Born again Christians vs. "Christians"

[Left Coast]

Royo
It is very possible. Why would you say it is not?
The great joy we have is salvation.
What does the following verse mean to you?

Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Why would an unborn child leap for joy at the salutation of Mary.
People were saved before Jesus. The bible tells us Noah was saved.

Genesis 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD
Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I don’t know what your beliefs are so I’m not sure how to answer you.
Are you one of those that say babies can’t be saved, I would suggest you review the story of David’s son.
Are you one of those that claim there is an age of accountability? What is it and where does the bible mention it.
Are you one of those that claim babies don’t sin? The bible says all have sinned.
C. H. Spurgeon in his sermon, “Infant Salvation”

That this is possible is proved from Scripture instances. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mothers womb. We read of Jeremiah also, that the same had occurred to him; and of Samuel we find that while yet a babe the Lord called him. We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by the blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the “rest which remaineth for the people of God.” By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way.

Salvation is by grace.
What happened to the faithful in the old testament?

Matthew 17:2  And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Matthew 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
 
If they weren’t saved where did Moses and Elias come from?

[Heidi]

I think you're both right. Before Christ came to the earth, obviously no one could accept Him. BUT the ones whose names are written in the book of life will be raised on judgment day. Since they didn't have the chance to know Christ on earth, they were given the Holy Spirit from God alone. In this since, they have been saved by Grace and will know Christ when they see Him. I believe it is the Holy Spirit that saves because Christ died for all of us but the Holy Spirit inside of us is what heaven is. Even though Isaiah and the other prophets in the Old testament lived before Christ, the Holy Spirit in them is what led them to prophecy. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to the world until after Christ's death but God did give it to whom He chose before Christ lived. The ones to whom He gave it after christ lived, instantly recognize Christ as the son of God. I believe one can be saved in the womb and those are the people who, when they hear christ's words, instantly believe it.

[suzie]

Then Heidi and Left, you saying that God has already chosen those who will be saved. There is nothing we can do for we are born to be saved or to go to hell. God has appointed and anointed, and the rest are just putting in time.

[Left Coast]

Then Heidi and Left, you saying that God has already chosen those who will be saved. There is nothing we can do for we are born to be saved or to go to hell. God has appointed and anointed, and the rest are just putting in time.

suzi
That is very close to the truth.

Psalms 65:4  Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Yes God has already decided who he is going to save. But no one is predestined to hell. That is the direction for every one of us. I view it somewhat like this:
We are drowning in the ocean we are all going to die, God pulls some out of the ocean, they are saved. Those that drown cannot claim he was unfair.
On the other hand if he told some that he would save everyone that clapped their hands together three times the ones he did not tell could claim it was unfair they would have clapped if they had know.
I realize that is not a very good example but I hope it is sufficiant.
Only a fool would decide since God will only save those he has chosen they will do nothing to gain salvation.
I remember thinking I was going to do everything in my power to get myself saved. I wanted to show God I was serious. I remember telling God I would be happy if I was the lowest in His kingdom but please don't let me be without you.
It begins with repentence. That is why John the Baptist came before Jesus. And Jesus' first sermon was on repentence.

Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I wanted to know what the bible had to say and I began to read beginning each time with a prayer.
God I'm not sure who you are but I believe the truth is found here in the bible please show me the truth. Even if I am never saved please let me know the truth.
I didn't even know if Jesus was true or a fake.
Most of all we can only cry out to God to have mercy. It won't guarantee salvation, but who knows perhaps God will be merciful.
But when we want to be saved on our conditions it is very possible God will reject you.  

[Heidi]

Suzie, Jesus says in John, 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit-fruit that will last." BUT you can be consoled by the fact that if He has planted the desire in you, you have been chosen because whoever seeks, will find. That is a fact. The ones who haven't been chosen could care less whether they find. It wouldn't bother them at all not to find God.

[suzie]

God chose us. Humankind. He chose to bring a Savior so that all could find salvation. He calls to everyone. The Savior is available for everyone. Anyone who believes and accepts his offer will be saved. It isnt just for a limited few. It is available to all. Not all will respond. We all are born to sin. It is our nature. None of us desires what is right. We desire what would benefit ourselves. It is only when we come to the realization that we on our own power can do nothing, is when we can desire a better way. Some seek out other things, but those who turn to God, and are truly seeking Him, He will reveal Himself.

[Heidi]

None of us knows who will be chosen. Anyone in the world can be chosen. But it is the Holy Spirit that makes us believe and the Holy Spirit comes from God. Jesus said, "Few will enter..." Once a person receives the Holy Spirit it is almost impossible for him to reject the holy Spirit which is why it is the only unforgivable sin. When I'm studying a new language and don't have an interpreter, i can't understand it. But once an interpreter interprets is for me, it is almos impossible NOT to understand the language. The people who don't enter haven't rejected the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit reveals to him who Christ is. The people who don't enter, do not have the holy Spirit in them to understand that Christ is th messiah. That is why it is God who chooses, not us. I don't make the decisions of the Universe. But if He has planted the desire in me for Him, I have been chosen because he who seeks will find. But it is not of my own superior intelligence that i come to Him. It is the from the Holy Spirit.

