hate

[nChrist]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,

I'm just thinking out loud in a very general way. In this age of Grace, I think we are to hate the sin but love the sinner. After all, that is what JESUS did for us. HE loved us enough to die for us while we were still dead in our sins.

It obviously gets more complicated when we think about the devil using people to disrupt, stop, or destroy the work of GOD.

BUT, very generally I think this issue can boil down to hate the sin and love the sinner. What does everyone else think about this?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 4:7-8 NASB  "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.  "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

2 Peter 3:9 NASB  The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Colossians 2:2 NASB  that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom,

If we hate the sinner how can we honestly try to witness to them and try to bring them to Christ when our hearts hardened toward them? For that is what happens when a person hates, their hearts are hardened toward that which they hate. This is what happened to Pharoah when Moses was dealing with him. His heart was hardened toward God. He hated God.

Whe we hate sin our hearts becaome hardened toward that sin and we do not want anything to do with it the sin any longer.

We need to have compassion (love) toward those that are mired in sin so that we can attempt to help them and bring them to our Lord and Saviour. By having this compassion for them we are also showing them what true love is.

[cris]

I thought this was a debate on whether or not we are to hate an evil person.  The bible says there are evil people, so there must be.  That surely isn't being taken out of context.

Forget about talking about loving our enemies.  We all KNOW that Jesus said to love our enemies.

The subject is on hating evil people.  Our actions reveal what is in our heart, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.  Good men bring forth good things; evil men bring forth evil things.

Because of our fallen nature, we have a tremendous potential for evil.............all of us, but salvation is the result of us believing with our heart.  Being saved, we must be quick to confess any sin we've committed.  We must forgive others as Jesus forgave. This is a continual thing we MUST do. He loved us, and gave His life for us.  Isn't this in keeping with repentance?  Are we not bearing GOOD fruit?  How can we do this?  We can only do it by seeking God with our whole heart, continually.

The bible says that not all will be saved.  Evil people are not seeking God, but rather themselves.  Apparently, they aren't children of God, nor are they our brothers and sisters, NOR ARE THEY NECESSARILY THE ENEMIES WE ARE TOLD TO LOVE.  They are just plain, rotten to the core, evil people.  They exist!  Let's discuss their existence and discuss HOW we should hate them.  God hates them.  How can we, being children of God, not hate them also?  If God hates, then we hate.  If God loves, then we love.....................we're supposed to be Godly.  How can we be Godly if we don't hate the evil person as He hates them.

I like to get right into the meat of an issue.  The issue is HATE.  It isn't about loving our enemies.  WE ALL KNOW WE ARE COMMANDED TO LOVE OUR ENEMIES.

Also, we aren't talking about hardening our own heart with the wrong kind of hatred in reference to witnessing to sinners.  We are to bring them into the Kingdom of God.  That's what Jesus told us to do.  We aren't talking about hardening our own hearts with hatred which prevents us from loving, and ministering to others outside the Kingdom of God.  We're talking about hating those whom God hates. There are those who flatly refuse God.  No amount of ministering will save them, because they don't want to be saved.  Their interest is self interest, and self interest only.  Face it, there are these kinds of people walking on the earth.  They're evil, and do the bidding of their father, the father of all lies, Satan.  It's a choice they made.  It's a choice they made by refusing the saving grace that Jesus Christ offered us all.







 
   

[Soldier4Christ]

Cris,

What is the difference between enemies and those that you say we should hate? If a person is evil and refuses the Lord because of that evil is not that person an enemy of ours also? We see in Mat 5:44 where Jesus tells us to love our enemies then in verse 44 He even goes on to talk about them being evil. This is not to say that we are to be friends with them as it is possible to have a love for a person that we do not even know. There is a difference also between being friendly and being friends. If we are good to those that are evil and continue to be evil then we are actually "heaping coals on their head".





Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Pro 25:21  If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 25:22  For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

[cris]

Cris,

What is the difference between enemies and those that you say we should hate? If a person is evil and refuses the Lord because of that evil is not that person an enemy of ours also? We see in Mat 5:44 where Jesus tells us to love our enemies then in verse 44 He even goes on to talk about them being evil. This is not to say that we are to be friends with them as it is possible to have a love for a person that we do not even know. There is a difference also between being friendly and being friends. If we are good to those that are evil and continue to be evil then we are actually "heaping coals on their head".





Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?


Pro 25:21  If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 25:22  For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Should we hate what God hates?


Just in case something happens, this computer started running real slow with my last post.  It's been doing okay, until 10 minutes ago.

[Soldier4Christ]

I would have to say no, not in all cases as we are told that God hates the unrepentant sinner (all workers of iniquity) yet Jesus tells us to not hate our enemies. And who exactly are our enemies?

[cris]

I would have to say no, not in all cases as we are told that God hates the unrepentant sinner (all workers of iniquity) yet Jesus tells us to not hate our enemies. And who exactly are our enemies?

