Born again Christians vs. "Christians"

[Heidi]

Amen, Royo. The reason i think i experienced it in the way that i did was that I was not raised in the church but instead in an atheistic household. The people I have talked to who heard the word when they were youger had different experiences than I did. But i always love to hear other perspectives. But like you were saying, the important thing is to have God's love in our hearts.  

[suzie]

There isnt a time when the Holy Spirit becomes "activated", but dwells in us from the time we are saved. We then begin a lifelong process of transformation from the inside out.

[Heidi]

That's fascinating to me, Suzie, because my experience was so blatant. I guess it's easy for me to know when i was saved because it was like night and day. It's hard for me to identify with others whose experience was more gradual but I'd like to hear about those experiences.

[Left Coast]

Pilgrim said:

A pastor’s wife told a friend of mine that she became a child of God while in her mother’s womb (again, when she did not even know the Gospel nor was capable of believing in the heart and confessing with the mouth).

If it is required to believe in the heart and confess with the lips how could a baby ever become saved. As you point out she had no ability to know the gospel through intellect, she wasn’t able to believe in her heart (why not?), nor was she capable of confessing with her mouth.
This is an important question I’m going to repeat it.
How can a baby be saved if they must believe in the heart and confess with the mouth?
But the bible tells us John the Baptist was saved while he was still in the womb:

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:42  And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

John leapt for joy while still in the womb. How could an unborn child do that?
Samson was a Nazarite to God from the womb until death, two others were Nazarites their entire life, Samuel and John the Baptist:

Judges 13:7  But he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, neither eat any unclean thing: for the child shall be a Nazarite to God from the womb to the day of his death.

Being born again is a spiritual birth that takes place in a person when, having heard the Gospel, he repents and believes, and in faith calls on the name of the Lord to be saved (Rom. 10:9-13).

The Lord chose the term “Born” for a very good reason. The first time you were born, what did you contribute? Did you get your parents together?
You can contribute just as much to your second birth as you did the first, nothing.
Believing is a work, not our work, Gods work. Jesus made this very clear:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

When we isolate verses of scripture we can come up with all sorts of gospels. If you isolate verses you can even support reincarnation. That is why it is so important to check doctrine against scripture.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This has a companion verse:

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

It is entirely Gods work.
I am bothered by this because this idea that you must do something to get yourself saved is not the gospel I find in the bible.
That would be a salvation plan that would be unfair. All sorts of people could legitimately claim they never had a chance to believe and confess. Since they had never heard of Jesus. You even pointed this out when you said, “having heard the Gospel”.
The bible makes it very clear that you can’t believe unless you hear:

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Believing, faith, confessing, these are all results of salvation not the cause.
The cause is because God changes us. We become an entirely different creature. Man has a heart that is totally depraved. So God gives us a new heart:

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Notice it is God that does the work. This is what it means to be born again.

[Heidi]

Left Coast, you just brought up a fascinating point that I have always wondered about. I received the holy Spirit when i was pregnant with my son. Ever since i can remember, my son, from when he could barely talk, has always loved Jesus. At that point we didn't talk about Jesus in our home too much because i didn't want to shove it down his throat. But I have sensed the Holy Spirit in that kid from day one. He goes to a Christian school and teachers are amazed at his innate understanding of scripture. I know that something entered me when i received the Holy Spirit because i felt it. I've always sensed that my son received it too.

[Left Coast]

I believe it is possible.
I wish I had that kind of comfort with my children, well they're not really children anymore.
 

[suzie]

I do not believe that the Spirit needs to be "activated."  God works in us only as much as we allow Him to.  He can work through us despite us, but He works as much as we allow Him to.  Heidi, salvation occurs the moment we truly give our hearts to the Lord, but it continues throughout our life. It is called sanctification. As we give more and more of ourselves to Him, and know Him more and more intimately, He can and does do give us greater wisdom, power and insight to Him. We have to do some "work" as well. We need to get into the Word and have a daily walk with the Lord, deepen our prayer, become part of the body of Christ to be discipled, mentored, encouraged, and serve Him as He directs.  

[suzie]

PS I forgot to add about salvation.....The Bible gives no indication that John the Baptist was saved while in the womb. If infants are saved, especially in the womb, then there really isnt a need for a savior is there?

