Why born again?

[sincereheart]

I said that Catholics could not be compared to JWs, Mormons, and Armstrongites, and that is a completely true statement. JWs, Mormons, and Armstrongites all completely deny the deity of one or more of The Holy Trinity.

When there was an influx of nudity on this forum, they also seemed to believe in the Trinity.  

[Heidi]

I can only speak for myself here. My "born again" experience was drastic so I can pinpoint the day I saw the world with new eyes. If you don't know whether or not you're born again, all you have to do is ask Christ into your life. Tell Him you want to know HIM personally with all your heart, soul, and mind. Then wait until you recognize His spirit which is peace, love, faith, joy, and hope. In the meantime, read ALL of His words until you understand them. That will increase your faith exponentially. Jesus said; "He who seeks will find." That is a fact. Good luck and God bless.

[Heidi]

You are right, BUTHCA. You are also being honest which is the heart of a true seeker and extremely difficult to do. The Holy Spirit can only enter a person when they say, "I have no more answers. Please help me. I give up." That is complete and total submission to a power higher than yourself.  But if we still have resistance like, "I'm good, I've lived a good life," then we have not admitted why we need Christ's forgiveness. He will only come to us when we KNOW inside of us that we are sinners and have no power on our own to rid ourselves of it. Then we are truly seeking God because we know from the bottom of our hearts our own sin. "Jesus said, "No one is good but God alone." That perfect man didn't even include Himself! How then can any of us call ourselves good? He knew what is inside the human heart; greed, lust, pride, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth. We all indulge in these everyday. He also knew that the only one to give Him power over that was his Father in heaven. All God wants from us is the truth. True repentance is usually accompianied by tears, remorse, and a desire for help. Then it's from our hearts than from "trying to show we are wonderful" which is the sin of pride. We usually do have to come to the end of ourselves, acknowledging that all we have inside of us is sin and that God's Holy Spirit is the only thing that can save us. That is true humility. That's why Jesus said to come to Him like little children who don't pretend to be have the answers like we adults do. That is our pride that keeps us from God. Just be honest with God about all of your sin. We are riddled with it! I hope this helps.

[Heidi]

I just want to add, BUTHCA, that coming to the cross can be a painful thing. Most of us want to escape our pain by chasing after worldly things. But that doesn't work because worldly things do not last. We will all eventually have to face our pain, either on this earth or when we die. We cannot run away from it. That's why only the truth can set us free! If we come to the corss with the truth about ourselves, then out of that pain comes something glorious! God knows that we cannot save ourselves. So He sent His Son to give His life up so that we can be set free from sin! He took our sins with Him on the cross. But He cannot take away sins that have not been confessed. That's why all God wants from us is the truth about our sins. All of them. Only then can we receive His unending grace, love, anfd forgiveness that NO ONE can take out of our hearts! The truth really does set us free!

[AVBunyan]

I believe one has to born again to enter into the kingdom of God. I know the conversation between the Lord Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3 is world famous.

But why, I mean, what is the "real reason", to be born again?

Here is a post that I posted a while back - it deals with both the water and the phrase "born again" - I trust this will help.

May God bless.

John 3:3-7 – An Explanation

I seen a lot of confusion lately over the below text:

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I would like to, if I can, clear up some misunderstandings on this verse.  

There are two main doctrines that are here in this verse are as follows:
1. “Born again” vs. 3– linked to the popular phrase “born again”
2. “Water and of the Spirit” – most commonly linked to water baptism

I would like to tackle the second one first vs. 5 – water.  This is the easiest. Note the context of verse 5 refers back to vs. 4.  The Lord in verse 3 told Nicodemus that he had to be born again.  Immediately Nicodemus thought he had to come out of the mother’s womb again.  Jesus answers and two things take place:  “Except a man be born of water (physical birth for you are in a sack of water inside the womb) and the Spirit you cannot enter in.  Jesus said, “You must have a physical birth (womb of water) and a spiritual birth.  There is no mention of water baptism here.  The reference “of water” is associated with the physical birth that all men must have first.  Look at verse 6 where Jesus talks of a fleshly birth (from the womb).  There are two births being discussed: physical (“flesh is flesh”) and the spiritual birth.
The part regarding “born again” is a little tougher to follow.  I will tell you what I believe and you study it through and see if these things be so (Acts. 17:11).

