DO PEOPLE KEEP THE RIGHT TO FREE WILL, EVEN WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT DWELLING IN THE

[ollie]

So you all are saying that our free will is stonger than the Holy Spirit? Here I put my faith in the Holy Spirit to save me. Boy was i wrong to trust God.  It's MY POWER that decides my fate, not God's will. Well then we better hope and pray that everything just happens to work out according to God's plan so that Revelations won't be wrong. Afterall, the people who wrote the bible are just guessing that people will do what God says they will do. Afterall, we humans have the power to muck up God's plan! It's juts a crap shoot, I guess. God must be sitting on His throne, sweating out our decisions so that He will know what's going to happen. Poor Guy.

No. It is God's word that has the power to call us to Him. Upon obedience to His word our spirit is unified with His
Spirt and it dwells in us through obedience to His word.

[Sower]

Just because you decide to obey God doesn't mean you have to relinquish your right to free will.

Ted:

While I agree with much of what you are saying, the will of man is not so much a "right" as it is (1) a capability to make moral choices, (2) and the responsibility to make the right choices.

In democracies we have what are known as "rights" and also corresponding "responsibilities". However, in a theocracy -- the Kingdom of God -- we have "gifts" of grace and "responsibilities". Therein lies a world of difference.

So "free will" is not a right, since rights can be demanded, and nothing can be demanded from God. Man's "free will" [as commonly stated, but not actually found in Scripture other than for "freewill offerings"] is a GIFT, but it carries a huge responsibility:

1. The responsibility for all men now to repent according to God's commandment (Acts 17:30) and believe the Gospel, and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. The responsibility for all Christians to make their own wills subject to God's will, just as the Man Christ Jesus did --"Father, not my will but thine be done" (Lk. 22:42).

3. The responsibility for all Christians to pray and to work so that God's Kingdom be established on this earth and God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven (Mt. 6:10).

SO WHEN WE SUBJECT OUR WILLS TO GOD'S WILL, WE IN FACT RELINQUISH OUR PRIVILEGE [NOT RIGHT] TO EXERCISE OUR WILLS INDEPENDENTLY OF GOD'S WILL. THIS IS TRUE FREEDOM.

[ollie]

Ollie,
Then you are contradicting Chris'ts words that "No one can come the me unless the father who sent me draws him." Do you believe that you can come to God if he is not drawing you? Again, who do you think is more powerful? God or yourself?

Do you think the German people in Nazi Germany had a choice to believe the Jews were good people? If so, why? who would have told them? what reason would they believe that the Jews were good if they've been told all their lives they were not? Just a guess? How is that free will? Do you believe it is just a coincidence that only the ones to whom Jesus has revealed himself understand His words? What do you think he means when he said, "the secrets of the kingdom of heaven have been given to you" and not those on the outside? Do you again think it's just a coincidence that those to whom Jesus gives the Holy Spirit believe Him those to whom He has not given it don't? Jesus said; "but I have chosen you out of the world." "You didn't choose me, I chose you." Do you not believe Him? Do you not believe that "No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him?" Who do you think GIVES us the POWER to believe? How can a person understand what he does not understand?

Heidi says:
"Then you are contradicting Chris'ts words that "No one can come the me unless the father who sent me draws him." Do you believe that you can come to God if he is not drawing you? Again, who do you think is more powerful? God or yourself? '

SIGH!



Quote from Ollie reply # 37:

"However I had a great deal of choice in choosing the way of the Lord. I did not have to come to Him. The power and Spirit of His word and its goodness and grace drew and called to me and influenced the choice. I felt no miraculous indwelling. The Holy Spirit is in me when I am obedient to Christ and His word."

In answer to your question.

You seem to be replying without reading previous posts. You ask a question in reply #40 and I have already answered such in reply #37.

Take care,
Ollie

[Heidi]

So, if we can make our own choices, then why in the heck are we not all perfect? Why does Paul say; "for what I WANT to do, I CANNOT carry out"? He of course is lying, because the rest of you are saying that he CAN carry it out, he just doesn't WANT TO! If only he had listened to you guys, he wouldn't have MADE such a statement? Do you guys even think?