[Heidi]

If you read the gospel of John, Suzie, you'll read that the Holy Spirit IS what makes us believe. We cannot "muster up" faith if we don't have it. It's much like trying to understand another langueage without an interpreter. Jesus says, "I can do nothing without my Father". He doesn't give credit to Himself for what He knows or can do. He gives it to God. What do you think it is that's making us go His way? Certainly not the devil, and certainly not my intelligent self. We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. Scrutinize the gospel of John. It's all in there.

[suzie]

God seeks out all to become His children. We have free will to choose to accept His invitation or not. God foreknows who will answer, but it is our decision.

When we make that decision and turn our lives over to Christ we then die to self and live for Christ. It is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us. He lives in us through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit seals us to eternity. We then begin a process of sanctification, becoming more and more Christlike as we grow in Him.  
We are saved by grace through faith. Faith is believing and trusting in Jesus Christ. When we reach out in faith to accept the gift of salvation it is all we have to do.

[Heidi]

But faith itself is a gift. It doesn't come from our own superior intelligence. It comes from the holy Spirit. As for "free" will, we all respond to whatever rules us at the time. Our "decisions" come from our least stressful option. i don't believe it's free. If a woman is a battered wife, for example, she may want to leave. But until her fear of her husband is greater than her fear of leaving, she will stay.  It isn't a free will choice. We are slaves to whatever masters us. I'd like to be perfect but i can't be. I can only come from my own maturity level.

I believe that what the bible means by free will is that God provided the devil's way and His way. He had to do this so that we would get to the point where would understood why we need Him. If He hadn't provided a devil to tempt us, then we would be perfect and hence, wouldn't need to choose Him. Nevertheless, we are accountable. What comes out of me comes back to me, much like a river returning to its source. That can't be changed.

[suzie]

I am really not sure what point you are attempting to make here. Jesus saves us. Nothing we can do can earn that. All we must do is accept and believe. We are not saved before we do that. God makes the gift of salvation available to all, however, we have the ability to accept or reject this offer. If we accept by faith through God's grace we are saved.

[Pilgrim]

In the Image of Christ
Colossians 3:8-11

“Another Gospel?”

    “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [ man ] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.”        Galatians 1:6-9

        If the apostle Paul marveled at what he witnessed in the Galatian church two thousand years ago, what do you think his response would be if he examined the professing church today? Paul was amazed that the Galatians fell for a counterfeit gospel so quickly after receiving the true gospel. In fact, he openly doubted that they were truly saved because of the false gospel they now embraced (Gal. 4:11, 20). This tragic situation was so severe that the apostle Paul pronounced a curse on anyone teaching a false gospel, whether man or an angel from heaven.
        Someone apparently came to the Galatians after they received the true gospel, and began to teach them that besides believing, they also needed to be circumcised and keep the Mosaic law in order to be saved, thus perverting the true gospel. Today we have many different so-called “Christian” denominations that in one way or another do the same.
        One example of such teaching is the Belgic Confession, Article 34 on baptism. According to the Psalter Hymnal used by the Christian Reformed Church, the Belgic Confession is its oldest doctrinal standard. The Psalter Hymnal also states:

        “The text, not the contents, was revised again at the Synod of Dort in 1618-19 and adopted as one of the doctrinal standards to which all officebearers in the Reformed churches were required to subscribe. The confession stands as one of the best symbolical statements of Reformed doctrine. The translation presented here is based on the French  text of 1619 and was adopted by the Synod of 1985 of the Christian
Reformed Church” (underlining added).

        The error in this document is quite similar to the error in which the Galatians found themselves. Near the very beginning of the document we read these words, “Having abolished circumcision which was done with blood, he established in its place the sacrament of baptism.” Yet no where is this taught in the Holy Scriptures. The proof text used to support their position is Colossians 2:11-12, which states:

