Foreknowledge or Determinate Counsel of God Acts 2:23

[Petro]

I have heard many, when discussing election, limit the use of the definition for the word foreknowledge, as in 1 Pet 1:2, to mean that God looked down the corridor of time, to see, what man would do with Jesus before formulating His plan.

While this same word is also, defined as Gods "predeterminate plan",  since He is sovereign,

Are  their any scriptures which would bolster the idea that God did in  fact make his plan up in accordance with "What man would do" as opposed to "According to His Determinate Counsel of His will."

There are several problems that I see, which must be overcome;by those who hold to the idea God had to wait upon men to see what they do;

1. Is God a mere spectator, or observer, or is He the one that made the plan, from beginning to end??

For instance, consider this verse;

Isa 46
9  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:



2.   Grace- the definitions of grace is one of an undeserving free gift given by Gods mercy and Soveriegn pleasure of His will.

The idea that it is given because of what someone might do or not do in the future, is simply not in accordance with the biblical definition of this word, rather the word teaches plainly that it is given to those He has chosen; or ELECTED

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
These things I command you, that ye love one another.
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (Jhn 15:16-19)


Abraham, said to Isaac;

Gen 22

8  And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

That Lamb pointed to;   "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Jhn 1:29

If God had to look down thru the corridor of time, to see if man would kill, His lamb, can it really be said, God provided Himself a Lamb by his own determintae counsel and foreknowledge to save His people, or did mans actions determine the  savlvation of  the people of God.??





Any ideas??  with verses??  to support this notion..

Petro

[Petro]

Genesis 22:18.  And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Some questions.

God has revealed that He foreknows that in Abraham's seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. This because of Abraham's obedience.
Did God foreknow Abraham's obedience?
Did He have to see if Abraham would obey before He had this forknowledge of all the nations being blessed?

Ollie

Ollie,

God had already declared Abram, righteous,

Gen 15
6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

His name wasn't changed until, he was given a knew name, and the covenant concerning what you have raise, was made with him (that of: all the nations of the earth being blessed in him ,bacause of his obediance)

Gen 12
12:1  Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
2  And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3  And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4  So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.
5  And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.
6  And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7  And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
8  And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.
9  And Abram journeyed, going on still toward the south.

Abram, could have chosen not to go, yet he did..

Where do you read God foreknew Abraham would obey??

If He foreknew anything about Abraham, it was because He predetermined it..

This what the scripture says about this matter;

Rom 8
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Was not Abram called to go..

Sorry?, wrong key stroke, and it posted before I was done..

This is the question you need to settle in your mind,

If God formulated His plan, then He is under obligation to bring it to fruition, otherwise, He is a false God.

The question, which is more important than the one you ask, is;

Did He chose Abraham, because He foreknew, that Abraham would obey Him, by looking forward in time??

What does God say; about Abraham??

Gen 17
1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2  And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3  And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5  Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

God made His covenant with Abram, before Abram obeyed, in Gen 12, God simply said to him, " Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:" Gen 12:1.

And God even promised to make him a great nation and to make a covenant with him, before Abram, did anything.

At Gen 17:5, God changed his name to Abraham, the result of the covenant which he had stated he would make with him, at Gen 12, when he called him out of the UR of the Chaldees.


Gen 18
19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

God said all this before God tested Abram; before he obeyed, whereby God used this testing to declare Abraham Justified by faith

Gen 22
1  And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

And then Paul says in;

Heb 11
17  By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.
18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Rom 4
3  For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
6  Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9  Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10  How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11  And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12  And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13  For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14  For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16  Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17  (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18  Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19  And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21  And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22  And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23  Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24  But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


Blessings

Petro

If God caused men of old to prophecy, the Judas Iscariot, would deliver the Lord to be cruxified, hundreds of years before Judas was born, it was a settled fact Judas would be that traitor which would hand him, over.

Was it by chance he didn't break his leg, going down the stairs, on that mission the night he dleivered him to the jews, after eating the passover supper with Him, in the upper room?

Or was Jesus "delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," as written in Acts 2:23.??

[Petro]

The foreknowledge of God says that all and whosoever will
come to Christ are the saved and will take of the water of life freely. The "all" and "whosoever" that come to christ and obey God's word through Christ are the elect and predestined.
Elected and predestined because of obedience to God's will.

Revelation 22:17.  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Ollie,

You have already, You ignored my question, and gotten off the path, Foreknowledge is subject, in the discussion here.

My question is again,  Is foreknowledge to you, something that is acquired by God, because he sacanned the future to determine if Ollie, would choses Jesus, somtime during his life??

or,

Is the foreknowledge of God, one of foreknowing it bacuase be made the plan??  Without need to consult the furture.

The key verse to understanding this is Acts 2:23

In the light of scripture and what I have  given you;

Isa 46
9  Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Eph 1
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, paccording to the riches of his grace;
9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Phil 2
13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.








Can't go any further until this is cleared up..

Here is an example of what I am saying;

If I make plans to go fishing tomorrow with you,
 
DO,  I foreknow it because;

I looked into the crystal ball of the future, and realized I am supposed to go fishing tomorrow,

or is it because;

I planned it??

