Mark of the Beast

[Petro]

Petro,

Firstly, (Not that you are saying this at all, but I just wanted to be clear for others reading along) I do not believe a persons stand on pre, mid, or post Rapture has any bearing on ones salvation.  I believe most christians would accept this point.

Now, the debate about whether or not the rapture is pre or post trib is an argument that has scripture to support both conclusions.   Both sides make a good case, but in my view, the "imminency" doctrine holds more water than that of the post tribulation rapture.  Believers back in bible days were greeting each other by saying "Maranatha", which means "Our Lord comes"...almost as if they were willing him to come, or expecting it at any time.


Maranatha!

2d Tim,

I culled out most of your post, because I wanted to ask you a question and make a comment.

I will make my comment first, this centers around the "Emminency Doctrine"

I hadn't heard the word for some time, and since I have a tendency to forget things, I thought I would re acquaint myself with the teaching before bringin this up.

I believe in a rapture and  I consider myself Pre Mill, and see problems with the both pre and mid trib rapture postions, but I suspect it is my misunderstanding of certain end times scriptures.

However, in considering these things, I would not subscribe to a position espoused by known heretics.

This doctrine known as the "Eminence of the Second coming of Christ" teachings, were started by Edward Irving sometime before the 1830's.

I am posting the website for your review;

http://mb-soft.com/believe/text/imminenc.htm

Is this what you mean by what you had referenced, or is there some new doctrine, by the same name?

Blessings,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

2d Tim,
snip...
I will make my comment first, this centers around the "Emminency Doctrine"
SNIP...

I believe in a rapture and  I consider myself Pre Mill, and see problems with the both pre and mid trib rapture postions, but I suspect it is my misunderstanding of certain end times scriptures.

However, in considering these things, I would not subscribe to a position espoused by known heretics.

This doctrine known as the "Eminence of the Second coming of Christ" teachings, were started by Edward Irving sometime before the 1830's.

Hey Petro,

I was not refering to Edward Irving.  He may or may not have been the one to coin the phrase, but there is no question using men's teaching outside of the bible for commentary or bible guides can be a dangerous thing.  In saying this, I believe in many cases this doctrine goes much farther back than 1800's, but I digress.  My view is that the bible is quite capable of defending itself, if one devotes enough time to weigh and balance all scripture therin, allowing God himself to guide us through prayer and understanding.

I myself was raised in a home that taught Jesus could return at any moment, which I'm sure has some bearing on my view of various scripture.   However, in searching for Gods truth on the matter, there remains numerous scripture to support the idea of an "imminant" return of Christ.  (Could happen at any moment doctrine).   First and foremost, the idea that we are told to be constantly watching for him.  Pre or post, people will watch for him, but it seems to bear more weight for pre trib views.  The saints who endure the trib will no doubt be watching for his return, but they will know when he is coming, when Jesus himself says that we would not know.

Another question is, if we are waiting for the Antichrist to make himself known, or the tribulation to happen, then we are putting limits on what God can or cannot do.   I for one will not do that, just as I would not say he isn't coming at the end of trib.  As of this point as I previously have said, I am watching for his return regardless.   I do lean towards a pre-trib only because there is abundant evidence in scripture that warns us to be alert for his return at any moment.  Only the father really knows when this will be.  

One thing is certain, he said he is coming back, and he told us to keep watch, lest he catch us by surprise.  In my view, we are brushing up against the very times Jesus spoke of in Matthew.  The signs he spoke of are all around us and are ever increasing in number and intensity.   He said when you see these things begin to come to pass, know that the time is short.   Of course, each generation throughout history has seen some of these signs, but not on the level we see them today or totality.  We are already starting see evidence of things that are foretold during tribulation (which was the idea of the original post).  There are many people in disagreement about how prophecy will unfold.  Just as it was about how the messiah would come the first time.  Gods plan is perfect, and only his way will be right whatever that may be.  We should never forget this and think we are wiser than he, and become bogged down with arguing about how he will do it.  Sure, we should study his word regarding his return, but also take comfort in the fact that he is the author, and knows the outcome to the letter.  For now we see through a glass, darkly; as Paul says.  Scripture is not always black and white, and I believe this is to keep us searching and seeking his endless truth.

