rom 6:14 is also being presented as if in opposition to the verse Rom 2:13.  But Rom 6:14 is not saying we are not supposed to keep the commandments of God.  It is saying that we do not have to (nor were we ever suppose to) slavishly adhere to some rigorous, literal, legalistic interpretation of the letter of the law.  God always wanted us to understand the intent of the law (which is simply to love God and love one another Rom 13:.  So we are still under the spirit of the law and grace makes it possible (when we cooperate with it) to fulfill the law through love..

Because you chose to try to contrast verses rather than offer an alternative interpretation for the verse I referenced I have no idea if your can provide an interpretation of Rom 2:13 that is self consistent within your own doctrine.  I would be interested in see that interpretation.

Nothing about working for salvation here.[/i]

Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation.  I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ.  You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.

END OF PART 1

[michael_legna]

PART 2 OF 9

Love God and Mankind

Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted Him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said to him, What is written in the Law? How do you read it? And answering, he said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself. And He said to him, You have answered right; do this and you shall live. But he, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus, And who is my neighbor? (Luk 10:25-29)

Jesus teaching those under the law knowing the man was only trying to justify himself.  

That is what you consider to be an interpretation.  Sounds more like an excuse to me.  So what if the lawyer was trying to justify himself – does that make the answer Jesus gave false?  You fail to address His answer unless you are trying the old Protestant fall back answer than Jesus was just being sarcastic with the lawyer and didn’t really mean that you could do those things and inherit eternal life – in which case you make Christ out to be a liar.

What really shows the error of your interpretation is if we look in a similar incident where Jesus discusses the commandments with another intellectual.  In the account in Mark 12:28-34 one of the scribes is trying to find out what the greatest commandment is Jesus takes a slightly different tact with him, but still tells him that keeping of these great commandments lead to the kingdom of God.

Mar 12:28-34  And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?   And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:   And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jesus clearly is teaching the lesson that the law is not been done away with, that of the law being fulfilled through love and if you do so and endure in these works of obedience to the spirit of the law that this is more effective than all sacrifices (because God wants mercy not sacrifice).  This new approach to fulfilling the law involve works that do not merit salvation but serve to enliven and perfect our faith to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

When you respond to these rebuttal posts of mine I would ask that you provide an interpretation of this verse when you go back to offer an interpretation of the others.

By the works of the law no flesh will be justified.  

By this lame paraphrasing of  Gal 2:16 you simply try to offer the same answer to this verse reference as you offered to the last one.  Consistent but not very successful as the errors in your interpretation are the same and so, so is my answer.

The verse (Gal  2:16) that you try to bring into contrast with the one I referenced (Rom 2:13) is of course not contradicting the one I referenced as the two verses cannot contradict one another.  Therefore either my interpretation is wrong or yours is.  I believe the Rom 2:13 is pointing to the importance of works of loving obedience to His teachings to fulfill the spirit of the law (as He taught us to do) through love.  I would interpret Gal 2:16 to be speaking about works of the letter of the law for which we might boast aimed at meriting salvation as some tried to do in the Old Testament because they did not understand that God wants mercy not sacrifice.  This letter of the law is what Paul knew kills but the spirit brings life.

We are no longer under the law but under grace.  

Of course this reference to Rom 6:14 is also being presented as if in opposition to the verse Rom 2:13.  But Rom 6:14 is not saying we are not supposed to keep the commandments of God.  It is saying that we do not have to (nor were we ever suppose to) slavishly adhere to some rigorous, literal, legalistic interpretation of the letter of the law.  God always wanted us to understand the intent of the law (which is simply to love God and love one another Rom 13:.  So we are still under the spirit of the law and grace makes it possible (when we cooperate with it) to fulfill the law through love..

Because you chose to try to contrast verses rather than offer an alternative interpretation for the verse I referenced I have no idea if your can provide an interpretation of Luke 10:25-28 that is self consistent within your own doctrine.  I would be interested in see that interpretation.

Nothing about working for salvation here.[/i]

Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation.  I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ.  You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left. Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink;... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. (Mat 25:31-46)

Jesus didn't say that these merited salvation.  They showed themselves righteous by their fruit. Nothing about working for salvation here.

This is even a more direct display of the strawman you have chosen to attack rather than address my position.  I am not claiming that these works merit salvation, that is merely the poor understanding Protestantism has always had of the Catholic position and so I understand why you slip into it when you do not pay close enough attention to what is being claimed but this failing does not make your argument any stronger.