[Pilgrim]

Eph 1:13  "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

Pilgrim

[Royo]

I am sorry to say it this way, but I am amazed sometimes at how people can so misunderstand such a basic truth.
First: those who lived before Christ did not have the Holy Spirit living IN them, they had The Holy Spirit COME UPON THEM, and were thus anointed for service. Just as Jesus foretold would happen to the desciples in Acts. "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you..."
[Acts 1.8]. Notice it says the Holy Spirit will come UPON you.
These are born again desciples He is speaking to. (we see when they were born again in John 20.22, "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "receive the Holy Spirit"].
All those who lived before Christ, who put their faith in the promised Messiah who would come, were taken to a place called "Abraham's Bosom", or "paradise". This is why Peter tells us that Jesus went and preached the good news to the dead. Even though their faith placed them in Abraham's Bosom instead of hell, (see Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16.19-31), they still had to make their own decision to be saved, which is why Jesus went to "preach" to them.
If anyone could be saved before Jesus died upon the cross, then Why did the Word have to take on flesh, become the man Jesus, suffer shame, and die a horrible death to provide salvation?
Love in Christ, Roy.

[Left Coast]

Pilgrim
I forgot to answer your reply #28
How right you are Paul would indeed be shocked.
When we view how quickly churches fall away from their foundation. Think about the Episcopalian church with a gay bishop.
The Southern Baptist Church was originally Calvinist in philosophy. Now they have gone the complete opposite direction and have become Arminian.
This is so true almost every church today has gone to a gospel in which it is required of us to do something to get ourselves saved. Some require the Lords supper, some baptism, some you must confess in front of the church, some you have to give money, but the most popular works gospel puts salvation on your act of believing.

Someone apparently came to the Galatians after they received the true gospel, and began to teach them that besides believing, they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law in order to be saved, thus perverting the true gospel. Today we have many different so-called “Christian” denominations that in one way or another do the same.

Did you notice that in addition to speaking about circumcision in chapter two he made it very clear that it was entirely God that saved him.

Galatians 1:11  But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12  For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:15  But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,

Revelation:
An uncovering, a bringing to light of that which had been previously wholly hidden or only obscurely seen. From Easton’s bible dictionary.

When God saves us the result is we believe, but believing is not what gets us saved.
Consider the paralyzed man in Mark. His friends lower him down through the roof so Jesus can heal his body but Jesus forgave his sins.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

They didn’t know Jesus could forgive sins, they had complete faith that Jesus could heal his body. Yet he was given salvation. Not because He believed Jesus was the savior, not by confession of the lips not by baptism in water but solely by the gift from Jesus.
It is a gift that took no effort by him to receive.
Every Christmas I receive such a gift. My employer drives down to the bank (our system of direct deposit) and puts money in my account for my bonus.  

[Left Coast]

Roy there are many people here who believe things differently than you do. Many of us are good students of the bible.
I understand what you are saying but you are wrong.
There was a time for me when pride got in the way of truth. I was so certain I was right I didn’t consider I could be wrong.
Now I approach the bible with a much more humble attitude.
I want to learn, but for me to learn I need good solid scriptural support. You didn’t give any.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It didn’t happen. It is a picture of the remorse and sorrow of someone who is unsaved.
He can see but he is dead, the dead don’t see. Water represents the gospel now that he is lost he wishes he could have it.
When we die the unsaved go to a place of silence.

Psalms 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
 
The saved go to be with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Abraham's Bosom is a synonym for heaven, it is only used in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Paradise is also heaven the word only appears on three places:

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Corinthians 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Revelation 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

This is why Peter tells us that Jesus went and preached the good news to the dead.

Where do you find this in the bible?

If anyone could be saved before Jesus died upon the cross, then Why did the Word have to take on flesh, become the man Jesus, suffer shame, and die a horrible death to provide salvation?

It is true Jesus had to finish the process. But because he was God he would. This does not diminish the fact that those before the cross also were saved.
Salvation is by Grace.
Jesus paid for my sins before He died on the cross.
The payment that is required is to spend an eternity in Hell for each sin. The payment only needs to be made once. That is why Jesus could not have paid for the sins of every single person on earth. If Jesus paid the penalty then it wouldn’t be paid again. Even Hindus, Muslims, Satanists, or atheists would never have to go to hell because Jesus can’t give the suffering back.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Lets count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thur. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night? In the garden of Gethsemane. That is when He began suffering, we see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

On the cross before He died He cried out it is finished.

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He still had to overcome death but He was finished paying for the sins of those He came to save.

Acts 1.8 has nothing to do with the old testament saints. I don’t know how you came up with such an idea.
I am going to ask this question again:
Why would an unborn child leap for joy at the salutation of Mary?
If we have to make a decision to become saved, how does a baby become saved? Does a baby make that decision?
Is a baby saved, then they lose their salvation, then they believe and get their salvation back? If we can lose our salvation do we have to believe over and over again?
I don’t understand your doctrines even though once upon a time I believed salvation was dependent on my freewill choice to accept Jesus.

