there never was a law that could save

[Petro]

kasey,

The OT was conditional upon obedience to the Mosaic Law (law of sin and death), given at Mt Sion, this whole system of the Levitical worship was abolished.

You and others may try and separate the 10 commandment from the other ordinances, but the fact is they all were given to Moses by the Lord upon the Mt.

While we all agree, Christians should obey Gods commandments, they are not obeyed in order to be saved, but as a witness and a testimony to the unsaved and because Christians desire to be obedient to God in living a Holy Life, we all fail everyday.

Sin is transgression of the Law, Lets face it, we are weak in the flesh, his is why we are exhorted to live in the Spirit.

Gal 3, makes it clear men were kept under the Law (of Moses) until Faith came, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (vs 23)..

And when Faith came, that is to say, the Faith which is of Jesus Christ, the law was no longer mans teacher schoolmaster, that, we might be justified by faith. (vs 24)

That is why, wopik, who is learning posted this thread, entitling it;

Gal 3
21  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

You see, it is His righteousness, not ours, that grants, to us eternal life, as Paul said at ;

Phil3
3  ................. not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So, in short, mans salvation does not hinge on keeping any commandment, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, and this faith in Him is what imputes the righteousness of God to all believers, just as Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Rom 4:3)

So, the law of sin and death, that is to say, the entire Law of Moses was abolished together with the Old Covenent, and this New Covenent is not by the keeping of any law, but by the Faith of Righteousness, made available thru Gods Mercy and Grace.

Blessings,

Petro

[Pilgrim]

2 Cor. 3:6 “Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.  7  But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:  8  How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?  9  For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.  10  For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  11  For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.  12  Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:  13  And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:  14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.  15  But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.  16  Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.  17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.  18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

2 Corinthians 3 is talking specifically about the Ten Commandments (verses 7) in comparison to the New Covenant. Paul says in verse 3 that they are ministers of the New Covenant (new testament) which is not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit.  The Ten Commandments are not part of the gospel, the gospel and the Ten Commandments are opposed to each other so that they cannot be mixed. The Ten Commandments brought forth death and condemnation while the gospel of the New Covenant brought fort life and a clear conscience before God.

Notice verse 7 refers to the Ten Commandments as a ministry of death, not one of life, and verse nine says the Ten Commandments were a ministry of condemnation, not one that would clear a guilty conscience. I am amazed that some people insist upon putting themselves and others under a ministry of death and condemnation. Why would anyone who is sane want to be under a covenant that could only condemn and kill them in the first place? Are they under a false delusion that a ministry of death and condemnation is able to bring them life and a clear conscience before God? No wonder the apostles, elders and brethren of Jerusalem said it was the subverters of souls that taught that Christians are to keep the law of Moses Acts 15:24).

Verse 11 clearly teaches that the Ten Commandments are done away with and that the New Covenant is what remains. The so-called law keepers cannot explain verse 11. Verse 11 says that the Ten Commandments are done away with and the so-called law keepers say it is not. Who’s lying, the so-called law keepers, or God? I will give a little hint it’s not God. Verse 13 declares that the Ten Commandments are abolished, how can a Christian be subject to something that is abolished and no longer in force? The reason some people insist that the Ten Commandments are in force today is explained in this chapter as well. It’s because they are blind by a vail upon their heart in their understanding of the Old Testament (verse 15). In other words they don’t even understand the purpose of the Old Covenant and like the unbelieving Jews they think that their righteousness is by the deeds of the law (Rom.9:30-33). This vail will only be removed when they repent by turning their hearts away from the ministry of death and condemnation to the cross of Jesus Christ where they will find life and a clear conscience before God.

Like the self righteous Pharisees of old, today’s subverters of souls think that they are serving God when they teach their false gospel of works based salvation. Like the Pharisees of old, they lead souls to hell rather than heaven.

Saint Pilgrim

[Petro]

In the OT,

The commandments go hand in hand with the ordinances, the commandments were given to men, that they might knowthey have sinned, for wiothout the commandments men would not know they have transgressed Gods law.

Once a man, ascertained he had sinned against God,  he could refer to the ordinances to ascertain the remedy, of the broken law, since the transgression required a blood atonement.

That no man could ever be saved by keeping the law perfectly, is clear from;

Rom 3
20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Deeds of the law, above is not refering to the ordinances, but the commandments, by the commandments is the knowledge of sin, very simple.....the ordinances were the solution to the dilema of sin, since sin demand justices, the blood of the transgressor.

You may not believe this, but unfortunately what you believe or not believe won't change this great truth.

Heb 9, makes this point clearly;

22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (Rom 8:3)

8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

It is one thing to speak having the Spirit, it is altogether different to speak about things one does not understand, because one does not possess the Spirit.

Jesus was no mere man, He was the Only Begotten Son of the
God, who created all things, by the power of His might.

