DO PEOPLE KEEP THE RIGHT TO FREE WILL, EVEN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLING IN THE

[Ted_Tar]

God even gave Lucifer, free will.  Surely if God wanted to, he could end the world of sin by taking away the devil's free will.  But God obviously promised never to tamper with free will.  Not his angels', mankinds' or even Lucifers'.

Our walk on earth is a testing ground to see if we will choose God over the Devil by our own free will.  God doesn't want robots to love Him.  For surely he could create such a scenario with His power.  But we wants every soul out there to want to be with Him because they choose to.

He first tried it with the Jews, but he realized that man was just too weak of the flesh.  So he intervened against the Devil by offering to mankind help through Jesus Christ.  To help us reach salvation, but only if we wanted to accept the help from Him.

Again, God does not want to violate free will.

This is the beauty of free will.

[Gracey]

God doesn't want robots to love Him.

I agree with you here.

But we wants every soul out there to want to be with Him because they choose to.

...because they choose to.... not because we are forced to. Yes.

Praise God!

Gracey

[michael_legna]

You have to remember there are those who deny man has a free will at all.  Calvin and Luther were two such men.

I am currently reading a book I would highly recommend to anyone who is interested in this issue.

It is "Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God: New Answers to Old Questions" by William Most  ISBN: 0-931888-66-2

But the topic is a tough slog, so don't expect to whip through it in an evening.

[Allinall]

God even gave Lucifer, free will.  Surely if God wanted to, he could end the world of sin by taking away the devil's free will.  But God obviously promised never to tamper with free will.  Not his angels', mankinds' or even Lucifers'.

Where did God promise to do this?  I do agree that man has been given the opportunity to make choices, either to obey God, or to disobey God (sin).  But I also think we tend to put to much into our concept of "free will."  So, where does God promise us not to tamper with our individual free will?  

[Ted_Tar]

It is obviously an implied promise based on the fact that He even lets the devil keep its own free will to do evil which damages the mankind he so deeply loves.  He allows the devil to tempt mankind freely and does not interfere with the devil's efforts.  But even the devil listens to God, for God told him that he could do what he wants except take Job's life.  This is proof that even the devil has to listen to what God wants.  Everyone knows God could put a stop to the devil at any point in time if he wanted to.  If you are looking for literal proof, I do not have it.  But implied proof, I already gave you.

[Ted_Tar]

You say we put too much emphasis on "free will".  But I tell you we do not put enough.  This is a basic fundamental concept.  It can change the interpretation of the bible when applied to many scriptures if you do not except that you have free will while you walk on the earth.

[Allinall]

It is obviously an implied promise based on the fact that He even lets the devil keep its own free will to do evil which damages the mankind he so deeply loves.  He allows the devil to tempt mankind freely and does not interfere with the devil's efforts.  But even the devil listens to God, for God told him that he could do what he wants except take Job's life.  This is proof that even the devil has to listen to what God wants.  Everyone knows God could put a stop to the devil at any point in time if he wanted to.  If you are looking for literal proof, I do not have it.  But implied proof, I already gave you.

So when we sin, who's fault is it?  The Devil's?  

[ollie]

When one makes the choice to obey Jesus Christ one relinquishes free will to the will of the Lord through this obedience. It is also through this obedience that one has the Holy Spirit.

 Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather than men."

Acts 5:32.  "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

[ollie]

We ought to doesn't mean we must.

Yes, "ought to", "rather than" suggests choice of whether ought to rather than ought not. If that isn't free will, what is? We are servants to whom we choose to obey and not servants to whom we choose to disobey.

[ollie]

Just because you decide to obey God doesn't mean you have to relinquish your right to free will.  We are not robots.  We decide to follow and obey God and each day decide to continue to follow him. For each day is a new day of temptation.  Instead of reading the bible to gain strength, I can decide to watch cartoons on TV.

On obedience to the Lord one relinquishes his will, but not free will, to do the will of the Lord, but still has the freedom to disobey or obey, sin or not sin, to live life accordingly or not accordingly.

[ollie]

The best analogy that I think exists about free will is the analogy of a parent/child relationship. As a parent i create an environment in which my children will take responsibility for their actions. They THINK they are acting freely when in reality, it is I as a parent who is creating the environment for him to do so. I can step in and change my child's options any time. Again, he THINKS he is making "free choices" when in reality, he is only responding to his least stressful option.That is how God treats us. He allows us the consequences of our behavior but has the perrogative to intervene whenever He wants or doesn't want to.  It's his sovereign choice according to his plan and according to what He wants us to learn by ourselves.  God is in COMPLETE control of the universe, all the while allowing us the lattitude to accept the responsibility for our actions SO THAT we will UNDERSTAND why we need Him. We can ONLY come to God when we understand why we need Him and that is different in each individual. Therefore, free will is an illusion but a NECESSARY illusion so that we can accept the responsibility for our behavior.  Jesus said; "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet i tell you that not one of them falls to the ground apart from the will of my father." God is the master of the universe and we are his children. And, like children, we don't think He knows what we are up to, but God guides us every step of the way. "For a man plans his course in his heart, but the Lord guides his steps."

I had no choice in the matter of who would be my parents and their will for me. However after birth , I could choose to obey or disobey them.
However I had a great deal of choice in choosing the way of the Lord. I did not have to come to Him. The power and Spirit of His word and its goodness and grace drew and called to me and influenced the choice. I felt no miraculous indwelling. The Holy Spirit is in me when I am obedient to Christ and His word.