[Saved_4ever]

I don't feel that just because JTB leap for joy he was saved.  That's a lot of speculation there.  I do believe that even in the womb that JTB knew he was in the other womb and this would make him "leap for joy".  It is also foolish to believe that no one was saved before Jesus came.  Since Adam and Eve they knew that a savior was coming and everything before hand was a picture of Christ.  It was a faith in this coming savior that saves them.  Considering the only thing that will send someone to hell is not believing in Jesus it seems sort of odd to send centuries of people to hell for something they couldn't even believe.

I do have some questions for people though.  

Is something a gift if you don't accept it?  I mean, if I give you something and you leave it on the door step, is it a gift to you just because of my intentions?  Does it really require a whole lot to say thank you and accept a gift?  Would that really make you have a part in aquiring something that someone else freely gave you?

[Left Coast]

S4e

I don't feel that just because JTB leap for joy he was saved. That's a lot of speculation there. I do believe that even in the womb that JTB knew he was in the other womb and this would make him "leap for joy"

.
So John, as an unborn child, heard that Jesus was in the other womb. He new who Jesus was and that made him so happy he leapt. But he wasn’t saved. An unborn child has the ability to do this?
If it is not all Gods work how do babies become saved?
Believing is the result of salvation not the cause. Believing isn’t just having an intellectual understanding of Jesus, it means we have total and complete faith in Him and in His work of salvation.
Salvation happens when God gives us a new heart.
We are commanded to believe.

1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

We will only keep Gods commandments if He has given us a heart that can keep his commandments.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

He makes it clear that this is the way of salvation in Hebrews:

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Can you see that believing on our part is a result of our keeping Gods commandment because He has changed us?

Considering the only thing that will send someone to hell is not believing in Jesus it seems sort of odd to send centuries of people to hell for something they couldn't even believe.

You made a very good point but lets expand it a little.
Believing is not available to those that have never heard of Jesus. Many people through out the centuries have never heard of Jesus. How about someone in Tahiti in the year 300.
Would it be fair for God to put our salvation in our hands and then not tell everyone how to do it?
Concerning your questions.
The gift God gives cannot be refused.
I’m going to make up a story.
Two twin brothers Mark and Bob are best friends.
Bob has a massive heart attack and is on life support. He is totally unconscious.
Mark in his hurry to get to his brother causes an accident, Mark dies. But before he does he requests that they give his brother his heart.
Bob comes back to consciousness with Marks heart.
Can Bob refuse this gift?
(Any resemblance to anyone living or dead is purely coincidental.)
This is the gift that God gives us we don’t have a choice in the matter.

[Saved_4ever]

Then your answer is that gift does not need to be accepted I take it.  That was one of the questions.

I'm not so sure about your example there but I will think about.  I think for one thing, that Bob was wanting a new heart and would gladly recieve it.

I have turned down a "gift" before.

[Royo]

To Left Coast:
You asked where I got the scripture where Peter says Jesus went and preached to the dead. See 1 Peter 3.18,19.

To Saved_4ever.
I did not say that all those who lived before Christ did not get saved. (re-read that post). I said that all the saints before Jesus, went to paradise, (or "abraham's bosom"), and that Jesus went and preached the gospel to them during the 3 days He was "in the grave". That is why He told the one thief on the cross, "you will be with me this day in paradise." And then those saints were saved after receiving the gospel that Jesus had just preached to them.
You also say it seems odd to send centuries of people to hell for something they couldn't even believe.
They did have something to believe: the one day coming of the Messiah had been foretold by God's prophets, and it is all those who put their faith in that truth from God that put them in Abraham's bosom to await the coming of the Messiah, who  came to them in Abraham's bosom during those 3 days to preach the gospel to them, and they were saved. Including the thief on the cross.

Again to Left Coast:
I understand that there are others that believe different than me. And you seem to say that pride is making me think I am right and others wrong. I don't think that way.
If I make a bold statement that Jesus is the Son of God, and say it with authority, is that Pride? So why is it pride when I make other statements with authority? What I believe, I believe with all my heart, and speak it that way. If others have a different way of thinking about something, that is fine.
I am not out to convince them, I am only sharing what I believe to be the truth. And just as Paul or any other child of God spoke boldly the truth, so do I. Not everyone believed Paul either, but he continued to speak the truth boldly. I do not claim to know everything there is to know, but what I do know to be the truth, I will speak boldly, and with authority.
That is what this forum is about; sharing with each other. Not all will agree with me, nor I always with them. That is O.K.
So expect in the future, that weather the topic is weather Jesus is God, or some other truth, I will always speak my mind boldly. That is how men of God have spoke throughout history,
and it is how I speak. In topics where I wasn't sure, I have said so, or said nothing.
And now I am off to bed.
Love to all in Christ. Roy.