So in closing, let me say....In no way do I wish to miss him for lack of watchfullness as he told us to do, or spiritual laziness by not carrying on the work he left for us.   My hand is on the plow, but my head is on a swivel.  All indicators say our redemption is drawing neigh.

Grace and Peace!

[Brother Love]

I believe the Word of God (THE BIBLE)

Pre-Trib

Brother Love

[2nd Timothy]

I should probably add that my view on pre trib is not soley based on just being watchful.   There is a lot of weight that can be added to this by other things mentioned in scripture.

1. Jacobs trouble, refering to the decendants of Jacob.  The argument here is that tribulation period appears to be aimed towards Israel not the church.  In Dan 9:24 An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" In Revelation only 144,000 from the 12 tribes are sealed by the angel.  What about the chruch? These 2 do not apear to be the same.   Revelation 13:7 says the Antichrist will make war with the saints and overcome them.  This also agrees with the fact the there is no mention of the church after chapter 3.  Attention appears to switch towards Israel during the trib.

2.  The parable of the 10 virgins.  There are 5 that are foolish.  Cleary this group is excluded from from where the festivities are occuring.  One could easily see how it would be possible to equate this to pre trib events rather than post trib.  By the way, traditional wedding feasts generally happen before the wedding ceramony.  (not this is scriptural evidence, just food for thought)

3.  1 Thessalonians 5:9 says we are not appointed to Gods wrath.  Some would argue that God will protect us during the tribulation (and possibly he will).   However, as stated in point 1, we are told in Revelation 13:6-7 that the Antichrist/beast is given power to overcome the saints.  He also blasphemes God along with those dwelling in heaven.   Who is dwelling in heaven here?  And how is God keeping the church from his wrath if he gives the beast power over the saints?  This is difficult to address in light of the blessed hope spoken of in Thessalonians.  A pre-trib view very easily addresses this.

4.  And of course the unknown hour, and keeping busy in the Lord.  This seems hard to equate with post trib activity for reasons I have stated earlier.


I can almost sense the tense gasket blowing rebutals going on in the minds of those who disagree with what what I have said above   So let me again say, that I am not dogmatic in my pre trib stance, however, there does appear to be much weight given in Gods word that could imply a pre-trib rapture.   This is only a small portion too.   Much of the above is easy to address, if you view it through pre-trib rapture glasses, but hard to address through post trib rapture glasses.  

Just some food for thought  

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

2d Tim,

Amazingly, I agree with you on most all that you have posted.

The problem I have had with the "emminence teaching" is that unless it is simply defined as He is coming in accordance with His plan (which would be sufficient to make the point) this would not be such a difficult teaching to swallow.

But when the words added; "at any moment", imediately this raise flags for me, since those who adhere to the teaching point to its teaching to have been observed from the early church, and this is not supported in scripture, the emminence doctrine was not introduced into the church until the 19th century.

The problem with this teaching, is that before 1948, there was no Nation of Israel, yet His coming according to the prophetic words of the Prophet Ezekiel who prophecisied the re brith of the nation, together with Daniels prophecy especially of the 70 weeks (primarily directed at Jews) was to  precede the Lords return.

While the pre trib position has its problems, I lean toward it myself, but find that aligning myself with it, without working out these tanglings in the teaching which are clearly not supported by scripture, takes away from the task at hand.

Perhaps it would be good to start a thread to point out the inconsistencies, it might make for a good discussion.

I will do that, rather then get further off track herein.

Like you, I see, living ones life as though he can return at any moment, encourages a subjected life to the Spirit, but it also means we should continue to search the scriptures to reconcile the scriptures which do not seem to fit Biblical theology.