Jesus was dealing with one of the leaders of Israel and not Jesus used the word “ye” must be born again in vs.7 referencing the Jewish nation as a whole for Nicodemus was representing the leadership of the Jews at that time.  Jesus didn’t say “you” must be born again but “ye” (plural).  Now, let me paraphrase and then I will move on.  “Marvel not…..unto thee (Nicodemus), Ye (Israel) must be born again.

   Now lets look at this “born again”.  As we all know Israel blew it with God in the OT.  God now calls them “Loammi” for they are not God’s people.  Though Israel walked away from God we know that God will bring back his people.  God gave them the chance in the gospels and they killed Jesus.  Jesus on the cross asks the Father to forgive them (Israel) for they knew not what they did so the Father gives them another chance in the book of Acts.  As we know they stoned Stephen so…..Israel rejected God the Father in the OT., God the Son in the gospels and then, finally God the Holy Ghost in Acts.  Despite all that rejection God still made and covenant with Israel and will honor it and make unbelieving Israel believing Israel.  How and when will God do this?
First, how?  By doing a supernatural work in their hearts.  When? at the end of tribulation and right before they enter into the kingdom.  God will revive the valley of dry bones in Ezek. 37:4-14 by His Spirit.  Now compare this passage with Isa. 66:8 (note “born at once”) and Eze. 36:26,27.

Now go to Heb. 8:8 and you will get a complete picture.  Right before the 1,000 yr. Reign the Lord will raise up unbelieving Israel, put a new heart and Spirit in them and then take them into the land that was promised to them.  Then they will become the nation of priests on earth resenting God to the nations of the earth.
 
So, yes, Nicodemus, you have to born physically first and then “Ye” (Israel) will experience a spiritual birth.  Now, note, their being “born again” will be their same form of bodies just a rebuilding of a human body that will house God’s Spirit.  That is why the term “born again” fits this.   This operation of God will be just a new birth from their old bodies redone.

How does this relate to us for you hear the term “born again” all the time?   Now, let’s have some fun and get a blessing.  When God saved your sorry soul (mine too) He didn’t just take your old body and put a new Spirit in it.  It looks as though that is all He did but there is more.  We need to see ourselves as God truly sees us.  What happened to you is that you were made a new “creature” – II Cor. 5:17.  Why did Paul use the term “new creature”?  Because when you were saved you were spiritually baptized into the body of Christ – this was a new operation not done before this age of grace.  You became bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh and raised you up and seated you in heavenly palaces at the right hand of God (Eph. 1,2).  Therefore you are a new “creature” in Christ and nobody before this age has this privilege.  Israel gets some land and you get to be a part of Christ’s body in the heavenly palaces for all eternity?  Yeeehaaaw – Gloreeeeee to God!

Can’t you see you are not just “born again” (sounds good and all and I don’t panic when people use it.)  You have been made a new creature in Christ Jesus.  Won’t you admit that somebody being literally put in the literal body of Christ is a “new creature.”  Yes, my dear saints, you have something better than just getting into the land.  You have Christ in you, the hope of glory.  You (the body of Christ) are part of a plan by God that was from “BEFORE” the foundation of the world.  In other words you were planned in eternity.  Israel and the Gentiles was just “from” the foundation of the world – Matt. 25:24.  Your standing in Christ was from “before” the foundation of the world.   The body of Christ is not limited to mansions - John 14 – our abode is above the third heavens in eternity with Christ (Eph. 2:4).  Look at you, it is Christ “in” you.  The disciples just had the Spirit dwelling amongst them (John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.).

You may be down here in your old, tired, sinful flesh but the real you (saved and redeemed, glorified, etc.) is in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.  Your standing is this – Perfect in the Son seated at the right hand of God, perfect with Christ’s righteousness.  This is how God sees the real you.  Now your state down here may be in a mess but up there where the real you is it is perfect.  This is what God did to you through Christ at Calvary.

Now, what is your duty because of so great privileges?  Turn to Eph. 4:1. God just got finished telling you what great things He hath done for you in the first three chapters of Ephesus and in 4:1 He tells you what to do about it.  Paul says, “Eph 4:1  I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,”.  You are perfect in heaven blessed with all spiritual blessings then walk down here like you believe it.  In other words “walk, your position.”  In the following 3 chapters Paul tells you how you should act based upon your position in Christ.

So, I trust that someone will get a blessing.  This is not original thinking from me.  I learned this after being under the same preacher for over 20 years who seeks to know all he can about God, Christ and the Christian life.   If you do not agree with this then, that’s ok for this a forum.  

Again - May God bless!