Blessngs,
Petro

[Petro]

Gee, Petro, I wonder why you dont quote Hebrews chapter 10 Well, if you wont, I will quote it for you.

Hebrews 10:1-4: (1) For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with thsoe sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats shoulud take way sins.

Verses 1 & 2, are the ones you should have emboldebned;

1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshipers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

The very image was Gods sacrifice He provided Himself, the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world.

Whats your point, the Law, never could make the comers thereunto perfect.

The Commandments were the core of the Levitical system of worship, take away the commandments and you have no reason to sacrifice anything.

And that is exactly what one has in the NT.

The Law is written in the hearts and minds of Believers, this is why there is no need to offer up blood sacrifice for the remission of sin.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (Heb 10:18)

Because,

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more
 (Heb 10:14-17)

Of course you would say, one must keep the law, or lose the gift, the scriptures I have given make you out to be a liar...

As you can see, this passage is talking DIRECTLY about the animal sacrificial laws. You think The Ten Commandments were abolished? No, I think not. You think the Law of God was done away with? No, the Bible does not state that. You want EXTRA proof? Find, lets us turn to this passage

The commandments were abolished with the Old Covenant. this is clear;

I don't know why I am giving you scripture, since you not only do not understand it, but you reject it, but I will in the hope, that one verse will clear this up for you.


2 Cor 3
 2  Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3  Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.
4  And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5  Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Doctrine is taught by Gods Spirit to them that are of age, and those that are, are not half baked, believing what they desire to believe only.

Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: (Isa 28:9-10)

I gave you this verse before, it seems you ignored it.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.  (1 Cor 2:13)

Hebrews 9: 1, 10: (1) Then verily the first had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldy sanctuary. (10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washsings, and carnal ordinances, impost on them UNTIL THE TIME OF REFORMATION.

imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Here they are;

Gal 3
18  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

The entire Law of the OT, was abolished in Christ, the Law written in the hearts of believers is Gods commandments summed up in two;

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

You see, keeping the seventh day sabbath in any of these two??

You can claim what you want, and your disagreemnet isn't with me, it is with the  Holy Spirit, Apostles and Elders, since they agreed and concluded to the question whether it was necessary to keep the Law of Moses, and be circumsiced, which was settled for ever in Holy Writ at; (Acts 15:24-29)

As I stated, the ordinances without the commandments are worthless, seeing there would be no need for blood sacrifice, just as it was, before the law came, and having come 430 years later did disannul the promise made toi the seed.

Well all know that something was done away with with Christ's sacrifice. The context is the animal sacrificial laws. Now, you say I dont know what Im talking about. Well, you better take it up with God because HE says that the animal sacrifices were abolished and that was The Levitical Priesthood System.

I will.........

I will, pray for you, that God will enlighten you concerning these things, so that you will not be taken headlong into this great deception, and that you will not lead others down this path of doubtful disputations, about the law, from which Christians are set free.

Blesings,

Petro





Oh, and Pilgram, Christians dont label others like you have said within your last paragraph on your last post. They merely led the Word of God speak for them, but apparently, you seem to be getting ahead of yourself I love it when people call me a "subverter of souls", shows how much the passage of Matthew 5:11-12 is fulfilled   Cheers!

[ollie]

Too many people say the OT saints kept all those laws and regulations in order to "get saved".

But Paul says that was never the case. He says, "...if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law" (Galatians 3:21).

Paul says there was never a law given that could save us.  That was true for the OT saints as well as the NT saints.

What about the words of Paul in these verses?

 Romans 3:25.  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
 26.  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
 27.  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
 28.  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
 29.  Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
 30.  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
 31.  Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[Pilgrim]

Hi ollie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31 is incorrectly used by many who try to prove that we are still under the law of Moses. This cannot be because the Scripture as many post have already shown say the Mosaic law has been abolished, done away with, made obsolete, was not made for a righteous man, made void, replaced by the New Covenant, and could never draw a person close to God. Also, in Acts 15 the apostles said they never taught that one had to keep the law of Moses which would not be the case if it still was in effect. They also said it was those who subverted souls who taught that people were to keep the Mosaic law.

The law required perfect obedience 100% of the time, the slightest infraction made you guilty of all.  To become righteous by the law you had to keep it perfectly and never break even one command. The religious Jews were self deceived in thinking that they could keep the law the way God demanded. The only one who could keep the law perfectly was Jesus. The Jews thought they could be made righteous by their attempts at keeping the law which was impossible, in doing so they rejected the method that God gave whereby to make one righteous which was through Jesus. The verses below speak of this. Notice the Jews sought to establish righteousness by law keeping rather than by faith in Jesus and were condemned because of it.

Rom 9:31 “But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32  Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

Rom 10:3 “For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5  For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7  Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Notice the law of faith and the law of works being contrasted.

