Questions about percived biblical attrocities

[Petro]

Cont'd...... for gumba.....

When I said evil in this quote, I was unclear, I mean evil in our eyes. Meaning, the chapters I quoted above etc. Were evil things in human eyes. Baby killing etc. Look pretty bad from down here.[/b]

What man among us, can know the mind of God, He speaks to the  storm, wind and the waves and they obey Him; He directs the lighting to its mark, the scriptures asure us of these truths, out side of what He has chosen to make known about himself,  we can know nothing unless He reveals it to us by His Spirit, and He does so.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:12-13, 16)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.(1 Cor 2:14)

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:11)

Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom 8:9)

It is easy to make judgements on what God did four thousand years ago, not knowing the begining from the end of it all.  

But since He is who he is, we are confident He did what was right.

See, this is my sticking point though. Slavery, rape, pillage, murder etc. Were his devices of choice those 4000 years ago. Even if the ends justifyed the means, isn't that a rather cold, dictatorial, take on a God who loves us?

Perhapse I am not one to question. But when considering this God I cannot help it. What did killing all those people, enslaving them, pillaging them, gain in the long run? How could it compensate? Is there any result of it today to indicate it's ultimate merit?

From mans perspective it is. But then again, man,  Gods creation is flawed because of sin, and can it be said, mans perspective is NOT the truth that ends the discussion.

God says, man has sinned against Him, and HE will judge everyman according to his deeds.

The natural man rejects this idea, and thren compares himself to others, and declares I am not as bad as that guy over their, look at what he has done? Therefore I not mdeserving of death.


Unfortunately, for man, Gods standard is perfect obedience to His law,  God doesn't use other men to measured them up to, He uses His onl;y begotten Son, so if you have such thoughts consider Jesus, who lived a sinless life, and then answer the question for yourself;  Have you sinned against God?  Are you deserving of His righteous judgement?  What do all these other things have to do with this..??  

By Faith in Jesus the only begotten Son of God, who shed His blood for the sins of His peolple, men can have all their sins forgiven, but one must acknowlege and repent.

The fact is that unless one repents, he will die the eternal death...all this according to Gods Known Will, provided in His Word.

All good things will come to an end, od has made His will knowen to ALL mankind, he hates sin, and the day is coming when he will Judge the World in righteousness, you can call it evil, if you please, but nothing can be further than the truth.

He has been offering a pardon for nearly two thousand years now, those who reject the pardon, have nowhere else to  turn to for forgiveness of sin.

But this will not prevent nor delay it, one moment.

Are you ready that this day does not catch unawares??

This is another discusion all together. It would be an interesting one, and indeed I am curious as to the nature and mechanisim of salvation. But right now I am exploring the nature of the christian God. I want to know what he is about.

Thank you very much, for your response, and your patience.

What else is could be more imnportant than this??

One can spend his whole life searching out answers to questions which lead now where, ignoring the matter will not resolve it, the answers are found in His Written Word.

You wnat to know these things, get right with Him, and then ask Him, He will answer, all your questions.

In the meantime all you can do is ask for other peoples opinions, and we all have one, but of what value are they if they are mere speculation based on the wisdom of this world.  

The Apostle Paul, says;



 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor 1:17-25)

and again;

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. (1 Cor 3:19-20)

So who are you going to believe??


Blessings,

Petro

[Gumba]

Sorry I was silent today. I'll likely post something tomorow. Not that anyone is holding thier breath or anything

Just letting you know Im around.

[charlie]

If I may be so bold to state in answer to your questions about God's nature, the following:-

First and foremost God is Love and God is Merciful not willing for any of us to perish ie the second death.  God is not wrath nor wrathful.  He only becomes wrathful at the last resort just as any good parent would.

Second, there are no contradictions in God's Word.  If you think you have discovered one then you have to go away and rethink the whole thing - hopefully through God's eyes ie our ways are not His ways.  Our thinking is not His thinking.

Thirdly, in order to understand God's wrath you have to understand His act of love through that act of wrath.  

Fourthly, you have to understand that with evil there is a point of no return ie the devil and his demons.  Man also can reach this stage and would if it were not for God's acts of wrath - His love in destroying people before it is too late for them.  The loss of this physical life is not important when compared to the loss of the spiritual life - the second death.

I hope this helps.

 

[Reba]

What ever GOD does is Godly. Man may not understand or aprove. God can not be  ungodly. For God so loved the world He sent the flood.

[Petro]

If I may be so bold to state in answer to your questions about God's nature, the following:-

First and foremost God is Love and God is Merciful not willing for any of us to perish ie the second death.  God is not wrath nor wrathful.  He only becomes wrathful at the last resort just as any good parent would.

Second, there are no contradictions in God's Word.  If you think you have discovered one then you have to go away and rethink the whole thing - hopefully through God's eyes ie our ways are not His ways.  Our thinking is not His thinking.

Thirdly, in order to understand God's wrath you have to understand His act of love through that act of wrath.  