HEAR WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS! Don't MAKE UP what you think it says! Paul said that he CANNOT carry it out for is it SIN living in ALL of us. Please DECIDE not have envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, gluttony, or greed. Please sell everything and give to the poor, NEVER lie, steal, hate, get angry, covet your neighbor's ANYTHING! And above all, UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING Christ said! Afterall, it's your CHOICE to UNDERSTAND Him. It's your choice to UNDERSTAND calculus, ALL of science, ALL languages, so why don't you do it? The fact that you are not perfect is NO excuse! It's YOUR FAULT if you don't understand these things! Why, we don't even NEED Christ to forgive us because we have the power to be perfect on our own! Who in the heck do you think CHANGES the way we look at things? US? Paul "suddenly" became intelligen after he met Christ because of HIS OWN FREE WILL! What an AMAZING coincidence! PAUL gets the credit for his understanding and intelligence, NOT the Holy Spirit! Again, the Holy Spirit is NOT as powerful as Paul's intelligence!  Never mind that He said that God blinds the eyes of those he wants to harden. Again, who is little bitty God that we can't OVER RIDE his Power? If he has BLINDED someone, they can still see because it's THEIR choice NOT to see, NOT God's. His blinders are really meaningless because our FREE WILL is again, MUCH stronger than the Holy Spirit and the devil. MY what power we human beings have! Our omnipotence is amazing, we just don't WANT to use it. In your dreams.  Your dreams of glory are merely dreams. Sorry. The ONLY way we are perfect before God is Christ's death on the cross. HE gets the credit for the change in our hearts, NOT OUR GLORIOUS SELVES! Those who worship themselves can give the credit for salvation to themselves. Those who worship God give Him total and COMPLETE credit to God for everything in their lives. That is truly putting their lives in God's hands, instead of their own. That is complete and total submission that ONLY comes from the Holy Spirit, not our glorious selves. Jesus who was the most perfect man whoever lived tooK NO credit HIMSELF for everything good in Him but gave it ALL to God. He KNOWS that it is God's power and GOD'S WILL that ENABLED Him to be who He was! He worshipped and honored His FATHER ABOVE ALL ELSE, INCLUDING HIMSELF! Since He HUMBLED Himself more than the rest of us, He will CLEARLY be exalted above all men! We can learn A LOT from him, if we believe His words!

[Heidi]

I think one of the biggest reasons you guys believe you have free will is because you think that the thoughts that are inside your head are coming from you! You do not realize that GOD hardens hearts or has mercy on hearts. What do you think that means? "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." If our hearts are not coming from the SPIRIT, they are coming from the desires of the flesh which comes from the DEVIL. Once the holy Spirit enters us it changes our hearts to give us a LOVE for God, not a love for our flesh. We cannot do this on our own! We cannot DECIDE to not love the desires of the flesh. If we could, we wouldn't NEED the Holy Spirit to change our hearts! The Jews tried to love God all throughout the OT but the sin living in them was stronger. ONLY when God gives us the Holy Spiirt do we have the power to reap the FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT. Hitler truly BELIEVED he was right! He didn't KNOW God so he couldn't understand the things of the spirit! If God were calling him, you better believe Hitler's heart would have been changed! But all Hitler could understand was the desires of the flesh which came from the devil. The devil DECEIVES us. NONE of us is above the Holy Spirit or the devil which are the two biggest powers operating in the world and NONE of us human beings is bigger than either one! That is precisely why we Christians ask GOD to overcome the devil inside of us FOR us BECAUSE WE cannot DO IT BY OURSELVES! But those who are not being drawn by God CANNOT ask God for that power because they don't UNDERSTAND or KNOW God. They think He's made-up, a fairy tale. They really BELIEVE this! It's not a choice! How can we 'DECIDE' to believe the grass is green if we see it as purple? None of us ANY choice to believe what we do not understand!

[sojourner]

Heidi,

I think one of the biggest reasons you guys believe you have free will is because you think that the thoughts that are inside your head are coming from you!

Your interpretation has a lot difficulties in reconciling both Scripture, nature of man, and theology.

For me I have a will because I was created with it. It is the very essence of who I am as a person. Part of my personhood as it is of any other human being.

You couldn't give up your will if you even wanted to do so. It is the essence of your humanness. You also do not understand how our wills operate. The decisions and choices one makes is entirely yours personally. They cannot be given to anyone else, including the Holy Spirit or the devil.  However that does not say anything concerning any kind of forces that bear upon that will. Theologically under your understanding, man is no longer man and accountable. He becomes a robot operating at the whims of the devil or the Holy Spirit. Michael has already pointed out to you that the Holy Spirit in several examples in the Bible lost out to the devil.  Your understanding also makes the Holy Spirit an active agent of the devil and would be the author of your sin in your life.
Now, you may also believe that you no longer sin, have no sin in your life, then maybe I could see that the Holy Spirit is directing, orchestrating your life for you. But that is not scriptural either.
Heidi, you have to see the total illogical ramifications of such an understanding, if you are claiming it to be scriptural as originally given and taught.