Law of works - 5 “For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”

Law of faith - “6  But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, .... 13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”



Romans 3:20-31 in context is talking about establishing righteousness. These verse teach that righteousness could not be established by the deeds of the law but by the law of faith. By believing on the Lord Jesus Christ one becomes righteous, by trying to be righteous by the law one becomes condemned. Prefect law keeping would establish that one was righteous, the problem was that there were none righteous by the deeds of the law. The Lord Jesus is righteous and therefore was able to keep the law perfectly. What we could not do He could and did. When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ His righteousness is imputed to us through faith. This is how through the law of faith one establishes the law of righteousness. Those who sought to establish righteousness by the deeds of the law failed, those who sought to establish righteousness by faith in Jesus succeeded. Romans 3:31 in context teaches that true righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ not by efforts at law keeping. It does not teach that Christians are to keep the law of Moses.

Pilgrim

[ollie]

Hi, Pilgrim,

The law of faith is not the law as given to Moses.  However Paul mentions it as a law and I presented it in answer to the topics title question. Faith Saves. The laws that donot save are those given to Moses.

We are not under the law of Moses anymore since Jesus Christ demonstrated to us His greater love. There is however still law mentioned in the New Testament and one mentioned is faith. God has always had law since the beginning, but not always the law as given to Moses.

The laws mentioned are the "law of Christ", and the "perfect law of liberty", along with "faith".

[Pilgrim]

Hi ollie,

I didn’t understand at first what you were getting at, sorry. I agree with you. There always was law but it was not always the Mosaic law. From Adam to Moses God gave commands that He expected to be followed. The first law of God mankind broke was eating of the fruit He said not to. Before the Mosaic law was given only to the Israelites, God gave many commands to Noah which all mankind were expected to obey. After the cross we have a new command which is not new which is the law of Christ.

1Jo 3:22 “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Those who obey this command will be saved, those who do not will be dammed.

God Bless,
pilgrim

[michael_legna]

1Jo 3:22 “And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”

Those who obey this command will be saved, those who do not will be dammed.

The neat thing about this is that if we do this we fulfill the law.

Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That is because Christ did not do away with the law but came to fulfill it and teach us how to.

Matt 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Why is this possible - that we can fulfill the law and those in the Old Testament could not?

Because they were trying to fulfill the letter of the law and thus merit their salvation.

Christ taught us that God desires mercy not sacrifice, as in Matt 9:13 and Matt 12:7.  Those of the Old Testament period could have understood this if they had listened as this same message was taught in Hos 6:6.

Paul taught us the same message when he pointed out that the letter kills, but the spirit brings life in 2 Cor 3:6.

None of this would be of course be possible if it had not been for Christ's sacrifice and our acceptance of it through faith.  But through God's grace it was and so we can cooperate with this grace and be converted and become righteous through obedience as you point out.

[michael_legna]

But through God's grace it was and so we can cooperate with this grace and be converted and become righteous through obedience as you point out.

michael_legna --

But what laws do we have to be obedient to??

All of them.

Mat 5:17  Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

But that obedience is to the spirit of the law not the letter.

2Co 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Remember we are suppose to understand now that God wants mercy not sacrifice.

Mat 9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

So we fulfill all these laws through love.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


Mat 22:37-40  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   This is the first and great commandment.   And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[michael_legna]

are you talking about even the laws of sabbaths - weekly and annual of Lev. 23 ??

Yes but recall we are not keeping the letter of the law but the spirit and our love for our fellow man and for God fulfills these laws.

That is why Christ was not breaking the Sabbath when He did good works on the Sabbath, because God want's mercy not sacrifice.  he would rather we spent our time in heart felt service to others (as a way of serving Him in them) than in going through some ritual in a mechanistic manner just to fulfill and obligation.  There is nothing wrong with formal worship but one should not feel compelled to do it if one has some loving servie to perform at that same time.

Remember Paul said -

Rom 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

As long as you are persuaded in your own mind that what you are doing is loving and to the glory of God then what day you worship and all the other ritualistic parts of it become secondary as they are the letter and the love is the spirit of the law.

[michael_legna]

commandment keepers believe, not that the law will save you, but that the law defines righteousness; and if you are going to live a righteous life before God, you have to keep the Ten Commandments.

That is true as long as one realizes that it is the spirit of the law (as taught by Christ) that we can - by following His example - fulfill by Love.  Not the letter of the law that we fulfill perfectly (which the Old Testament taught us we cannot do) in some way thinking that merits us salvation.  If it were not for Christ's sacrifice the gift of salvation would not have been offered and we could not have learned this new economy of salvation in which we love others as He loved us.  That is how we fulfill the law and become righteous after first accepting the washing by His blood, that is the process of sanctification.