Revelation 4 is a key to pre-tribulation rapture

[Bronzesnake]

Hmmm. Someone isn't reading something right in revelation.
  If you say revelation is in order, you are very badly mistaken my friend.
   There is a temple being measured and 2 witnesses being sent, all in the same paragraph in chapt 11. If you take revelation literally, you will never understand it, as it is in the same jewish symbology and figuratism and most of the rest of the bible is.
    The beast of the sea are the gentile 10 scattered tribes. The beast of the earth are the 2 southern tribes (Jerusalem).
   The 7 churches represent the 7 heads. The 2 witnesses represent "Christ" as law/prophet, spiritual Moses/Elijah (not actual "bodies").
  Once you understand the sybolism presented in revelation, and what God's plan was in the OT, you will see revelation as the destruction of Jerusalem/"babylon", the old heaven and earth of that jewish age, and the new heaven and earth of the Holy Spirit reigning now in us.
   There is no other biblical way to interpret it, unless you want to force some kind of weird rapture into it, which I don't see.
    This is how I see it and how I presented to others that also see it like that. How the heck did a "rapture" thing ever get started?
     

 Here look...you are wrong...again!
 You said...

 

There is a temple being measured and 2 witnesses being sent, all in the same paragraph in chapt 11

 They are not in the same paragraph my commonly mistaken friend. In fact, they are not even in the same verse.

 Try to read and understand what is going on...

 Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.  

 In verse 11:1 John is given a reed which looked like a rod. Now I doubt you know this because as you have admitted, you haven't read any other books, but a reed in ancient times was used as a measuring stick; as a matter of fact, a full grown reed was just about a yard long, and that is in fact where the idea of using wooden yard sticks from. The rod on the other hand was an instrument of punishment. So John is being told to assess God's "rebuilt Temple" and the worshippers therein. God is in fact getting ready to judge the faithfulness of the worshipers from His Temple.


 Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.  

To understand the above verse you should read Dan 9:27

 Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.  

 In the Old Testament, "one week" is actually seven years, and this verse states that in the middle of the seven years all hell breaks out. satan enters the temple Mat 24:15   and proclaims himself to be god. So for three and a half years antichrist will try to force all inhabitants of the earth to worship him as god. Jesus referred to this in Luke 21:24...

 Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.  

The 2 witnesses represent "Christ" as law/prophet, spiritual Moses/Elijah (not actual "bodies").

 OK, so in the following verse, Christ gives power to Himself ( He already has power) as "law/prophet"?

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  

 And in this next verse when God says the two witnesses will stand before the god of the earth (satan) He is saying that "law/prophet" will stand before satan?
Ya, that makes perfect sense.

 Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.  

In this next verse God gives a stern warning about what will happen to anyone who hurts "law/prophet"?

 Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.  

 In the following verse "law/prophet" is given amazing powers...How can God give Himself powers? He already has all the power. Your interpretation just doesn't make sense. If we take the Bible literally and believe God when He tells us there will be two witnesses, then we should believe it, because then all these verses make perfect sense.

 Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.  

 This verse has satan making war against, and killing "law/prophet"

 Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.  

 Here is another twisted and warped verse where "law/prophet's" bodies lay dead in the street for three days!

 Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  

 

The beast of the sea are the gentile 10 scattered tribes. The beast of the earth are the 2 southern tribes (Jerusalem).
   The 7 churches represent the 7 heads.  

 Ya, OK, I believe your interpretation and not God's. God is just wrong when He says...

 Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 You and I know the beast is really "the gentile 10 scattered tribes" so we know God is wrong when He describes the beast as a man.

 Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 God is wrong again when He tells us what the seven heads are... we know they are "The 7 churches"
 God ( who is wrong again) doesn't even have His own web site like you do, so He must be wrong!!

 Here's what He thinks the seven heads are...

 Rev 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.  

 What a chucklehead God is huh?
No sir-ee, I won't worship a God that doesn't even have His own web site! I'm gonna worship you my friend!  

 I've wasted enough of my time on your foolishness. Good riddance!

 

[nChrist]

Oklahoma Howdy to Bronzesnake,

Brother, I think that you showed amazing patience. One year experts on the Holy Bible would have to know almost everything there is to know.  

I've been studying the Holy Bible for over 50 years, and I learn something new every time I open it. That would be numerous times per day. I think that a detail by detail study of the Holy Bible would take about 500 years, so I'm just going to do what I can.  

Love In Christ,
Tom

[Bronzesnake]

Oklahoma Howdy to Bronzesnake,

Brother, I think that you showed amazing patience. One year experts on the Holy Bible would have to know almost everything there is to know.  

I've been studying the Holy Bible for over 50 years, and I learn something new every time I open it. That would be numerous times per day. I think that a detail by detail study of the Holy Bible would take about 500 years, so I'm just going to do what I can.  

Love In Christ,
Tom

 You're absolutely right my brother! One year does not a scholar of God's make...I am also always learning something new, it's an on going process.