No one that comes to Chirst ever planned to come to Christ humanly speaking, why am I saying this, because God say;

Rom 3
  10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13  Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14  Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15  Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17  And the way of peace have they not known:
18  There is no fear of God before their eyes.
23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 5
12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jhn 8
34  Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[/b]

Rom 7
17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19  I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20  For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Eph 2
2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Jesus said no one can come to me unless the father draw him, and no one can know the father, but by the Son, neither can anyone know thre Son, but by the Father, and whoseever He wills.

Foreknowledge, has to do with election and predestination, those whom God called (the elect), He has predestinated to be confromed to the image of His Son

Rom 8
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Can you honestly say, that one who was dead in sin, came to, be a, whosoever, of his own will and volition, voluntarily??

Or, was it because God miraculeously worked in his life to bring him, to be that whosoever person.

Please see, if you can answer my first question,

Does,  God foreknow because He made his Gosple plan, without consulting the future, or Does He FOREKNOW, because he planned it  with no regard for consultation with the others  (this is to say man, to see what man does first, then makes his plans).


Blessings,


Petro

[ollie]

I have deleted my posts as you seem to think I have strayed from topic. I'll let you post for awhile and see if I can get the jist of what you are trying to say.

[pnotc]

Ollie-

Deleting your posts made this more than a little hard to understand for someone who didn't see them!  It looked like Petro was having one big conversation with himself.  But I'll give it a go Petro, old boy, just for fun.  

First, God did not "look down the corridor of time" to foresee what man would do.  God is outside of time, and if he has perfect knowledge, then there was never a time when he did not know what man would do.  Its a bit of a mind-bender, but you have God reacting as if at some moment he was enlightened, as if at one moment he didn't know what you or I would do, and the next moment he did.  This is quite impossible.  Time is a creation, just like the entire universe, and as such, it does not subject God to its requirements, God subjects it to his.  So I would have to say your initial questions are formed incorrectly since they seem to presuppose a linear development of knowledge in the mind of God.  

"1. Is God a mere spectator, or observer, or is He the one that made the plan, from beginning to end?"

This, of course, is a false question, both for the reasons above and what I shall develop next.  You assume a false duality that simply does not exist.  Your question implies that God merely observes or he acts without consulting his foreknowledge in any meaningful way.  Simply put, this is not so.  God can and does act, and he can and does sit back and observe.  How many times does the Bible say God gave people over to something?  I have always taken those verses to mean that God withdraws his guidance, that he simply lets man undertake his own foolish plans that bring about his own ruination.  So there are times when God acts or actively intervenes in human affairs and there are times when he pulls back and observes. Even in those latter times, however, he is still active in bringing about his plan, but it is to say that he lets the decisions of men run to their natural conclusions quite apart from his will for them.  

"The idea that it is given because of what someone might do or not do in the future, is simply not in accordance with the biblical definition of this word, rather the word teaches plainly that it is given to those He has chosen; or ELECTED"

Did you Bible come with a glossary?  I haven't heard of any ancient manuscript that came with a glossary, or even an index for that matter.  Of course, I'm joking, but the fact is, any translation is affected by the hermeneutics of the person doing the translating.  The word you refer to is given a variety of different translations by various dictionaries, all similar, but subtely different.  It is not entirely clear which dictionary actually has the first century usage of the word correct, and which are affected by their own theology as it influences their translation.  

The verses you take from John 16 are taken out of context.  You will have to show that Jesus was referring to all believers and not just his disciples to be able to use that as a normative statemetn for salvation.  So far, you haven't accomplished that.  

Gen 15 does not say that God declared Abram righteous as if that was something granted to him by God.  Abram's belief and submission were credited to him as righteous.  His obedience resulted in righteousness, not righteousness in his obedience (though clearly there is some circular relationship between obedience and righteousness).  You asked Ollie where God stated he foreknew Abram would obey.  The question is silly, since by his omniscience, God would clearly know that as part of his nature.  Of course, the question can always be turned around:  where do you read God didn't?  Of course, you contradict yourself where you post from Gen 18:

"Gen 18
19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

Clearly God did know Abram and clearly knew what he would do.  Notice the use of the future tense throughout the verse.  

"If God caused men of old to prophecy, the Judas Iscariot, would deliver the Lord to be cruxified, hundreds of years before Judas was born, it was a settled fact Judas would be that traitor which would hand him, over.
-
Was it by chance he didn't break his leg, going down the stairs, on that mission the night he dleivered him to the jews, after eating the passover supper with Him, in the upper room?"

Once again, you assume a false duality between action and inaction.  God can predeterminately (though it is only "pre" to us) act in anyway he sees fit, including prophesy (that which he will bring about), conditional prophesy (that which me may bring about) and giving us over to our own desires (that which he did bring about at all).  So, yes, Jesus was handed over according to the foreknowledge and forepurpose of God, but that statement cannot be taken as normative in every situation.  

I've probably given you enough to chew on for now.  Keep in mind when answering my points that there is no separation, temporally or otherwise, between God's knowledge and his decision to act. To put it in human terms, they are simultaneous, though that surely does not do it justice.

[ollie]

Pnotc.

I noticed that my posts were quoted in Petro's post. Perhaps that will help get the meaning. Sorry, But i didn't want to carry the thread away from the author's subject and thought maybe I was misunderstanding it.

Thanks for replying.
Take care,
Ollie

[Raphu]

His ways are higher than ours and much knowledge is privy only to the mind of God, I would suppose, as we are caught in a linear type of thinking; His not being bound by time. The thoughts of eternity must be higher than ours as we look through this glass darkly.