hate

[airIam2worship]

Amen Brother Tom, that was the point that I was trying to make on the seeming contradiction. I am really tired tonight and still can't sleep so I don't doubt that I am not getting my point across clearly. Thank you for clearing it up.

Brother Roger,

I understand completely about being real tired and not being able to sleep. I've got that t-shirt and there's not much I can do about it.

 What would you think about going over to fix the stove belonging to Cris. I'm laughing about a crazy tv show I watched several times, but I can't remember the name - "Something Tool man". I think that we could re-route some of the electric lines in the neighborhood and get enough electricity to that stove that it would glow in the dark from a block away.

Cris only wants that stove to cook, and I bet we can make it cook. We could make that thing go through an entire self-cleaning cycle in 5 seconds or less. By the time we get through, it ought to cook a grisly bear, fur and all, in less than 5 minutes. It ought to be good to go if we can just get the electricity cost for that stove down to several hundred per month.

(Small Print: I put this here for Cris and also hoped it might be so bad that it would put you to sleep).  

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6 NASB  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

BEP, you're talking about turning that oven into a cremation contraption  

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom, that was the point that I was trying to make on the seeming contradiction. I am really tired tonight and still can't sleep so I don't doubt that I am not getting my point across clearly. Thank you for clearing it up.

Brother Roger,

I understand completely about being real tired and not being able to sleep. I've got that t-shirt and there's not much I can do about it.

 What would you think about going over to fix the stove belonging to Cris. I'm laughing about a crazy tv show I watched several times, but I can't remember the name - "Something Tool man". I think that we could re-route some of the electric lines in the neighborhood and get enough electricity to that stove that it would glow in the dark from a block away.

Cris only wants that stove to cook, and I bet we can make it cook. We could make that thing go through an entire self-cleaning cycle in 5 seconds or less. By the time we get through, it ought to cook a grisly bear, fur and all, in less than 5 minutes. It ought to be good to go if we can just get the electricity cost for that stove down to several hundred per month.

(Small Print: I put this here for Cris and also hoped it might be so bad that it would put you to sleep).  

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6 NASB  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

I finally got to sleep for a few hours. My wife found the sledge hammer. (not saying that one had anything to do with the other.    )

I really liked that show. He had some really good ideas.  

Cris' chocolate chip cookies would be done in .0005 milisecs. That sounds like a good idea to me. It could double as a beacon for a "Lighthouse".

[Soldier4Christ]

Amen Brother Tom, that was the point that I was trying to make on the seeming contradiction. I am really tired tonight and still can't sleep so I don't doubt that I am not getting my point across clearly. Thank you for clearing it up.

Brother Roger,

I understand completely about being real tired and not being able to sleep. I've got that t-shirt and there's not much I can do about it.

 What would you think about going over to fix the stove belonging to Cris. I'm laughing about a crazy tv show I watched several times, but I can't remember the name - "Something Tool man". I think that we could re-route some of the electric lines in the neighborhood and get enough electricity to that stove that it would glow in the dark from a block away.

Cris only wants that stove to cook, and I bet we can make it cook. We could make that thing go through an entire self-cleaning cycle in 5 seconds or less. By the time we get through, it ought to cook a grisly bear, fur and all, in less than 5 minutes. It ought to be good to go if we can just get the electricity cost for that stove down to several hundred per month.

(Small Print: I put this here for Cris and also hoped it might be so bad that it would put you to sleep).  

Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 4:6 NASB  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

BEP, you're talking about turning that oven into a cremation contraption  

 

[Soldier4Christ]

I must admit that I find this rather interesting.  I'd like to add a thought or two here if I might...

For one, we know that God hates both sin and the sinner:

For you are not a God who delights in wickedness;
   evil may not dwell with you.
The boastful shall not stand before your eyes;
   you hate all evildoers.
You destroy those who speak lies;
   the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
Psalm 5:4-6

The LORD tests the righteous,
   but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.
Let him rain coals on the wicked;
   fire and sulfur and a scorching wind shall be the portion of their cup.
For the LORD is righteous;
he loves righteous deeds;
   the upright shall behold his face.