My parents had me and raised me and I chose to obey and sometimes disobey their will until I became of age. Disobedience was punished and obedience was rewarded.

The analogy of physical parent and child does not seem to apply as one is not a child of God until being born again. One makes the choice to be born again into God's Spiritual realm.
One does not have a choice to be born into the physical realm.

Ollie

[ollie]

The absolute BEST way to explain this is that we ALL respond to what RULES US. "A man is a slave to whatever masters us." A battered woman may WANT to leave her husband, but she CANNOT leave her husband UNTIL her fear of her husband is STRONGER than her fear of being on her oww. An alcoholic may or smoker may WANT to quit but can ONLY quit when their fear of what it's doing to their lives is STRONGER than their desire to drink. That is EXACTLY why Paul said; "For that which i want to do, I cannot carry out."  A PERSON IS EITHER RULED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OR THE DEVIL. If we are ruled by the Holy Spirit, he will, little by little, bring us closer to Him. If he is ruled by the devil, the devil will bring us closer to him. NONE of us is bigger than either one of these. The bible siimply tells us which direction God wants us to go. As he changes our hearts, we will simply respond more from the Holy Spirit than the devil everyday. THAT IS HOW WE GROW IN CHRIST. It is NOT a choice, it is a RESPONSE. Only the Holy Spirit has victory over the devil inside of us!

Romans 6:13.  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
 14.  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
 15.  What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
 16.  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 17.  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
 18.  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

"Yield yourselves" and " ye have obeyed from the heart", seems to connotate individual choice in the matter.
Then verse 16 seems to relate the consequences of the choice. All having to do with obedience and whose servant one is to obey or disobey.

Ollie

[ollie]

THAT is my whole point, Michael, and the CRUX of the differences bewteen us. WE, I repeat, WE can beat NOTHING!!!! It is only the HOLY SPIRIT that can transform and change us, not we, ourselves! You come from thinking that the power of MEN is what changes us, NOT the power of the Holy spirit which is saying that WE, not only do not NEED Christ because we can change ourselves, but that WE are STRONGER than the Holy Spirit! Again, once the Holy Spirit enter is constantly at battle with the devil in us and the Holy Spirit WILL WIN! That's why Pauls said "For the good that i want to do, I cannot carry out." Only the HOLY SPIRIT can change us! That's why we NEED it! Again, "a man is a slave to whatever masters him." If a man is ruled by the devil he CANNOT, I repeat, CANNOT understand the things of the spirit. if a man is controlled by the spirit, then he will RESPOND out of the spirit. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." Your whole philosohpy puts faith in MEN, not GOD to change us. That is not only worshiping MEN, but demeaning the power of the Holy Spirit as well. Jesus says that they "honor me with their lips but their hearts are farr from me." ANYONE can call Jesus Lord but it's the MOTIVE inside them that shows what rules them. Some will call jesus lord because they were told to by their church or parents, or some other singicant other. Some will call him Lord out of fear. But His true sheep will call Him Lord because the Holy Spirit has changed their hearts so that the KNOW He is Lord! Again, a man can only understand what he understands. He cannot understand another languagewithout an interpreter! The interpreter of Christians is the HOLY SPIRIT WHIC IS WHY pAUL SAID; "a man WITHOUT the Spirit CANNOT accept the things that come from the spirit of God." A man MUST be born again of water and the spirit to have victory over death, Micahel. The Holy Spirit is the ONLY victory over death. We, mere mortals do not have that power.

Which comes first? The Holy Spirit and then obedience or obedience and then the Holy Spirit? The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit comes with obedience.

[Heidi]

Ollie,
Then you are contradicting Chris'ts words that "No one can come the me unless the father who sent me draws him." Do you believe that you can come to God if he is not drawing you? Again, who do you think is more powerful? God or yourself?

Do you think the German people in Nazi Germany had a choice to believe the Jews were good people? If so, why? who would have told them? what reason would they believe that the Jews were good if they've been told all their lives they were not? Just a guess? How is that free will? Do you believe it is just a coincidence that only the ones to whom Jesus has revealed himself understand His words? What do you think he means when he said, "the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given to you" and not those on the outside? Do you again think it's just a coincidence that those to whom Jesus gives the Holy Spirit believe Him those to whom He has not given it don't? Jesus said; "but I have chosen you out of the world." "You didn't choose me, I chose you." Do you not believe Him? Do you not believe that "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him?" Who do you think GIVES us the POWER to believe? How can a person understand what he does not understand?

[ollie]

So Oillie, if Jesus had CHOSEN to disobey God, then God would have been wrong in giving Jesus the power to do His will, would He not?

Jesus considered having the cup of His task taken away but then He made the choice. Thy will be done not mine.

 

I guess that God is really fallible instead of infallible. His power had NOTHING tp do with Jesus's decisions. Jesus's HUMAN nature was simply stronger than God's power in Him.  I guess that makes Jesus wrong too when he said; "I can do nothing without my Father."  Wonders never cease.

Forgive me for saying so. This is nonsense.
This seems like unintelligable gobbledegook to me.
You seem to look at God in Human terms instead of His.
You appear to have an individual humanistic take on God's word instead of what it actually says.

Ollie