I'm glad you said "not in all cases".  We have something "missing" here, and that's what I'm getting at.

You said God hates the unrepentant sinner, yet Jesus tells us not to hate our enemies.  Apparently, from that deduction, the unrepentant sinner is not our enemy.  If that isn't true, then God is contradicting Himself, and God DOES NOT contradict Himself (Jesus and God being One).

 

[Soldier4Christ]

It is a good point and one worth studying because Satan is also our enemy. Are we to love Satan?

I must admit I never been asked about it before and have never thought of this before to this depth.

I will have to get back on this one.

 

[cris]

It is a good point and one worth studying because Satan is also our enemy. Are we to love Satan?

I must admit I never been asked about it before and have never thought of this before to this depth.

I will have to get back on this one.

 

PR,

I agree and it's what I call "study".  Jesus said to seek and knock and keep knocking.  He WILL answer.  I believe that.  I like to go into depth in studying the Word of God.  To me, what's the point in doing otherwise?  What do we REALLY learn by superficial studying?  He knows our heart, and He knows when He can reveal what we ask. I've said many times that we serve an awesome God, and I meant it.

Are we to love Satan, you ask?  My answer is, does God love Satan?  Do we know for sure He hates Satan?  If the answer is affirmative, then we must hate Satan and his cohorts, as does God. Correct?  Yes, Satan is our enemy, and in this case, I don't think we are to love Satan.  There are some missing pieces here in reference to hating and loving.  I hope we can get the answer that God wants us to know, through discussion.

I think this "hate" issue could be a very interesting debate.  Having the correct heart condition, we all may learn something. I really hope more people express their opinion.  People argue in debates; it's the nature of debating, but when it's over, they're still supposed to be friends, and hopefully, have learned something.  We need BEP's head, Bronze's head, (I know he probably isn't feeling up to it, though), air's head (hehe), 2T's head, JN's head, DW's head, (I hope he's doing well), and everyone else here that I haven't mentioned.

[nChrist]

Cris Said:

I think this "hate" issue could be a very interesting debate.  Having the correct heart condition, we all may learn something. I really hope more people express their opinion.  People argue in debates; it's the nature of debating, but when it's over, they're still supposed to be friends, and hopefully, have learned something.  We need BEP's head, Bronze's head, (I know he probably isn't feeling up to it, though), air's head (hehe), 2T's head, JN's head, DW's head, (I hope he's doing well), and everyone else here that I haven't mentioned.

Hello Brother/Sister Cris,

 I think that I have an answer that will make sense.

First, there is a difference between rebuke and hate.

We were all children of the darkness and evil sinners at one time. Even then, God loved us. JESUS died on the Cross for evil sinnners, even the most evil sinners.

Do any of us have any children that have NEVER done anything evil or sin? NO  Our love for them at the time was probably pretty harsh, involved a rebuke, and maybe even a spanking - BUT we still loved them. We were evil sinners before we accepted JESUS. AND, we still stumble and sin from time to time.

One must look VERY carefully at the wording of some Scriptures in the Bible and even maybe read the Chapter before and the Chapter after, or more, to understand some portions. AND, one must go to the ancient languages to really understand some portions of Scripture.

In many places, the Bible does tell us in so many words to hate sin but love the sinner. The Bible also instructs us not to be unequally yoked with the lost in marriage, etc. BUT, we are to love them and witness to them. You must remember that love is sometimes tough love and involves rebuke, much like you must do to raise your children. Does this make any sense?

There might even be a time when we are right or wrong in thinking we are in the presence of the devil or an agent of the devil. This would be very unusual, but many Christians have felt this, including me. I know that my GOD is mightier than the devil. The only thing I would know to do and have done is command in the Name of JESUS, pray, and do what I felt led to do. Before someone thinks that I'm out of my mind, I did deal with many satan worshiper types in 25 years of police work, and some of them had already done horrible things. So, I'm completely sane. hehehehehe  

Love In Christ,
Tom

Psalms 119:90 NASB  Your faithfulness continues throughout all generations; You established the earth, and it stands.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom, I'm glad that you came along on this. I was at a loss for words but I do believe that you have it pegged down.

One thing that I have thought of here is that there are different kinds/levels of love and there are different kinds/levels of hate.

We are to love our parents, to love our wife, to love our children, to love our brothers, to love our neighbors, to love our enemies. Yet in one verse we are told to hate our parents. As Cris said there are no contradictions in the Bible because God does contradict himself. In the case of the love your parents and hate your parents I believe what He is telling us is that we are not to love our parents as much as we love Him.

The Strongs Concordance defines the Hebrew word originally used where the word hate is in the OT as enemy, foe, odious, (odious means something that is repulsive).

In the NT strongs defines the original Greek word for hate as   to detest (especially to persecute), or to love less.

I see from this that there are then different kinds or levels of hate.

 Merriam-Webster says:

1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy :

I think that most people have a some what different idea as to the meaning of hate. I believe that most of us think of it in the extreme sense of the word. A feeling that consumes us in a cancerous like way.