[Heidi]

So if water baptism is merely being born from our mother's womb, why then did John the baptist go around baptizing people with water? According to the above interpretation, we wouldn't need that.

[AVBunyan]

So if water baptism is merely being born from our mother's womb, why then did John the baptist go around baptizing people with water? According to the above interpretation, we wouldn't need that.

The issue in John 3 was not water baptism.  Yes, John baptized according to John 1:31.  These are two separate issues.  The real issue in John 3 is not water but the importance of Israel being born again which I discussed in my post on John 3.  People assumed the water of the womb in John 3 to be water baptism and thus all the confusion.

Two different incidents dealing witt two different issues.

I trust this clears your question up a bit .

May God bless  

[Heidi]

I realize the biggest issue is being born again of the spirit. But you didn't answer my question. If water baptism means being born of the flesh, then why did John The Baptist go around baptizing people with water?

[Heidi]

Butcha,
when you say, "I know i fall short, we all do", are you saying; "yeah, I mess up, but who cares?" Or do you have remorse that you slip up and want to change? The former will keep you from God. The latter will lead you to Christ to take away your sins.

[Heidi]

You CANNOT live a better life without God, Butcha. Otherwise we wouldn't need forgiveness! God sent his Son BECAUSE we cannot obey the law! Romans, 7:8, "For i would have not known what coveting was if the law had not said, 'Do not covet'. But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment produced in me every kind of covetous desire." What he is saying is that trying on our own to "live a good life" actually makes us do the opposite. It's like saying; "don't think of an elephant." It is for this reason that Jesus FULFILLED the law for us! Since we cannot obey it on our own, all we have to do is come to Him, confess our sins, and his love, mercy, and forgiveness REPLACES our desire to sin. We can no more "decide" to love our neighbor than we can "decide to forgive. All we have to do is admit that we do NOT love our neighbor ask for forgiveness, and Christ's love, mercy, and forgiveness is what we give to our neighbor! That is why only the truth sets us free! Since Jesus fulfilled the law for us, we are no longer under the law but under grace. Therefore, all we have to do is admit the truth, and come to HIM. When we receive his forgiveness, it is that forgiveness that we give to others. trying to do it without Christ's forgiveness will only breed more pride because we are giving ourselves the credit for our goodness than to God. We are then perpetuating sin.

[I_Believe]

author=Heidi
I realize the biggest issue is being born again of the spirit. But you didn't answer my question. If water baptism means being born of the flesh, then why did John The Baptist go around baptizing people with water?

Joh 3:3-18 is not talking about water baptism although there are some parallels...flesh and water, Spirit and Spirit

You are born of your mother through the flesh.  

You are born again (2nd birth) through the Spirit when you believe in Christ.

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?... And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (Joh 3:3-18)

...when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him. (1Pe 3:20-22)

"This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you" - the Baptism that saves is "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" not "the putting away of the filth of the flesh".

[Heidi]

Then you are not saved, BUTCHA because you do not believe Jesus's words when He said we have to be born again of water and the spirit. If you don't believe Jesus, then he is not your Lord and saviour. You believe other people's words instead. I don't know how you could have interpreted my post to mean you don't have to be born again. You cannot turn yourself over to Christ if He does not rule you because we, on our own, without the Holy Spirit, have no power to do that. You have already shown that you are not doing that by your lack of belief in his words that we have to be born again. You believe your words instead of His.

[Heidi]

If you're not sure whether you're born again, BUTCHA, (which it doesn't seem that you are sure), then simply ask God to show you who He is and He will. In the mean time, read Jesus's words until you believe every one of them.

[I_Believe]

Butcha,

I believed when I was in my early 20's and there was a night and day difference.

My wife can't remember ever not believing.  She knows the Good News truth of Christ and believes it and the fruit of the Spirit is as evident in her as me.

So Butcha, ask God to move His Spirit within you to testify to your spirit.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom 8:14-17)

the simplicity that is in Christ - "what must I do to be saved?"..."Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Act 16)

[I_Believe]

 i dont have a story.

ya i had bad things happen to me . i had a bad childhood .  but i was with God and i sinned but never did i not feel like i wasnt trying to walk they way God wanted me to.

hopeless huh

BUTCHA

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1-4)

I always believed there was a God but I thought I needed to get good enough to please him.  I did not know grace because I had not faith.  All my efforts were as a polluted garment before God.  I was weak in the flesh.

For we have all become as one who is unclean, and all our righteousness is as a polluted garment: and we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (Isa 64:6)

For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Rom 10:10-13)

May God bless you!