SORRY ! No Rapture Today....or, Next Week...

[Marc]

Okay, so Jesus ISN'T coming? We're doomed to endure all 7 years of the Tribulation? Okay, then it's time for me to start digging the bunker, stacking the ammo boxes and mixing up the ANFO (Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer/Fuel-Oil explosive).

Lock and load!

[Dale]

 Post #12: Serapha:

<< #2 Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11) >>

  Serapha,
             Does it occur to you that the white horse in Revelation could be symbolic rather than literal? If so, these two accounts are not contradictory.

  Likewise, your list of 24 reasons to believe in a Rapture is almost totally devoid of any scriptural reference for the Rapture half of your paired comments. Besides the one I just quoted, you mention Philippans 4:5, "The Lord is near," as evidence. This statement is far too vague to provide evidence for the removal of Christians from a world still at war.

  If Christ were to return for the purpose of Rapture and only later come back to judge the Beast, then the coming with the white horse would not be a Second Coming, but a Third Coming!  Sorry, I don't know one theologian who ever spoke of a Third Coming.

  You also say that those left on earth after the Rapture do not have the opportunity for salvation. My understanding of Christianity is that God would never turn away anyone who wants salvation. Another point: If those "left behind" do not have the opportunity for salvation, then who are the people who refuse the Mark of the Beast and are persecuted for doing so?

[DareDevil]

Hello DD,

There are prophecies to be fullfilled ...before ...Christ can come to take His church home to heaven.

I do hope that when the Lord returns to claim His Bride and all of the believers are "snatched up"... that you don't express rebellion and say,

"Leave me behind!"

My studies have shown that there are too many differences identified in the Bible that are not reconcilable for there to be just one event.  

If you can reconcile these differences, you will make a believer out of me... else, I have to stay with the premillennial theology.

~serapha~




#1
Rapture:  Christ comes in the air  for His own. (1 Thes 4:16)
Second Coming:  Christ comes with His own to earth. (Rev 19:14)

#2
Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11)

#3
Rapture:  There will be a Rapture of all true believers.
Second Coming:  No one is "caught up"

#4
Rapture:  "The Lord is at hand" (Phil 4:5)
Second Coming:  "The Kingdom is at hand" (Matt 24:14)

#5
Rapture:  The expectation of the church is to be taken into the Lord's presence.
Second Coming:  The expectation of Israel is to be taken into the Kingdom.

#6
Rapture:  The Church is taken to heaven at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

#7
Rapture:  The Rapture is imminent, or, at any moment.
Second Coming:  It will be a "glorious appearing" after seven years tribulation.

#8
Rapture:  The Rapture is for believers only.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming affects all mankind.

#9
Rapture:  It is a time of joy and comfort.
Second Coming:  It is a time of mourning and judgement.

#10
Rapture:  The Rapture is before the Day of Wrath.
Second Coming:  It is immediately after the tribulation.

#11
Rapture:  There is no mention of satan.
Second Coming:  Satan will be bound a thousand years.

#12
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the Judgement Seat of Christ
Second Coming:  There is no time/place for judgement.

#13
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the marriage of the Lamb.
Second Coming:  The Bride descends with Christ.

#14
Rapture:  Christians are taken to the Father's house.
Second Coming:  Resurrected saints do not see the Father's house.

Did you forget that the dead in Christ must be raised 'first'....before those who are alive can be taken to be with the Lord ?

#15
Rapture:  After Rapture, tribulation comes.
Second Coming:  After the Coming, the thousand year reign of Christ begins.

#16
Rapture:  The translation is a program for the Church.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is a program for Israel and the world.

#17
Rapture:  The translation is a mystery.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is predicted in both testaments.

#18
Rapture:  Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming:  Creation is changed

#19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.
Second Coming:  The Gentiles are judged.

#20
Rapture:  Believers are judged.
Second Coming:  Gentiles and Israel are judged.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.
Second Coming:  Israel's covenants are fulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.
Second Coming:  Evil is judged.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ judges mankind.

Yes and Jesus said he brings his reward with him....to give 'EVERY' man., (Revelation 22:11,12).

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming

Yes, The Bible says that 'AFTER' the Tribulation Jesus will come agai n(Matthew 24:29-31).

[Dale]

  Seraph, in post #12:
<< #19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming
 >>


  The reason that the "Rapture" has no relation, no effect, on gentiles, Israel, evil, and judgment is that Biblically there is no such concept. Likewise, there are no signs of a coming "Rapture" because there is no such thing.