[nChrist]

Hello Pastor Roger,

Brother, this is one of those Scriptures that appears to be a contradiction, but it isn't.

Luke 14:26 KJV  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:26 AMP  If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters--[yes] and even his own life also--he cannot be My disciple.

This would be known as a contrast and comparison, and some would call it an exaggerated contrast and comparison used to make a heavy distinction. The Strong's Number for "hate" in this Scripture is "G3404". I don't remember the font on the forum that accepts Greek, so I'll have to summarize this with just the English:

G3404 - hate  (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)
From a primary word (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

In this case, it would be "by extension to love less", but this isn't easy to understand without some digging or an Amplified Bible.

See References:

Matthew 15:4  For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 6:24  No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Matthew 10:37  He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

John 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Brother, this is a prime example of why some people say that the Holy Bible contradicts itself. One would either have to know that the simple meaning could not be, dig and study for the answer, have an amplified Bible, or have a really good study Bible to understand this portion of Scripture. It's really pretty easy to see why portions of Scripture like this cause a lot of confusion. The only thing I could suggest is for someone to stop, say "can this be?", and start digging for the answers.

Love In Christ,
Tom

John 17:21-23 NASB  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom, that was the point that I was trying to make on the seeming contradiction. I am really tired tonight and still can't sleep so I don't doubt that I am not getting my point across clearly. Thank you for clearing it up.

[nChrist]

Amen Brother Tom, that was the point that I was trying to make on the seeming contradiction. I am really tired tonight and still can't sleep so I don't doubt that I am not getting my point across clearly. Thank you for clearing it up.

Brother Roger,

I understand completely about being real tired and not being able to sleep. I've got that t-shirt and there's not much I can do about it.

 What would you think about going over to fix the stove belonging to Cris. I'm laughing about a crazy tv show I watched several times, but I can't remember the name - "Something Tool man". I think that we could re-route some of the electric lines in the neighborhood and get enough electricity to that stove that it would glow in the dark from a block away.

Cris only wants that stove to cook, and I bet we can make it cook. We could make that thing go through an entire self-cleaning cycle in 5 seconds or less. By the time we get through, it ought to cook a grisly bear, fur and all, in less than 5 minutes. It ought to be good to go if we can just get the electricity cost for that stove down to several hundred per month.

(Small Print: I put this here for Cris and also hoped it might be so bad that it would put you to sleep).  

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6 NASB  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

[Allinall]

I must admit that I find this rather interesting.  I'd like to add a thought or two here if I might...

For one, we know that God hates both sin and the sinner:

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
   evil may not dwell with you.
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
   you hate all evildoers.
You destroy those who speak lies;
   the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Psalm 5:4-6

The LORD tests the righteous,
   but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
Let him rain coals on the wicked;
   fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
For the LORD is righteous;
he loves righteous deeds;
   the upright shall behold his face.

Psalm 11:5-7

"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

Malachi 1:2-3

There are six things that the LORD hates,
   seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
   and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
   feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies,
   and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 6:16-19

We also know that this behavior is one mimicked by David in the Psalms:

Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
   O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
   your enemies take your name in vain!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
   And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
   I count them my enemies.

Psalm 139:19-22

We can argue the here to's and why for's, but I think that this is where principle is found.  David was a man after God's own heart.  He hated those that hated God; counted them as his enemies.  Yet, I still see a principle in his wording: he loved God and hated evil.  

As believers we're commanded not to love the world, nor the things that are in the world, yet we are to love our enemies.  It's important here to note that we are commanded to love our enemies.  The world is at enmity with God, and can be our enemy.  Should be our enemy.  We are not to love the world, yet we are to love our enemies.  Is this then a paradox?

Hardly!  It's a matter of perspective I think.  We are strangers in this world.  It's not home, and we're not to make it our home.  It, it's inhabitants, and everything it has to offer we aren't to love.  But it's inhabitants are under a death warrant.  We're to love them by telling them of their sentence, and giving them the opportunity to accept God's pardon.

I honestly think that a believer who loves God with all of his heart will hate the sinner.  God says to love them.  The problem isn't with the hater.  It's with the lover.  Too many of us love this present world, don't we?  The love is in the sharing God's gracious gift in spite of our hate of who, and what they are.  It's interesting how you don't have to command a loving person to love.

But, as I am wont to do, I believe the context in which the passage about loving our enemies was written was speaking of physical enemies; people who've wronged us or hurt us.  Let's be real.  Most of the world hasn't really done anything to us!  Jesus was telling us not to respond in kind, but to love those who hurt us.  

So.  Do I hate sinners?  Personally, I'm not much of a hater.  I tend to rest in the "love your enemies" point.  But there are those that hate God that I'm not very fond of.  Hate?  No.  Dislike passionately?  Yes.  Why?  Because..."this world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through..."

Just a thought...