 Thanks Tom...
Bronzesnake.

[InHimITrust]

The 7 heads are 7 mountains and are also 7 kings(represented the 7 churches, 5 have sinned, one "is"(Philadelphia) and the wounded 1 to come(Thyatira). 1 of the heads had a mortal wound that was healed and and 8th is also of the 7. This wounded head represents revivied "babylon" and is part of both beast: rome and Jerusalem. One of the heads turns into a "whole beast", and is what Jerusalem worships.
    All of revelation concerns the 10 scattered tribes(10 horns  of the beast of the sea without a "heavenly" kingdom as yet) and redemtion of the saints, just as the NT describes. It is nothing but the sealing of the elect of the 12 tribes and their safety from the destruction of Jerusalem(beast of the "earth" with 2 horns that speaks as a "Lamb") in 70ad, which was spiritual "babylon" and Christ's enemies. They became His footstool in 70ad. They were also the devil, false prophet and beast thrown into the "lake of fire", the fire in Jerusalem, just as prophecied by God thru the prophets and Christ, taking out the synagogue of satan and bring all tribes together thru the Holy Spirit and heavenly Jerusalem.
   Sorry folks, revelation is past, so just turn your attention to saving other non believers and keeping everyone strong in faith and belief in God thru Jesus Christ.
    May the spirit of God be with you.

revel 13:1And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
REVE 17:9This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. 11As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction. 12And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. 13These are of one mind and hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."
  And now the prophecy for this:
Ezek 37:21 "And say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

[InHimITrust]

What the heck is a "pretribulation rapture". As many times as I have read thru the bible, I never heard of it except from other people and what they read on some "rapture" sites.
   I am glad I never went to them before I actually read the bible on my own thru God's spirit.
   Anyway, I hope a rapture comes true for you, but my rapture already happened last year when Christ and God came into and I was reborn again. It was the most awsome experience becoming in the family of God.
    Bless all of you.

[Bronzesnake]

What the heck is a "pretribulation rapture". As many times as I have read thru the bible, I never heard of it except from other people and what they read on some "rapture" sites.
   I am glad I never went to them before I actually read the bible on my own thru God's spirit.
   Anyway, I hope a rapture comes true for you, but my rapture already happened last year when Christ and God came into and I was reborn again. It was the most awsome experience becoming in the family of God.
    Bless all of you.

 Check around this site and you'll find all the answers to your questions about Revelation and pre-trib rapture.
 You are not experienced enough to have such firm positions my friend. Perhaps in a few years you'll have a better understanding. Until then it's probably a good idea to listen and learn rather than come across as an overnight expert.

 Bronzesnake.

[AJ]

Sorry folks, revelation is past, so just turn your attention to saving other non believers and keeping everyone strong in faith and belief in God thru Jesus Christ.
May the spirit of God be with you.

This is going to be hard to do if you take away the blessed hope...Sorry brother but you are teaching that we are already in the New Heaven and New Earth ...there is no use preaching the gospel now, its all over...and we missed the boat... But Praise God your wrong, God will MAKE a New Heaven and a New Earth werein dwells righteousness. And that is certainly not happening now...you also say Satan is cast into the lake of fire? Hmm im afraid not, Satan is alive and well in the children of darkness...my advice to you brother is to stop teaching this false doctrine.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

1- was no more sea? We still have seas brother....

3- Behold, I make all things new? Not yet brother...

2-And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

We still have all of this as well....death, sorrow, crying, pain.

Your wrong, cant you see this? If the blind lead the blind they will both fall into a ditch...dont forget that brother.


The thing we call rapture is found here...and this is the blessed hope for the believer...and it is still future. Praise God

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality?

Are you immortal yet? No your not....

Preterism is a false belief...this belief is not yours brother... its been around for a long time.

God bless

[InHimITrust]

     Thank God I read the bible first before I got into all this other doctrinal beliefs. Seriously though, if more of you would actually really read through the bible, praying to God for wisdom and knowledge of His words, thru His Holy Spirit, I really feel you will see the real truth of God's words in it, just as the followers of Christ did back in the first century. Read it like you were them, listening to Christ and reading the letters and epistles of Christ's desciples and apostles as if you were back then. Then you will see more clearly that everything was concerning that age and old heaven and earth.
      Other than that, God bless you all thru Jesus Christ, His glorious Son and our savior. Thank you God for opening my eyes to your words of Truth and giving me the spirit to discern it with your wisdom and knowlege.

[Bronzesnake]

    Thank God I read the bible first before I got into all this other doctrinal beliefs. Seriously though, if more of you would actually really read through the bible, praying to God for wisdom and knowledge of His words, thru His Holy Spirit, I really feel you will see the real truth of God's words in it, just as the followers of Christ did back in the first century. Read it like you were them, listening to Christ and reading the letters and epistles of Christ's desciples and apostles as if you were back then. Then you will see more clearly that everything was concerning that age and old heaven and earth.
      Other than that, God bless you all thru Jesus Christ, His glorious Son and our savior. Thank you God for opening my eyes to your words of Truth and giving me the spirit to discern it with your wisdom and knowlege.