[2nd Timothy]

Hi Dale,

I am interested in hearing how you interpret the following verses of scripture.  Maybe that would help me understand why it is you do not accept the Rapture as scriptural.  Where possible, try to show what you think each passage means and is talking about.  Please note that I ask in the kindest way.   I only wish to understand your view.


1Thes 3:13
13  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:14-17
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)


1 Cor 15:51-52
51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)

John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(KJV)


After I see where you are coming from, prehaps we can discuss these things in more detail, one point at a time.  

Grace and Peace!

[Dale]

  In post #13, Serapha quotes Martin Luther:
<< Martin Luther writes, "I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared.  Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing and cheerful mind."  >>

  I don't see what this has to do with a "Rapture."

[DareDevil]

  Seraph, in post #12:
<< #19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.

The wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming, (2 Thess. 2:8).

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.

?

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.

True, the Judgment is in heaven, (Revelation 22:11,12).

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming

Yes, the Tribulation comes first ...then Christ's coming, (Matthew 24:29-31).
 >>

 The reason that the "Rapture" has no relation, no effect, on gentiles, Israel, evil, and judgment is that Biblically there is no such concept. Likewise, there are no signs of a coming "Rapture" because there is no such thing.

This is true....there is no such thing as a 'secret Rapture' found in scripture.

[aw]

as the translation of living saints is imminent.

The believer's JUDGMENT is differewnt from the wicked's judgment as there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ. (Romans 8:1,2  et al) The believer is judged only as to rewards and it occurs as the "JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST." It is described in 1 Corinthians. This is entirely different from the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgment of Revealtion in which the believer has no part whatsoever.

aw

[Dale]

 2nd Timothy:
<< John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(KJV) >>

  The Many Mansions passage is certainly one of my favorites. I have no idea what you think it has to do with a Rapture. It is simply a description of heaven, of Paradise. It means that God's Kingdom is vast.

  Likewise, the verse you quote from Thessalonians 3 simply has nothing to do with a Rapture.

[Dale]

 Continuing my reply to 2nd Timothy:

  Harper's Bible Dictionary has an article on Resurrection but none on Rapture, since there is nothing to discuss.
  The Book of Daniel is apocalyptic but there is no mention of Rapture.
  "He [the angel] replied; Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end." Daniel 12:9 NIV
  "You will rest and then at the end of the days you will receive your allotted inheritance." Daniel 12:13 NIV
  This is Resurrection, not "Rapture."
  Ezekiel is apocalyptic and anticipates Revelation on many particulars. Ezekiel 37 describes the resurrection of a valley of dry bones. I am sure that many would see this as foreshadowing a general Resurrection, although there is another interpretation. It is clear that there is no "Rapture" in Ezekiel.
  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
  For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV
  This is four books of the Bible that deal with end time events. None of them foretell a "Rapture" or promise that Christians will be spared end time persecution. On the contrary, Christians are warned about the very persecution that the Rapturists say won't happen.

[2nd Timothy]

 2nd Timothy:
<< John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(KJV) >>

  The Many Mansions passage is certainly one of my favorites. I have no idea what you think it has to do with a Rapture. It is simply a description of heaven, of Paradise. It means that God's Kingdom is vast.

You are correct.  Verse 2 is partly a description of heaven given by the Lord.  You have only addressed a small part of verse 2 however.   We must also understand the second part of verse 2, and verse 3.  How do you interpret these?

John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

I have emboldened the portion you have not addressed.  Without taking the entire passage into consideration we cannot get to the heart of the matter.    We will get to the Thes. passage later.  

I understand from your PM that you have been busy.  No rush at all.  We can take our time here.

Grace and Peace!

[JudgeNot]

Well, 8:05 PM Pacific Standard Time.  No rapture today (yet!) but there are a few hours left before the calendar turns over to 01/19/04.
Lord:  May your kingdom come!  May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  AMEN!

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!  

[2nd Timothy]

Amen JudgNot!

1Co 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

What a blessed hope we await!

Grace and Peace!

[The Crusader]

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!  

The Crusader

[DareDevil]

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!   :)

The Crusader

IF...you believe the Bible.
It says other things must happen first.

The "Mark of the Beast" scenerio comes 'before' anyone is taken to heaven.
 (Understand Revelation 20:4,5).