Blessings,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Petro,

Doing a little digging around on the net, I was able to find a few quotes on the immency doctrine which predates the 19 century.  Let me first say that in no way to I accept any of these as gospel, or Gods truth, but clearly men had the idea for some time.

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins" (Pseudo-Ephraem (374-627 AD).

The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'"

As early as 70 - 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, "'Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."

"But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!" (Tertullian 155 - 245 AD).

Again, I find it hard to put faith in the writtings of man outside of Gods word, but there appears to be evidence the immency doctrine dates back many years ago.

Something else I find interesting in scripture, is Daniels version of the Lords Day in Dan 12:1-3 as opposed to the mystery (something not yet seen or heard of) refered to by the Apostle Paul in 1Co 15:51.   Surely believers had heard of Daniels prophecy concerning the Lords Day, yet Paul explains something new and different here.  Of course, we know that the chruch was not present for the first 69 weeks Daniel detailed.  Will it be present for the last week? (as in Jacobs trouble or Gods dealing with the Jews?)   These are very probing questions that deserve looking into.  OR at least for me they are...lol

Grace and Peace!

[Ambassador4Christ]

The imminent, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ to catch up the members of His body to be with Him forever is the "blessed hope" of the believer (I Thes. 4:13-18; Titus 2:13). The body of Christ will not be on the earth during the time of Jacob's trouble, also known as the Tribulation (Rom 13:11; I Thes. 4:13-16, 5:1-11; II Thes. 2:1-17).


Grace & Peace

[Symphony]

The new RFIC chips are just one more example of the grander trend towards global, bureaucratic--governmental, commercial, and religious--tyranny.  Bureaucracy, in those three broad categories generally, is replacing any "faith" in a Creator or God, with faith in itself(the "human spirit", as Hollywood likes to call it, or just plain humanism)--at the point of a gun or, more likely, just at the risk of being "left out".

That we are moving towards a totally watertight tracking system, would only make sense; it will only aid in screening out the undisrables--esp. right now, terrorists.

People generally, the world over, equate democracy, with civilization, and, seeing the material benefit thereof, like the Pied Piper of Hammlin, are being led to believe in that--a "god" of sorts.  To hold membership in that, it seems evident that it will be "either/or".  You either is, or you isn't.  Apparently, that is where the mark will come in.

I've imagined that the mark itself will be a type of tattoo, perhaps invisible, but readable electronically.

I'm guessing that even most church people will be clamoring for it, assuming that the trend in terrorism will be growing much mor violent, widespread, etc.   Most churches generally seem subjects of the state--or of commerce--OR, they all three at one time or another seem to pretty much be in bed with the other two.

   

[Coyote]

Ok hereis a something to ponder.....
The military usually pioneers (we are the guinea pigs) new technolgies like this. So logic would say that us Christians who are currently serving would be required to get this chip. Now I doubt this chip really would be the MARK but it still makes me uncomfortable. They already have my DNA, I probably have a clone somewhere in Nevada now the Goverment wants to know everything else about me?

They will know more than Santa Claus...lol

[2nd Timothy]

Ok hereis a something to ponder.....
The military usually pioneers (we are the guinea pigs) new technolgies like this. So logic would say that us Christians who are currently serving would be required to get this chip. Now I doubt this chip really would be the MARK but it still makes me uncomfortable. They already have my DNA, I probably have a clone somewhere in Nevada now the Goverment wants to know everything else about me?

They will know more than Santa Claus...lol

Any type of mark or implant on/in the hand or forehead that is required to make sales or purchases should be viewed with great caution.  Here is what is said about this mark.

Rev 13:16
16  He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead,
17  so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
(NIV)

Everyone will be forced to take the mark, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave.  And it is a necessity to buy or sell.

Rev 14:9-10
9  A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
10  he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
(NIV)

Here we are told that those who received the mark worship the beast and his image, and that they will bring damnation on themselves by doing so.