    “In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

        However, please notice that these verses do not say that baptism replaced circumcision. In fact, the circumcision mentioned in these verses is not even physical circumcision, but rather spiritual circumcision. It is a circumcision made without hands, by the faith of the operation of God. Therefore, to say that physical baptism replaced physical circumcision based upon these verses, is to make a very poor and incorrect interpretation that twists the clear meaning of the text. The circumcision mentioned in these verses is what takes place today in the hearts of those who are saved by placing their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.
        Article 34 of the Belgic Confession goes on to proclaim,  “By it we are received into God’s Church and set apart from all other people and alien religions, that we may be dedicated entirely to him, bearing his mark and sign. It also witnesses to us that he will be our God forever, since he is our gracious Father.” (underlining added).  Again, no where in the Scriptures does it teach that being baptized places a person in the church. The church is not a building made up of brick and mortar, wood and nails, nor is it a denomination that we have joined. The church is the body of Christ. It is made up of individuals who have placed their trust in the Lord Jesus for the salvation of their souls. We gain entry into God’s church and become God’s children by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, not by being baptized as this man-made document and doctrine claims (Jn. 1:11-13, 1 Pet. 2:4-10, Eph. 1:15-3:21).  
        The same Article 34 teaches baptismal regeneration (salvation by baptism), for it claims that a person is received into the church of God and that God becomes our Father through baptism. Article 34 continues in its teaching of baptismal regeneration as follows: (underlining added)

    “In this way he signifies to us that just as water washes away the dirt of the body when it is poured on us and also is seen on the body of the baptized when it is sprinkled on him, so too the blood of Christ does the same thing internally, in the soul, by the Holy Spirit.
    It washes and cleanses it from its sins and transforms us from being the children of wrath into the children of God.  This does not happen by the physical water but by the sprinkling of the precious blood of the Son of God, who is our Red Sea, through which we must pass to escape the tyranny of Pharoah, who is the devil, and to enter the spiritual land of Canaan.
    So ministers, as far as their work is concerned, give us the sacrament and what is visible, but our Lord gives what the sacrament signifies - namely the invisible gifts and graces; washing, purifying, and cleansing our souls of all filth and unrighteousness; renewing our hearts and filling them with all comfort; giving us true assurance of his fatherly goodness; clothing us with the “new man” and stripping off the “old” with all its works.
    For this reason we believe that anyone who aspires to reach eternal life ought to be baptized only once without ever repeating it - for we cannot be born twice. Yet this baptism is profitable not only when the water is on us and when we receive it but throughout our entire lives.”

        This man-made doctrine claims that as a person (many of which are infants) is sprinkled with water at his baptism, so the Holy Spirit does the same thing to his soul with the blood of Christ, and that he is cleansed from his sin and transformed from a child of wrath into a child of God. Honestly friends, you would be hard pressed to come up with a more clear teaching of baptismal regeneration than Article 34 of the Belgic Confession. If the Apostle Paul announced such a severe curse on those that taught that salvation was through circumcision and law keeping, what do you think he would say to those that teach Article 34 of the Belgic Confession as holy doctrine? After all, this document makes almost the identical claim as that of the false teachers in the Galatian church. Article 34 of the Belgic Confession teaches that baptism replaces circumcision and that by it a person becomes a child of God . We can be sure that the Apostle Paul would have cursed anyone teaching this false gospel as well. He was very zealous for the true gospel, the “apostolic” gospel. Let us remember that the Apostle Paul was the one who wrote these words in the book of Romans:

    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also the Greek”.  Romans 1:16

        The true gospel has the power to save every soul that believes it, and a false gospel has the power to doom every soul that believes it.  Dear friend, I have not written to offend or incite argument, but out of concern for your soul. Let me ask you, what gospel do you believe? Only the true gospel will save you from the wrath of God.

Visit our web site for more articles and information at  http://nlbchapel.org

pilgrim

[Heidi]

Thank you so much for that text, Pilgrim. This has been my battle with the Lutheran Church. Their baptismal doctrine infuriates me and what's more, they don't care. This just re-enforces the validity of Christ's words about few being saved, and false teachers of the law. I have had lengthy conversations with Lutheran pastors, and I am convinced they do not have the Holy Spirit in them. If that is the case, their eyes have been blinded. Sometimes I feel like Jesus did at the temple with the money changers. (I know i can't truly identify with Jesus, but His anger was at people using the temple for self-serving purposes).  I alternate between fury which makes me want to witness to them and resignation that this what's meant to be. I know where you're coming from, Pilgrim.

[Royo]

I was not going to reply in this thread again, but now I have to.
Left coast: you stated; "John the Baptist was saved while he was still in the womb."
This is impossible. First off, the scriptures nowhere say this. It is you who have said this, not God.
Secondly: it was not possible for ANYONE to be saved until Jesus died upon the cross for our sins. So John could not have been saved yet.
Lastly: there is much more I could say, but Suzie has already said it as well or better than I could have.
Love to you all in Christ.  Roy.