Jesus is very clearly saying that those who did works of mercy, loving works of obedience to His new commandment (John 13:34) (they are sheep after all – a clear reference to those who follow Jesus and His teachings) thus fulfilling the spirit of the law (not the letter in an attempt to merit salvation as you seem to think I am claiming) were welcomed into heaven and those who did not have these works and so did not have a true living faith were not welcomed.  Since you seem to think that works play no role in salvation then it is possible to have faith without works and that means that the goats could have had faith alone, and yet they were not allowed into heaven.  Faith alone is not sufficient to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

This account of sheep and goats parallels the account above we discussed in Matt 7:20-21 where those who cry Lord, Lord and do not do the will of God (loving works of mercy) are the goats and the sheep are those who follow Jesus and thus do works of loving obedience.  So we have two verses which directly compliment each other, both saying the same thing – works play a role in salvation as much as faith does.  That is why love is greater than faith. (1 Cor 13:13)

END OF PART 2

[michael_legna]

PART 3 OF 9

Keep the Commandments

Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22
And behold, one came and said to Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to Him, Which? Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him, I have kept all these things from my youth up; what do I lack yet? Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in Heaven. And come, follow Me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 19:16-23) same story Mar 10:17 & Luke 18:18

Jesus taught the man that the he could not get there by the law.  

Where do you get that from the verse above?  It says completely the opposite in the verses you bolded yourself.

It says - If you want to get to heaven follow the commandments.
The man said I have done all these things all my life (referring to the literal keeping of the law in a legalistic way to merit salvation)

But Jesus knew his heart and said - Oh really!  If you have offered mercy and not just sacrifice then prove it sell everything you own and give it to the poor – these are true acts of love that fulfill the spirit of the law which leads to life (2 Cor 3:6) – then you will truly have done the works which are part of a proper acceptance of the free gift.

Not only that but later we see that those who do the work of mercy of denying themselves in service of the Gospel will also be rewarded for it.  How are they rewarded?  Not by crowns in heaven but by eternal life itself, clearly linking salvation to the condition of works of love for God and our fellow man.  These works cannot be done in some legalistic literal way in an attempt to fulfill some contract thus making God a debtor, but must be done out of love for God in obedience to His call to pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him.
   

Nothing about working for salvation here.

And this is just the strawman I have explained away repeatedly before.  I am just going to delete the rest of these types of comments and not respond to them over and over again to save space.

Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment." But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell. Therefore if you offer your gift on the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you have paid the last kodrantes. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mat 5:17-28)

Jesus taught them that the he could not get there by the law and even made the law more difficult that it had traditionally been interpreted.

No that is not what Jesus was doing.  He was telling us that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness had to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees – that is not the same thing at all.  It is a common Protestant misconception that the scribes and Pharisees were exceedingly righteous and so Jesus was telling us we would have to do even better.  But the scribes and Pharisees were not righteous.  True they were very good at satisfying the letter of the law, but the letter killeth.  But they focused on tithes of mint and cumin (Matt 23:23) while devouring old widows houses (Matt 23:14).  They were terrible at fulfilling the spirit of the law for life (that is what is works of righteousness) and we can exceed them in righteousness through loving one another as He commanded us.  This failing of Protestants to not see the Pharisees as righteous explains why they never developed a proper doctrine of salvation.

In one way you are right the spirit of the law can be more demanding (such as looking on a woman with lust being the same as adultery) but the works we have to do to fulfill the law are easier to know when one is and is not staying with in them because all you have to do is ask yourself is this how you would want to be treated.

He came to fulfill the law.

Yes and He also came to teach us how to fulfill the law.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:8-10  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.   For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

END OF PART 3

[michael_legna]

PART 4 OF 9

Do not marvel, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him. By this we have known the love of God, because He laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But whoever has this world's goods and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of God dwell in him? My children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And in this we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him, that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us. (1Jo 3:13-24)

How do we know that we have believed on the name of His Son Jesus Christ? By the Spirit which He gave to us.

For he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives through the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we will live with him through the power of God toward you. Test your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don't you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. But I hope that you will know that we aren't disqualified. (2Co 13:4-6)

How do we know that we are in the faith? By the Spirit which He gave to us.