Again, the rest of this post containing the quote above is saying absolutely nothing meaningful. It is again your words being put in other peoples mouths to say what they never stated and in my case what I actually believe.
If you are unsure of what someone meant, ask for clarification. Don't interject your assumptions or interpretations upon their words.

You have made some other statements that you may believe and it may be your interpretation of certain texts but they do not align with what has always been taught and believed about those same texts.  If that is what you believe, that is your choice, your will being excercised, but you cannot claim that it is what the Bible has always taught. If so, I have yet to see any verification, historicity of that belief from the beginning.
I would have my doubts that you could get beyond your own personal interpretation.

[Heidi]

Sojourner,
You have a lot to learn. I thought the way you did for most of my life. I wanted to believe the bible but COULD NOT. It made no sense to me. Then when i was born again of the Spirit, instantly, I kew that every word in the bible was the truth. FREE WILL? Hardly. Paul did NOT wake up one day and DECIDE TO believe. BELIEF IS A GIFT FROM GOD, SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST. You boast about your ability to believe because you think it comes from you! You couldn't be farther from the truth.

I was just watching the movie "Sargeant York" where the exact same thing happened to him. He had wanted to believe but could not until he was born again of the Holy Sprit. Then he knew that every word in the bible was the truth. The same thing happened to Paul, Peter, and the rest of the apostles. Read your bible to understand what it means to be born from above. Then you will understand what Jesus means by "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." AND, "Unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven." And "A man WITHOUT THE SPIRIT cannot accept the things that come from God..." AND  "but the mind controlled by the spirit is life and peace." I can always spot the born again believers from the "Christians" who "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me" because they give credit to their ability to believe to their OWN FREE WILL, instead of to the spirit of God. Boasting is alive and well in you, sojourner.

[Sower]

Sower,

SO WHEN WE SUBJECT OUR WILLS TO GOD'S WILL, WE IN FACT RELINQUISH OUR PRIVILEGE [NOT RIGHT] TO EXERCISE OUR WILLS INDEPENDENTLY OF GOD'S WILL. THIS IS TRUE FREEDOM.

Theologically this could not happen. It is true we subject our wills to Gods. A better word would probably by align with Gods. But man is never lost into God's will. We don't lose our essence of nature when we exercise our will. It is in fact indepentent of God's will. It is our responsibility to align it and keep it there. That is what we will account for in the end. That is true freedom. We don't relinquish anything. Our wills are neither a privilege nor a right. In this case we could not, even if we wanted to. It is our created nature, the essence of man, It is part of our created image of God.

Sojourner:

You're just rambling without taking the time to digest what was posted.

"Our wills are neither a privilege nor a right". You seem to forget that to be created in God's image and likeness is indeed a privilege.  Ask any other creature, if you can communicate with them. You have misunderstood the import of what I said altogether.

"Theologically this could not happen". Really? Where do you get this? What were the first word's our of the mouth of Saul the persecutor of the Church? "Lord, WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO?" (Acts 9:6).  That's exactly what I'm talking about. From doing his own will as Saul, we see Paul doing Christ's will within days of his conversion. This has nothing to do with losing our essential natures, and everything to do with loving God above ourselves.

[Sower]

So, if we can make our own choices, then why in the heck are we not all perfect?

You have it backwards.  It is precisely BECAUSE we can still make our choices, that we often make the wrong choices, and also sin repeatedly.

If according to your theory, men had no free will, then God would make all the choices, and every choice would be perfect.

It is because of the freedom of our wills that we have constant exhortations in Scripture to "MORTIFY THE FLESH" and "WALK ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT".

[Heidi]

So Sower, when Paul said: "For the good that i WANT to do I CANNOT carry out" what he really meant was; "for the good that I CAN do, i don't WANT to carry out"? Why do you twist his words 360 degrees?

[michael_legna]

So Sower, when Paul said: "For the good that i WANT to do I CANNOT carry out" what he really meant was; "for the good that I CAN do, i don't WANT to carry out"? Why do you twist his words 360 degrees?

Paul is talking about the inner battle that goes on between our two natures.  We are still flesh even when we accept the spirit, we still sin even after we accept Jesus as our Lord.  You want to make it out as if when we are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit that He takes over the driving and everything from then on is due to Him not us.  If that were true then we would not sin after we accepted Jesus, but John tells us that if we claim that we are liars.

1 John 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[sojourner]

Sower,

"Our wills are neither a privilege nor a right". You seem to forget that to be created in God's image and likeness is indeed a privilege.  Ask any other creature, if you can communicate with them. You have misunderstood the import of what I said altogether.