Psalm 11:5-7

"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have you loved us?" "Is not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert."

Malachi 1:2-3

There are six things that the LORD hates,
   seven that are an abomination to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
   and hands that shed innocent blood,
a heart that devises wicked plans,
   feet that make haste to run to evil,
a false witness who breathes out lies,
   and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 6:16-19

We also know that this behavior is one mimicked by David in the Psalms:

Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God!
   O men of blood, depart from me!
They speak against you with malicious intent;
   your enemies take your name in vain!
Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD?
   And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?
I hate them with complete hatred;
   I count them my enemies.

Psalm 139:19-22

We can argue the here to's and why for's, but I think that this is where principle is found.  David was a man after God's own heart.  He hated those that hated God; counted them as his enemies.  Yet, I still see a principle in his wording: he loved God and hated evil.  

As believers we're commanded not to love the world, nor the things that are in the world, yet we are to love our enemies.  It's important here to note that we are commanded to love our enemies.  The world is at enmity with God, and can be our enemy.  Should be our enemy.  We are not to love the world, yet we are to love our enemies.  Is this then a paradox?

Hardly!  It's a matter of perspective I think.  We are strangers in this world.  It's not home, and we're not to make it our home.  It, it's inhabitants, and everything it has to offer we aren't to love.  But it's inhabitants are under a death warrant.  We're to love them by telling them of their sentence, and giving them the opportunity to accept God's pardon.

I honestly think that a believer who loves God with all of his heart will hate the sinner.  God says to love them.  The problem isn't with the hater.  It's with the lover.  Too many of us love this present world, don't we?  The love is in the sharing God's gracious gift in spite of our hate of who, and what they are.  It's interesting how you don't have to command a loving person to love.

But, as I am wont to do, I believe the context in which the passage about loving our enemies was written was speaking of physical enemies; people who've wronged us or hurt us.  Let's be real.  Most of the world hasn't really done anything to us!  Jesus was telling us not to respond in kind, but to love those who hurt us.  

So.  Do I hate sinners?  Personally, I'm not much of a hater.  I tend to rest in the "love your enemies" point.  But there are those that hate God that I'm not very fond of.  Hate?  No.  Dislike passionately?  Yes.  Why?  Because..."this world is not my home, I'm just a passin' through..."

Just a thought...

Amen, Allinall.

Again we are back to defining the exact meaning and depth of both "hate" and "love" as it is used in these verses and just how we are to both hate our enemies and yet we are still to love them. I think that you gave a pretty good description of it.

This is why we are told that we should " love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Notice in the following verses "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself". It does not say to love our neighbor or ourselves to that same depth. This is understandable as we are to love God more than anything or anyone else. I also believe that we sould love our brothers to a greater depth and in a different manner than our enemies. Jesus showed us this kind of love for our enemies on the cross when he said "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do".

It is the same with hate. I would say that I hate Satan and the things that he does to a greater extent than I do those that refuse the Lord as Saviour. I have a compassion for these people. It tares at my heart because I know what they are doing to themselves but they do not understand what they are doing to themselves.

[cris]

OK guys, these are some good posts, with good points.

I have to take care of some things here on the homefront, so I probably won't be posting for a couple of days.  I might be able to sneak some in though.

As soon as I logged out last night AVG told me it detected another Trojan.  So, instead of going to bed, guess what I did for the next two hours?  Yep, you guessed it.  Maybe that's why I was getting all of those long wait, white pages.  Not having that problem today, so hopefully, I finally got rid of that varmit.  Fingers crossed!

 

[Allinall]

It is the same with hate. I would say that I hate Satan and the things that he does to a greater extent than I do those that refuse the Lord as Saviour. I have a compassion for these people. It tares at my heart because I know what they are doing to themselves but they do not understand what they are doing to themselves.