Again rather than offer an interpretation of the verse I reference you pull up another verse to offer as contrast to the one I reference. I certainly hope when you respond to this rebuttal you come back with actual interpretations of both sets of verses as I have done so we can see if your doctrine can self consistently address all the verses because if it cannot it is wrong.

Because of this your entire analysis goes off in another direction and never addresses whether salvation is linked to works which is the evidence in the verse I reference by the following facts

“we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers”
“no murderer has everlasting life”
“shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of God dwell in him?’
“if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence toward God”

My reference was just to the fact that a murder could not have eternal life – thus linking salvation to works with no mention of faith at all.  But sense you extended the reference to show the context (and then surprisingly never interpreted that context to show what it might mean to support your doctrine) I have analyzed it for you showing that even the context shows that salvation is related to works.

Another section of this verse reference (as you extended it) that needs to be addressed is 1 John 3:23 which shows that the message in John 6:29, that the work of god is to believe in His Son, is not complete.  How is this message of faith alone completed or supplemented?  By adding love (works) to faith.

You refer to how we know we are in the faith – by the spirit, but you offer no scripture to support this idea.  I did a search for these terms in the KJV and did not find a verse that says this, but it is clear you are not using that translation so I would like to know what verse from your translation you are using to support this idea.  The verse you reference clearly says that we are to test ourselves to see if we are abiding in or properly living out our faith, so the very verse you reference seems to disagree with this claim of yours.

I do agree that the verse you reference (2 Cor 13:4-6) can be interpreted as merely showing us who has a true saving faith through their works.  But even to suggest this approach says that faith will always be accompanied by works – so faith alone cannot happen except for the form of faith which does not have good works associated with it and that type of faith is not acceptable for salvation.  Thus we end up with two types of faith one that is acceptable for salvation and one that is not and yet the one that is acceptable does not merit or qualify as a condition on the free gift.  So why is it so hard for you to see that there are two types of works, one that is not acceptable for salvation because it is attempting to merit salvation through strict adherence to the letter of the law without concern for what the law really means, and one that is acceptable for salvation because it is a loving obedience to the teachings of Christ which is part and parcel of believing in Him.

A side note: what translation are you using the wording of the verses you are using are extremely different from most of the standard translations I checked it against.

Repent

2Co 7:10
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you were made sorry to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly way, that you might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world works death. For behold, this same thing, that you were made sorry in a godly way, what earnest care it worked in you. Yes, what defense, indignation, fear, longing, zeal, and vengeance! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be pure in the matter. (2Co 7:9-11)

Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation by faith in Christ. The only way to truly believe Christ for salvation is to repent of your sinfulness. Nothing about working for salvation here.  

The verse clearly says that repentance is a condition on salvation.  Repentance isn’t faith, repentance is works.  That is because repentance is not merely a change of mind or heart.  The Greek word translated as repentance is a military term for about face.  It is a turning of ones life around.  Repentance comes before faith, because one cannot have faith in a savior until one realizes that one needs one and that requires one to recognize their failings and decide to turn one’s life around.

We didn't work up a Godly sorrow.  To each is given a measure of faith.  It says "you demonstrated yourselves to be pure in the matter" not that you worked and became pure in the matter.

Whether we are given a measure of faith through the gift of grace as Rom 12:3 indicates does not imply that we didn’t work up a Godly sorrow.  True without His grace we cannot even seek him but we still have to respond and cooperate with that grace.  For that reason both the repentance we experience and the faith we receive a measure of,, is our own.  If faith was not of us then we would all be saved as all are given grace and so all would have faith.  The same argument can be made for repentance.

Rom 3:19-31  Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God...(31)  Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

Yes the law as our schoolmaster showed us that we cannot possibly fulfill it completely – we all fall short.  That is because the details of the law were too complex and man’s nature is such that he want to be lazy about things and not have to think of others hoping to fulfill the law through a literal approach.  This is impossible and not what God wants anyway, so we learn we need a savior.

Gal 3:24-25  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Yes our faith in Christ and His message does indeed establish the law because it is His teaching that we should abandon a life of trying to fulfill some list of requirements and sacrifices by rote, and move on to a life of love and mercy for our fellow man.  That is because faith is not simply the holding of a belief in Christ as the sacrificial lamb.  We must also have faith in His teachings, faith in Him as shepherd and Lord and King and that entails following Him and obeying.

END OF PART 4