Does Election necessarily mean Rejection?

[Reba]

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

[John the Baptist]

Just a question. Has any every been a rebel before they became a christian? Had you ever openly violated the law of God? Do you remember how easy it was after you did the same sin over & over again? Lieing becomes easy! Stealing also is not bothersome! (unless one is caught)

Well, the first time the conscience is tender & the Holy Spirit can convict us of the sin. But as one continues on & on, the Holy Spirit is grived & quinched & it becomes harder & harder for God to reach us! This is what God means about His taking the rape for the hardening of ones heart.

Another example is seen in Rev. 3:16-17. There is NO condemnation against Laodicea's profession, yet THEIR LOVE IS SICK! And Christ said that they WILL BE SPEWED OUT! (fact) The Holy Spirit COULD NOT REACH THEM! They were BLIND, and NAKED OF CHRIST ROBE OF RIGHTOUSNESS! What was the basic bottom line problem? They were HEARD HEARTED! LOVE WAS THERE, YET IT WAS 'LUKEWARM'!

Then NOTICE that even the COLD COULD BE REACHED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE THESE LUKEWARM ONES!! Now, did God harden their hearts?  No way! Yet, He takes the heat for ALLOWING His creation FREE WILL! If you don't think so, read the many posts that we are ROBOTS with NO FREE WILL!

Harder and harder for GOD to reach us? Who is man  that he can make things HARD for GOD? Is GOD weak, feable, or powerless against man? NO! HE is GOD , GOD of the earth ,GOD of Salvation ,GOD of all creation. I was dead in sin dead HE made me alive! He waited for Lazerus to be dead  real dead to the point of stinking, as i was.  THEN HE called him forth. Lazerus was, shell we say, hard dead.    



Rev 3:14-19
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
KJV

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
KJV

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
KJV

Where does the scripture say what you said it says?
 

The Holy Spirit COULD NOT REACH THEM!

Who is man  that he can limit the very SPIRIT of GOD?

******
WHATEVER?
Just one question then, in closing your posts out. Why did God not save Luciffer & the fallen angels, Cain and [ALL] of the rest [if He can] do so while still allowing one freedom of choice?

So I guess that you believe in universial salvation as we are seeing on other forums? (I personally have no time to wast with that belief, just do your thing)

---John

[Petro]

The GodHead created ALL of His creation with free will. They knew what each individual would FREELY choose. And They  knew what ones would not choose to develope a character through the provision's that all of their creation had available to them. The verse by Christ is ETERNAL GOSPEL, that without me ye can do nothing.

ALL had & have the same FREE opportunity to Mature in Christ. Forknowledge of the GodHead does not effect ones salvation either way, the CHOICE IS OURS TO MAKE! (They just knew the outcome in advance) Even the Gentile ones of Rom. 2:14-15!

jhon the baptist,

Do you know what the gosple of the kingdom is?? according to the scriptures.

If you refered someone to it, where would you send them??

Petro

[Reba]

******
WHATEVER?
Just one question then, in closing your posts out. Why did God not save Luciffer & the fallen angels, Cain and [ALL] of the rest [if He can] do so while still allowing one freedom of choice?

So I guess that you believe in universial salvation as we are seeing on other forums? (I personally have no time to wast with that belief, just do your thing)

---John

John i dont understand your post. . .   I dont have a clue what you mean by  'universial salvation'

I believe GOD chooses NOT so save those HE chooses not to and HE chooses those who he saves.


John you did not answer the question.( posted again  below)  Are you going to or are you just saying WHATEVER like a high school kid who didnt study?

Where does the scripture say what you said it says?

[Left Coast]

John
Somewhere in between universalism and works based gospels the truth resides.
God chooses who to save and lets the others go their own way. Man is doomed for Hell but it is Gods pleasure to save some.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

[John the Baptist]

John
Somewhere in between universalism and works based gospels the truth resides.
God chooses who to save and lets the others go their own way. Man is doomed for Hell but it is Gods pleasure to save some.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

********
Hay, we agree on that!

[aw]

John
Somewhere in between universalism and works based gospels the truth resides.
God chooses who to save and lets the others go their own way. Man is doomed for Hell but it is Gods pleasure to save some.

Ephesians 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

aw replies: Bur scripture reveals that hell was prepared for satan and his cohorts.

aw

[Ralph]

  The Scripture which speaks of God hardening the heart of Pharoah--He did so by merely removing from Pharoah the restraint (common grace restraint) with which He had earlier strenthened Pharoah against Pharoah's evil nature. God's restraint being removed, Pharoah immediately fell into that hardness from the weight of his own nature. Those today who are unbelievers often think that they have a measure of personal moral integrity. The truth is, that God is being kind to them by His common grace. But as long as they are without Christ, God may at anytime give them up (see Romans
1:24,26,28) to their evil nature. Even if He continues to restrain their natural bent to evil throughout their life, at the point of their death, they will be totally without every former
common grace. No further help. Soon, they will find that they in themselves were no better than Hitler, Stalin, Jeffery Dahmer, Ted Bundy, or any other monster who just didn't have the same help they had gotten--but all through their life, they were personally taking the credit for being an upstanding citizen: refusing to acknowledge God's help. After death, they are on their own and will shortly find themselves in Hitler's neighborhood. Now the deliverance from sin that they thought they had no need of is no longer available.  