I remember when I was very young, they came out with the bar code.   Everyone in church circles harralded this as the mark of the beast.  Who knows, perhaps that will be incorperated somehow.  Now we have the implant chip.  Clearly at this stage, it is not now the mark of the beast.  It is being spoke of as new technology that would be a convenience in monitary transations, identification, tracking of people good or bad.   Sounds pretty nice doesnt it?  However, if you ponder how the devil could make use of such a thing, Rev 13:16-17 should go off like a gong!

It becomes clear that the technology now exists for this prophetic passage of scripture to take place when the time comes.   The question is, how far off is that time?  A better question is, how soon will the Lord return?

Grace and Peace!

[Symphony]

Yep Tim, the latest twist is the RFID--soon to replace the bar code(the first bar code use was in 1974).

The RFID concept is similar, but takes the bar code one step--and a giant step--farther.   And its a tiny chip, imbedded.

Bar codes id categories of products.  All of the same boxes of cereal, for instance, on a grocer shelf, like Post Raisin Bran, have the same bar code.

With RFID, however, even all the same boxes within a category, would each have its own id.  Actually, because of the mathematical possiblities in RFID, the range is virtually infinite.  Every product manufactured by man, will have its own, unique ID--where you bought it, when you bought it, etc.

This website talks a little about it:  http://www.nocards.org/AutoID/overview.shtml

Wal-Mart, I believe, has begun requiring them from some of their suppliers.


Yep, Coyote, I think one of the central-most themes of the whole Bible is this question of "id".  Ezekiel records more than 55 variations of the declaration, "...then they shall know, that I am the Lord..."

God is very concerned about Who He Is, (I AM THAT I AM); and who likewise His people are("...ye are a chose people, a royal priesthood...").

Thus a world id system of any kind naturally would come in direct conflict with that.

The same conflict Pilate immediately deflected, but admitted to, when he refused the Pharisee's request that he change the sign over our crucified Jesus from "King of the Jews", to "He said he was, 'King of the Jews'"(the Pharisees had earlier admitted their own guilt, when they declared, "We have no king but Caesar").  

"What I have written, I have written", I believe was Pilate's reply, to the Pharisee's request.

[2nd Timothy]

Yep Tim, the latest twist is the RFID--soon to replace the bar code(the first bar code use was in 1974).

The RFID concept is similar, but takes the bar code one step--and a giant step--farther.   And its a tiny chip, imbedded.

Bar codes id categories of products.  All of the same boxes of cereal, for instance, on a grocer shelf, like Post Raisin Bran, have the same bar code.

With RFID, however, even all the same boxes within a category, would each have its own id.  Actually, because of the mathematical possiblities in RFID, the range is virtually infinite.  Every product manufactured by man, will have its own, unique ID--where you bought it, when you bought it, etc.

Where I work this is already in use.   Everything, even the employees have a bar code.  I have to swipe a badge which has a bar code showing my ID and SS# which clocks me in and tracks my work hours, as well as movement throughout the building.  Any doors that I open are done by the data card using RFID on my badge that holds my level of security clearance.  All product in the warehouse has a barcode that when picked up from its location, is scanned by the forklift driver, (system knows which driver has it) and when its dropped off at its new location is scanned again by the driver.  Any product that travels on conveyer belts is also scanned.  Any product that tries to sneak its way out the door in someones pockets sets off an alarm.  

You would think from hearing all this that I work for Lockheed or some super secret government agency.  In reality, I work for Blockbuster Inc. at the corporate distribution center.

The millisecond they require personal ID's to be moved from a clip on card to implant of any kind, I will be looking searching for a new job.

This technology is sneaking up on us ever so quietly.  I wonder how companies and government will react when christian employee's nationwide, refuse to follow suit and get an implant or mark?  Job termination will no doubt be the first remedy, (not able to buy or sell)....followed by persecution eventually, based on the reason for our refusal to comply...Faith in Jesus Christ, and his holy word.

Maranatha!

Grace and Peace!