"Theologically this could not happen". Really? Where do you get this? What were the first word's our of the mouth of Saul the persecutor of the Church? "Lord, WHAT WILT THOU HAVE ME TO DO?" (Acts 9:6).  That's exactly what I'm talking about. From doing his own will as Saul, we see Paul doing Christ's will within days of his conversion. This has nothing to do with losing our essential natures, and everything to do with loving God above

I don't doubt you understand the differences but your language to describe it is not very precise.
Being created the way we are I would not call a priviledge. It just is the way it is.  You wouldn't feel any differently if you were an animal or had no will.

Again, your wording seems to say that Paul lost his will. That it was Christ's will. More precise is that Paul's will was aligned with Christ's will. They are not the same will. No matter which way he chose, it is his will that is being active, not Christ's will.
Now, if you are saying that it is Christ's will that Paul should answer the way he did, that is true. After being led the way he was and asking why he was kicking against the goads.
His will is being persuaded, those are the forces that moves us in our choices. But the choices and wills are our own.
Saying it any other way puts either God, the Holy Spirit or Christ actually doing or making the choices for us. That makes us robots and not accountable.

[Heidi]

You have very little faith that the Holy Spirit can change a person, sojourner, but TREMENDOUS faith in YOUR OWN power to change yourself! Pride definitely comes from the devil, Sojourner, and you are riddled with it. The more you try to change yourself, the more pride you will accumulate because you are taking credit for your good works and ability to believe. "Jesus said; "I can do nothing without my Father." You not only do not believe him, but you only look foolish when you disagree with him.  I feel sorry for you. But Jesus said; "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." You also disagree with him there too. Jesus's words will pass never pass away, but yours will in a heartbeat! Until you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, they can NEVER be taken away.  You will continue to be trapped in your pride forever. Only His death can take away your sins, not you yourself. JESUS gets the credit for taking away your sins, NOT you. Until you understand that, you have nothing wise to say.

[sojourner]

Heidi,

Until you ask Jesus for forgiveness for your sins, they can NEVER be taken away.

Only His death can take away your sins, not you yourself. JESUS gets the credit for taking away your sins, NOT you. Until you understand that, you have nothing wise to say.

Your two quotes actuallyt contradict each other. Do you see that.
Jesus died for the sins of the world. It is sufficient to cover every person who ever lived.
Yet, you state correctly in the first quote, that no sins will or can be forgiven unless (we) each believer repents and asks for forgiveness - daily, continually. Once again, your idea of no will or that the Christian must not or cannot do any work belies your quoting of texts and scripture. I am not saved until I do the requesting. That is a decision of my will.
It is what I will be held accountable for.
Not all the gibberish that you state above.
What that does not speak to is the work of the Holy Spirit either internally in the believer, or externally upon all men to convict, to lead, to bring mankind to individual salvation. That is all made possible by the Work of Christ on the Cross.  It makes man the active agent.
You have a misunderstanding of what Christ actually did, what man must do and what kind of cooperation is involved. You constantly infer that it is only I that is doing all of this. That again is your blatant disregard in trying to understand what someone is actually saying. You look at everything within your paradigm with blinders on and reinterpret what someone says to fit your view.

In all the discussion I have had with you, you have never acknowledged any understanding of what I am saying. You have done the same with Michael.

What you have also not ever done is confirm that what you believe or what you are saying was ever taught from the beginning. If it is faith once given you have two thousand years of history in which to confirm it. Yet you stick to your personal interpretation.

In that same Bible, at least I assume so though at times it seems strange that you could be using the same one, says quite clearly that Christ will abide with His Church until the end. That the Holy Spirit will be given to give to that Church, the Apostles, all Truth and will abide, instruct, preserve that Truth until the end.  I Tim 3:15, Eph 1:10, Matt 28:20, Matt 16:18, Eph 2:20` You believe in Jesus's words, right, then you have 2000 years of history of believers who lived that preserved Truth.
Did they live it as you are stating it or as I have explained it? Now, granted, my explanation may be faulty but at least it can be backed up and verified by many since the beginning.
How about yours?

[Heidi]

And YOU don't understand, Sojourner, just who GIVES you the ability to ask for forgivenss. The devil? Your wonderful perfect nature? Sorry, Sojourner, but it is God who is giving you that power. Again; "No one can come the me unless the Father who sen me draws him." Since you don't understand how God draws us and how HE CAHNGES our hearts, you will then think that it's YOU YOURSELF who comes to God. In your dreams. Please refer to my last post on losing salvation and you will see why the catholics give themselves the credit for their belief instead of to the power of the Holy Spirit.