 Let me bask in the irony!

[jenn]

This whole chapter is talking about John seeing these things not the chruch . He was given a vision by the the holy spirit " being in the spirit"- showing him situations and events he could not have seen with the mere human eyesight.John was simply recording what he saw and heard. Jesus commanded him to write seven letters as He dictated them.
, John alone was caught up to heaven, seeing the twenty-four elders already seated there.The words "church" and "churches" are absent from Rev. 4 - 22.
Well, are you aware that these same words are also absent from 2 Tim., Titus, Heb., 1 & 2 Peter, 1 & 2 John, and Jude? Is the church absent then too?  Titus and 2 John don't even mention Christians, brother(s), brethern, or saint(s) (although they both mention the word "elect"). Does that mean those books don't even pertain to us?Is it possible that the church is mentioned between Rev. 4 and 22?
* Rev. 6:9-11; 20:4 tells about martyrs who are killed for their testimony of Jesus. Are they not part of the church?
* Rev. 7:9-17 tells about a multitude in heaven whose robes have been washed in the blood of the Lamb (Christians?) whose shepherd will be the Lamb. These are in heaven, granted, but they have come out of the great tribulation, and are there after the sun, moon and stars go dark in the sixth seal. (See also Matt. 24:29-31, etc.)
* Rev. 12:17; 13:5-7,10; 14:121 refer to the antichrist's authority over the "saints" and how those who endure will not take his mark. (Can anyone be a "saint" aside from the blood of Jesus? or are there those saved by the blood of Jesus, yet excluded from the church of Jesus Christ?)
*"I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."
Revelation 22:16

[Aiki Storm]

Luke 17:22- Jesus speaks of men looking for signs of his return.  Verse 26 speaks of how His Kingdom will come.  Jesus tells how a few chosen ones were taken out of harms way because of their righteousness.  

Luke 17:26--Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.  People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in maggiage up to the day Noah entered the ark.  Then the flood came and destroyed them all.  

This fits right in with the pre-trib rapture or pre-wrath rapture or mid-trib rapture.  Call it what you will.  The next story Jesus relates the return of his kingdom to is in the 28th verse.  

Luke 17:28--It was the same in the days of Lot.  People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.  But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Both of these stories show that God had compassion on a few choses ones and saved them from wrath by bringing them OUT OF impending destruction.  So the question is when will we be taken in relation to this tribulation hour/period.

1 Thessalonians 4:16--For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds so we will be with the Lord forever.  

Call it rapture, taking up, come up hither, beem me up scotty, whatever......1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us (christians) to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  

There are other verses that point to this subject but Jesus tells it well relating it to these two stories.  Sorry to get off the subject of Rev 4

[Aiki Storm]

InHimITrust writes-Then you will see more clearly that everything was concerning that age and old heaven and earth.
------------------------------------------------------------
? ?
Old heaven?
Old earth?

Sorry but could you please explain?
Thank you
God bless

[Bronzesnake]

Luke 17:22- Jesus speaks of men looking for signs of his return.  Verse 26 speaks of how His Kingdom will come.  Jesus tells how a few chosen ones were taken out of harms way because of their righteousness.  

Luke 17:26--Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man.  People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in maggiage up to the day Noah entered the ark.  Then the flood came and destroyed them all.  

This fits right in with the pre-trib rapture or pre-wrath rapture or mid-trib rapture.  Call it what you will.  The next story Jesus relates the return of his kingdom to is in the 28th verse.  

Luke 17:28--It was the same in the days of Lot.  People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.  But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

Both of these stories show that God had compassion on a few choses ones and saved them from wrath by bringing them OUT OF impending destruction.  So the question is when will we be taken in relation to this tribulation hour/period.

1 Thessalonians 4:16--For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds so we will be with the Lord forever.  

Call it rapture, taking up, come up hither, beem me up scotty, whatever......1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us (christians) to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.  

There are other verses that point to this subject but Jesus tells it well relating it to these two stories.  Sorry to get off the subject of Rev 4

 Storm, excellent post.
Noah entered the ark, the rain and flooding began, and he rose up with his family out of deaths grasp.

 The exact same thing will happen to those who are saved through Jesus. We will be lifted up out of deaths grasp.

I personally ascribe to pre-trib, but if I'm wrong it doesn' really effect my eternal soul, I will catch the flight whenever it arrives!

Bronzesnake

[nChrist]

Bronzesnake Said:

The exact same thing will happen to those who are saved through Jesus. We will be lifted up out of deaths grasp.

I personally ascribe to pre-trib, but if I'm wrong it doesn' really effect my eternal soul, I will catch the flight whenever it arrives!

Bronzesnake

AMEN BROTHER BRONZESNAKE!!!!

Going HOME sounds good - whenever our Lord and Saviour Calls us.

Love In Christ,
Tom