[chris_carman]

guns in my opionion are the mark of the beast for you either except a gun in your right hand or chances are you will get a bullet in your head also guns are used to kill which breaks the 7th commandment there is a certain indivisual who was idolized through poster with a golden gun around his neck and he spoke words of blasphame and lies and slandered the name of god in all his songs and the second beast is promoting his intrest through a movie and calling it his reseriction if any have found this out besides me then please respond

 May god bless all those who see this message and take it to heart

[Petro]

guns in my opionion are the mark of the beast for you either except a gun in your right hand or chances are you will get a bullet in your head also guns are used to kill which breaks the 7th commandment there is a certain indivisual who was idolized through poster with a golden gun around his neck and he spoke words of blasphame and lies and slandered the name of god in all his songs and the second beast is promoting his intrest through a movie and calling it his reseriction if any have found this out besides me then please respond

 May god bless all those who see this message and take it to heart

chris,

Welcome to this forum.

Thanks for your first post.

Actually the word Kill, in the sixth commandment (Ex 20:13), refers to murder, not just kill in anyway.

This is made clear by Jesus, who spoke of it, and sheds lite on this very thing, when quoting the commandments himself.

You can see it clearer at'

Mat 19:18, Mk 15:7, Lk 23:19, and the aposlte Paul writes at;

 Rom 1
28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29  Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30  Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32  Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Blessings to you,
Petro

[Justanotherfollowe]

8) First of I would like to start by saying that if you are a true Christian then you will not have to worry about the Mark Of the Beast of and thing's to come in the tribulation time's. There are no sign's given to mark the coming of the rapture of the church (the coming of Christ). The sign's that are in the Bible are the sign's of  the tribulation period. But thinks are visible however to the fact that the Mark of the best is comen.The mark of the beast is something that divides the church in many ways. Some say it's a computer chip in the hand, others say that it's a secret credit card code. I believe that the best way to discern the meaning of 666 is to examine the scripture verse-by-verse
Let's look at this most famous passage:
Revelations 13: 16-18
"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
A lot of teacher's that teach about the mark of the beast all agree that the best is the one world goverment.Which most further agree that the one world government is represented By the UN. If the beast is the United Nations and this "mark" is a count or vote of the beast then we should be looking at UN Resolution 666. This is the voice vote of the UN.the Resolution 666 was adopted on September 13, 1990, and concerns IRAQ. Decides that all states shall prevent
1>The import into their territories of all commodities and products originating in Iraq or Kuwait exported therefrom after the date of the present resolution
2>Any activities by their nationals or in their territories which would promote or are calculated to promote the export or transshipment of any commodities or products from Iraq or Kuwait; and any dealings by their nationals or their flag vessels or in their territories in any commodities or products originating in Iraq or Kuwait and exported therefrom after the date of the present resolution, including in particular any transfer of funds to Iraq or Kuwait for the purposes of such activities or dealings
3>The sale or supply by their nationals or from their territories or using their flag vessels of any commodities or products, including weapons or any other military equipment, whether or not originating in their territories but not including supplies intended strictly for medical purposes, and, in humanitarian circumstances, foodstuffs, to any person or body for the purposes of any business carried on in or operated from Iraq or Kuwait, and any activities by their nationals or in their territories which promote or are calculated to promote such sale or supply of such commodities or products. Most in the church assume, ASSUME, that all prophecies are dealing with worldwide events. They forget that SATAN is the subtlest beast of the field. His way is not via bold, highly visible changes. But subtle, slow moving changes. The mechanisms set in place with resolution 666 made it possible for the UN to take part in financial and regulatory affairs of member states in a more engaging manner. Now, when an American Pop Star has a dispute with regard to their website or other matters, they don't take the matter to a US Court of law under US Constitutional rules, they take the matter to the UN Court of law.
How strange is the embargo against IRAQ. Consider the embargo against CUBA. The UN does not actively control the sale or purchase of goods sold to CUBA. Yet, they do with IRAQ under resolution 666.
How ever I have heard of a chip that goes into the hand to show identification, But like you said this could be a prototype put out to test the mechanic's of this product, it would be a big laugh for them to send a world domination devise out into the world and it fail.