[Ralph]

AW--Anyone who comes to Him will have been chosen in Christ "before the foundation of the world." No one else will come to Him. He was under no obligation to choose anyone,
but He did choose certain ones in Christ to make known to all the "glory of His grace." Every spiritual blessing enjoyed by His chosen ones is the result of His having chosen them--not from anything in themselves. His choosing them is solely according to the "good pleasure of His will."
  Those chosen in Him before the foundation of the world are
His "seed" (Isa. 53: "He shall see His seed") and therefore, in Isa. 9:6, Christ is called "The everlasting Father" and to His children, He is "The Prince of peace." Just as surely as all those in Adam died as a consequence of his sin, so all those
chosen in Christ will live because of Christ's righteousness
(Romans 5). Their names were also written down in the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of he world (Rev.)
  These are the ones whom the Father draws (without which no one can come to Christ.) That is also spoken of in the OT:
"The LORD has appeared of ols unto me saying, Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you." Jer. 31:3 and the Psalmist spoke of it: "blessed is the man whom you choose and
cause [don't miss that-"cause"] to approach unto you that he may dwell in your courts." Ps.65:4 The praise and the glory for the salvation of any soul from perdition belongs ONLY TO GOD.
  Rejection is simply a matter of Him having passed over those whom He did not choose unto salvation.

[Allinall]

I think I've posted this before but...I believe that God, as is stated in scripture, chose me before the foundations of the world.  This chosing was not based upon foreknowledge of my choices, but on His Own plan.  Yet, I believe that in that chosing I was given a choice to make - obey God's call, or disobey God's call - a choice that had eternal consequence.

[aw]

Yes, and I know where you are coming from, but the problem is in that if God picked out only certain ones A PRIORI, why does He say that He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance?

Perhaps we will just have to settle for it being a divine PARADOX that we cannot know the answer to for now?

aw

[Ralph]

  AW--concerning your reply #25 about The Lord being longsuffering, not willing that any should perish--the apostle has been talking about the destruction of the earth by fire and says that God is not slack concerning that promise "but is longsuffering to usward [note that "usward"] not willing that any (of the usward) should perish, but that all should come to repentance" Then, later on, he says "wherefore, count that the longsuffering of the Lord IS SALVATION (Caps mine) Notice that Peter just said that the result of His longsuffering was the accomplishing of His goal that none should perish. Notice the "usward." That usward spoken of applies to all those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. If it applied to each and every individual of mankind like the Arminians want it to mean, then God's longsuffering would not at all issue in the salvation Peter spoke of, for the longer this world rocks on, the greater is the mass of those who descend into an eternity without Christ. The only way God could accomplish His goal that none should perish by witholding that judgement is if (as is the case) those spoken of that He was not willing any of them should perish referred to His ELECT.

[aw]

I will never believe that anyone will stand before the Lord and say, "I really wanted salvation but I was not elected."

aw

[Petro]

 AW--concerning your reply #25 about The Lord being longsuffering, not willing that any should perish--the apostle has been talking about the destruction of the earth by fire and says that God is not slack concerning that promise "but is longsuffering to usward [note that "usward"] not willing that any (of the usward) should perish, but that all should come to repentance" Then, later on, he says "wherefore, count that the longsuffering of the Lord IS SALVATION (Caps mine) Notice that Peter just said that the result of His longsuffering was the accomplishing of His goal that none should perish. Notice the "usward." That usward spoken of applies to all those chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. If it applied to each and every individual of mankind like the Arminians want it to mean, then God's longsuffering would not at all issue in the salvation Peter spoke of, for the longer this world rocks on, the greater is the mass of those who descend into an eternity without Christ. The only way God could accomplish His goal that none should perish by witholding that judgement is if (as is the case) those spoken of that He was not willing any of them should perish referred to His ELECT.

Ralph,

You hit the nail on the head.

The "us-ward" refers to the elect; God does have a burden for the world this is true, but at this passage of scripture, He specificallhy is speaking of His chosen people.

The same word "us-ward" is used at Eph 1:10, and it is there used to refer to believers

And the passage herein refers to "sin", He is longsuffering as a patient Father with an unruly child, who continues to insist on being disobedient, when He has been instructed and knows better.

"Not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"  (2 Pet 3:9),

Note: That this does not refer to those who are refered to, in verses 1 thru 5, since they are called scoffers and ignorant of the things spoken of by the Apostles of our Lord and Savior.

Here is a verse which lights this passage and the thought it portrays, with regard to the elect that transgress, remember sin is the transgression of the law. (1 Jhn 3:4)
 
Please follow this closely;

Rom 5
15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:


Note, at verse 15, that the offence, (sin), is not like the GIFT, and then verse 16 again states, The gift of God is not like the result of one man's sin but;

The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but

the gift followed many tresspasses and brought justifcation.

Can you see this again read verse 16, the word tells us, that inspite of many sins, the believers commit, they shall be justified in the end, of course one will them ask;

HOW is this possible, since sin, kills the soul.

The answer is found in the next verse;

17  For if, by the tresspass of the one man, (Adam) how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision  of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life throught the one man, Jesus Christ.

Our salvation is not based on our works, it is based on Jesus finished works at the cross, has done for us.

Only when one understands this one point, will he cease his own laboring to enter into Gods rest.

It is offensive to the Spirit of Grace, when man wants to add to his own salvation by doing this or that.

The people of God, obey His word, because they are saved, not because they want to be saved.

It is a conundrum, and not understood by those that live in the flesh by human wisdom, this is why we are called to live in the spirit.


Blessings,

Petro

 

[Left Coast]

I will never believe that anyone will stand before the Lord and say, "I really wanted salvation but I was not elected."

aw

And you won't. The Elect are those that are rescued. That is the type of salvation it is. What you will hear is people who thought they were saved, thought they did the work to get themselves saved.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

We want to be in control, we're control freaks.
When we surrender complete control to God then we have hope.
We can only be like the publican and throw ourselves on Gods mercy.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Search the scripture for in them we have life.

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.