Fourthly, you have to understand that with evil there is a point of no return ie the devil and his demons.  Man also can reach this stage and would if it were not for God's acts of wrath - His love in destroying people before it is too late for them.  The loss of this physical life is not important when compared to the loss of the spiritual life - the second death.

I hope this helps.

 

charlie,

Welcome to this forum.

You made an excellent point, which needs to looked at closely.

Gods wrath, never is never the result of an uncontrolable rage, as men manifest their wrath, when driven to murder.

It literraly a is a controlled execution of just judgement, done in full cognizance of what is being handed out to those worthy of death.  

Such will be the great day of judgement which comes upon this earth and its inhabitants.

Men must not kid themselves into believing there is no God who will bring all that the holy prophets have testified to, such it was in the days of Noah, when he preached the coming of judgement on the earth by water in his days which he spent building an arch, unduring the mocking of those who witnessed it being built, yet we know that fay came,destroying all except eight souls. (1 Pet 3:20)

There is a coming judgement upon this earth, when Jesus the only begotten Son of God,  will execute justice and judgement during His reign upon the earth on the ungodly, and yet even during this time it will be a period when men can still repent and be saved, then the end will come.

So we can see clearly, that God is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest Him of the evil which befalls men.

But like all good things, they must come to an end, those who enjoy the mercy and grace of God, remaining in the sin of unbelief, while Gods sheds this mercy on them, will in the end one day, come to the eternal judgement, what excuse will they plead before Him, to excuse them of their refusal to acknowledge Him as God the Creator.


Coemthing to think about..

Thanks for your comments.

Blessings,

Petro

[charlie]

Thank you for your welcome, Petro.

I am going to be somewhat controversial now, when I make this statement:-  

The judgement, so called, does not not take place at the end of this physical life, but rather at the end of a second physical life.  Which for those who 'rejected Christ' in this life will have their first opportunity to respond to God's calling.  The white throne judgement of Revelation.

Romans 11:26 states ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.  This scripture needs explanation, remember there are no contradictions in God's word.   This scripture means exactly what it says - all the Israelites of OT times as well as modern  Israelites will be saved.  If we follow the teaching that everyone who is not Christ's, (this must include all those who were born before Christ) in this life are doomed for the lake of fire, then this flies in the face of this prophecy.

You will notice that I put ' ' around the term rejecting Christ.
What does that term REALLY mean.  What are the grounds that constitute TRUE rejection.   I always use the analogy of little Johnny who when faced with a new dish from mum says ugh I don't like it and I don't want it.  Mum says but you haven't tried it how can you say you don't like it!?  Don't care says little Johnny I don't want it, it's yuk!  Now this typifies the usual non-believer's attitude to Jesus Christ and the gift of Grace.   This though is not, I repeat not rejection in the true sense

True rejection of Jesus Christ can only come from those who come to KNOW HIM.  That is true rejection.  Even then though all is not lost, as The Parable of the Prodigal Son proves.  Have you ever noticed that he receives his inheritance ie he has received Christ - answered God's calling and then turns away,  God is always merciful and always receives us back if we admit our faults to Him.

[Petro]

Thank you for your welcome, Petro.

I am going to be somewhat controversial now, when I make this statement:-  

The judgement, so called, does not not take place at the end of this physical life, but rather at the end of a second physical life.  Which for those who 'rejected Christ' in this life will have their first opportunity to respond to God's calling.  The white throne judgement of Revelation.

charlei,

Now, these are the kinds of comments that really get people to think...and thinking critically is what is needed to discern what is true from that which is not true..especially when considering God's word.

The great white throne judgement of Revelation which precedes eternity, will be attended by the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books will be opened: the dead will be judged out of those things which were written in those books, according to their works(Rev 20:12). And another book will be opened, which is the book of life: and the living in Christ who were asleep shall be also be judged according to their works, before the Judgement seat of Christ. (Rom14:10);

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.  (2 Cor 5:20)

Yes, I agree, the judgement appears to be after the resurrection of both small and great, that everyone might receive in his own body according as he has done.

.....it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb 9:27)

There is no literal second death after the judgement, in fact the second judgement for those that stand at the white throne judgement is considered the second death(Rev 20:13-15), but for those in Christ it is referred to as Eternal Lifeon which the second death has no power.(Rev 20:6)

Romans 11:26 states ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.  This scripture needs explanation, remember there are no contradictions in God's word.   This scripture means exactly what it says - all the Israelites of OT times as well as modern  Israelites will be saved.  If we follow the teaching that everyone who is not Christ's, (this must include all those who were born before Christ) in this life are doomed for the lake of fire, then this flies in the face of this prophecy.

Now charlie, this is where you've got to slow down and explain one point at a time....

Lets take your first statement which doesn't sound biblical and see if we can untangle it.  

You said;

This scripture means exactly what it says - all the Israelites of OT times as well as modern  Israelites will be saved.

You need to define "all", as you understand the meaning of this word.  Then reconcile your understanding to that of scripture.

If you can explain this, we will talk further..