Amen Brother!  We talked a bit about this in our bible study Wednesday night.  I kinda puts things into perspective.  God, hates sinners, yet loves them enough to send His Son, a very real Person and God very God - hence, takes it upon Himself to die in our place for our sins.  He gives men this great gift, the opportunity to repent and accept this gift - and they chose foolishness and sin.  So, He gives them up to their own lusts (Romans 1).  Imagine the sorrow with which He do so, since we know He sent Jesus to die for the world and isn't willing that any should perish.  It's a truth: we go to Heaven because of His matchless grace.  We go to Hell because of our foolish choice.  It hurts to think that people willingly do this.  It sheds new light on what Jesus felt when He cried looking a Jerusalem...

[cris]

I think some words like, perspective, degree, level, help discern just what and who we are to hate.  However, something is still missing in our understanding and interpretation.  I don't know exactly what it is, but it's the POINT in the debate.

Here are some of my thoughts.

I'm reminded of the word, enemy, and yet somehow feel it's misplaced here. If the word "love" was what the debate was about, then yes, it plays a part there.  If we hated our enemies we wouldn't be able to minister the Word of God to them.  So, in this case, I think the word "perspective" plays a part.  David loved God and hated those who hated God, but he loved his enemies.  So, there must be those we are to hate.  It appears there are two separate groups here.  Hmmm?  We are to hate evil and evil people.  Who are these evil people?  That's the question!

I'm reminded of the commandment to honor our father and mother.  And, I'm reminded of what Jesus said when He was teaching a crowd, and someone told Him His mother and brothers and sisters wanted to speak with Him.  In Matt and Luke Jesus said, (He directed this to His disciples) "Who are my mother and brothers and sisters?"  My mother and brothers and sisters are they who hear, and do the will of My Father in heaven."  Jesus didn't leave the crowd to go see His relatives. In this instance, Jesus' honoring His mother must have had a different definition. Keep in mind, Jesus led a sinless life. (This is deep guys). He was showing us who His mother and brothers and sisters really were.  So, we are not "necessarily" to honor our biological mother and father.  If our biological mother and father serve another god, and we honor them, are we not honoring their god, also?  I would think spiritual common sense says we are.  If our biological parents serve God, and we honor them, are we not honoring God?  Yes, I think so.  Much deep thinking and discernment is needed here. If our earthly parents "will not" serve God, then how does one honor that?  One honors character, and in this case, these parents have no godly character.  (Actually, I'm thinking worst case senario.....abusive mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc.) Don't know why, but this verse just popped into my head, "If that light in you is darkness, how great that darkness.  No one can serve two masters.  Either he will hate the one and love the other or he will hold to one and despise the other."  This is in Matt 6.

I seem to think God's command to honor parents must be discerned...............just remember what Jesus said!

Again, the word "perspective" (thanks allinall) has to be used here.

This is an extremely deep study.  To come to a conclusion of what God wants us to do, relative to hating, it takes many of us with a right heart to search this out.  It's really mind boggling.  Well, it is for me anyway.  Again, I think the word "discernment" is absolutely imperative here.

[ollie]

Matthew 6: 24.  "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

 Luke 14:26.  "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

John 12:25.  "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal."

[cris]

What happened to this thread?

I seem to think HATE isn't necessarily something a person just sets out to do.  For instance, remember Proverbs 13:24, "he who spares the rod spoils the child."  God said if a father didn't discipline his child, then that father actually hated his child. I also think Eph.6:4, "Fathers, don't provoke your children to anger," fits in quite well here.  I don't think that kind of a father gives any thought at all about hating his child. In all probability, this father could be one who lavished material things on his son, calling it "love." One can take the example of a father who is active in a church.  This particular father is one well thought of by the congregation.  When his own child rebels, the congregation feels sorry for the father, not realizing the father never did care for his own son in a Godly way (he spared the rod).  This child was brought up with/in hatred even though it didn't appear so.  What kind of father do you think this son will make?  Will hatred be a part of the succeeding generations?  Yes, it will be.  Can it be changed?  Yes!  Difficult?  Very!  

The bible says (somewhere?), "whoever hated his own flesh?"  It appears some do, albeit not with a conscious deliberation to do so.

I really got a bit off track from the original question about, "are there those (people) we are to hate?"  That question still remains unanswered.  I'm wondering if it isn't too conflicting with the command to love our enemies, therefore becoming too difficult to figure out?