Now in order to understand this scripture passage you have quoted we must read it in the lite of:

Rom 1:36, Heb 3, 4,


Blessings,

Petro


You will notice that I put ' ' around the term rejecting Christ.
What does that term REALLY mean.  What are the grounds that constitute TRUE rejection.   I always use the analogy of little Johnny who when faced with a new dish from mum says ugh I don't like it and I don't want it.  Mum says but you haven't tried it how can you say you don't like it!?  Don't care says little Johnny I don't want it, it's yuk!  Now this typifies the usual non-believer's attitude to Jesus Christ and the gift of Grace.   This though is not, I repeat not rejection in the true sense

True rejection of Jesus Christ can only come from those who come to KNOW HIM.  That is true rejection.  Even then though all is not lost, as The Parable of the Prodigal Son proves.  Have you ever noticed that he receives his inheritance ie he has received Christ - answered God's calling and then turns away,  God is always merciful and always receives us back if we admit our faults to Him.

[charlie]

Hello Petro,

All means all, this is what the valley of bones in Ezekiel is all about.   The Father will put ALL things under Our Lord's feet.  All means all.

In Hebrews 3 & 4 the writer is using the example of the rebelliousness of SOME of the Israelites in the wilderness who then never saw the Promised Land.  They were punished for that rebellion then and there.  They will be resurrected.  The Lord through the writer is just using this story as an example to warn those who are called, about the danger of unbelief.   The danger for us being the second death not just a physical death.

Don't forget these wilderness Israelites were not born again, even though they had God in their midst,  they were still under the Law, carnal, sold unto sin.  Our merciful God knew this.  Also if we are saying there is no hope for these people then there is also no hope for Moses for he did not enter the Promised Land either.  Is there no hope for Moses?  God forbid.

[Symphony]

Verses that in some variation suggest that God creates or originates evil:

Is 45:7:

Lam 3:38
II Chron. 18:22
Ex 32:14
II Cor. 5:10
Amos 3:6
Ezek. 20:26
Mic 1:12
Prov. 16:4
Jer. 11:17
     18:11(?)
Zc 8:14
Lev. 14:34
Zc 8:10b
Job 12:16(?)
    42:11
Jer 21:10
Is  13:9
Dty 32:39
Is  54:16b
I Sam. 2:6
Jer 26:3
Jsh 11:20
Ps  105:25
I Sam. 2:25

[charlie]

"Verses that in some variation suggest that God creates or originates evil:"


Would you please define what you mean by evil in this statement?

[Petro]

charlie,

I don't why, but may I ask you a question?

You wouldn't be the old "hitch", that use to post here on this site, would you??

Petro

[charlie]

Petro,

Absolutely not.

Regards

Charlie

[Petro]

Hello Petro,

All means all, this is what the valley of bones in Ezekiel is all about.   The Father will put ALL things under Our Lord's feet.  All means all.

In Hebrews 3 & 4 the writer is using the example of the rebelliousness of SOME of the Israelites in the wilderness who then never saw the Promised Land.  They were punished for that rebellion then and there.  They will be resurrected.  The Lord through the writer is just using this story as an example to warn those who are called, about the danger of unbelief.   The danger for us being the second death not just a physical death.

Are you saying that God will resurrect those who died in unbelief at Heb 3, 4, and will save them??

Don't forget these wilderness Israelites were not born again, even though they had God in their midst,  they were still under the Law, carnal, sold unto sin.  Our merciful God knew this.  Also if we are saying there is no hope for these people then there is also no hope for Moses for he did not enter the Promised Land either.  Is there no hope for Moses?  God forbid.

If you are, and it appears you are.  How do you reconcile this scripture to your idea, that Esekiel 37, teaches this;

.......it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:Heb 9:27

The resurrection of the dead will be for the express purpose of standing before the Great White Throne Judgment for those whose names are NOT found written in the Book of Life or the Judgment Seat of Christ for those whose names ARE found written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
 
I gave you all the verses which cover this very matter in my previous post..

Blessings,

Petro

[charlie]

Petro,

Correct there is a Judgement and I will get into that in a minute.  

Let's look first at Jesus' sacrifice.  He died and took ALL of mankind's sin, PAST, present and future.  All people before Christ with the exception of Moses, King David and the Prophets, died in their sins, ALL of them.  All the Israelites in the wilderness and even those who entered the promised land died in their sins.   Those who died prematurely in the wilderness died because of their rebelliousness and that was their punishment.

Now, let's look at the Judgement.  All these people are standing before the Throne of God.  They have been resurrected in order to do this.   They are then judged according to their works.  What kind of works, and if 'good' works are they then saved?  If you are saying yes to this then you saying they will have EARNT their salvation.  A salvation through works.  God forbid, salvation is through Christ and Christ alone.

Those whose names are in the Book of Life are those who are born again.  Those who stayed the course in this life, there is also a judgement for us but that is to give out the different rewards.   Some will be given one city others five cities and so on.

[charlie]

Apologies

I forgot Enoch, Noah, Abraham and his immediate descendants, who should also be included with Moses and co.