Calvinism/Arminianism

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

Well...I justed wanted to see where people stand on Calvinism and Arminianism around here...feel free to post and explain your veiws...
 God bless!

[Reba]

H&F,

 I have been labeled a Calvinist. Labeled before i know what the word meant I thought the  word calvin had to do with Calvery....

I accept the label  and the bibical teaching. What I come against is rhetoric of the anti-Arminian.  I come from 4 generations of Christians and in that, 3 generations of pastors.  I have never met a man more Christlike then my Assemblies of God pastor, who was also my Dad.

 When I hear Calvinist spouting Billy Graham is a heretic, I ask what is heretical about telling the lost Jesus died for them? So BG uses the term ‘come to Jesus’  Jesus said ‘come follow Me’.

[Hands and Feet of Jesus]

I agree with you...I'm a Calvinist, all the way, but most of my best friends are arminians...we have debates and argue about stuff, but we all accept the fact that we're all Christians...I can't stand it when people say "Arminians aren't Christains" or "Calvinists aren't Christians."  I love Calvinism and enjoy debating it... when it gets to the point that people start doubting if the other side is really Christian...that's going to far.

[Chuck]

Hello, "Hands and Feet of Jesus" and Reba.  Like you, I'm a five-point Calvinist.  

Romans 3:10-11 (KJV) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

John 6:37-44 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out... No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him".

Romans 8:28-30  "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will".

Acts 13:48 "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

It's so comforting to know that God loves me too much to even let me choose Hell, even though I totally deserve it.  But, I agree with both of you.  I would never call Billy Graham a heretic.  Arminians are just as much brothers and sisters in Christ as Calvinists are.  But, I believe "Calvinism" is the Gospel in its fullest sense.  Salvation, from start to finish, is entirely the work of God.  

May Our Sovereign Lord Bless You,
Chuck

[Reba]

Hey Chuck welcome to CU.

The calvinist label as far as i am conserend is only to make the under current of my posts known to the other folks. I have not studied his writings nor will i. I have read the one paragraph bio in the encyopedia. Odd how the label fits  

Raised in arminism fearfull of not measuring up , i can only shout with joy at the knowlege that HE is soverign. Sovereign in my salvation wow! I like you diserve hell ....

His words... your post  a pleasure to read Chuck  Thanks!

[Raphu]

Well, as usual, I hit the 1%. I believe that predestination and freewill are both true and they only become untrue when we put ourselves in God's perspective. He is in eternity and sees the whole picture from beginning to end....we don't. From our end, it's free will, from His, He can use evil to bring about good because He already know that they have chosen wickedness and He see it in them from the womb. HOw does He know this..?...well He is God.
I used to be full Calvinist until I saw a plain choice given in the garden, and I began to understand why God had created evil. Without evil as a defining contrast, God's power and glory would never be known to His creation.

Ro 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[JudgeNot]

Raphu said:

I began to understand why God had created evil.

God did NOT create evil.
God defined evil.
God created freewill.  God expelled Satan from His presence.  Satan is the father of evil.  Not God!
The scripture you present

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

is better translated to say "...created disaster".  To me - it is a totally different thing.

Saying God "created evil" is the same as saying "God can lie" - which is impossible.  

Please show me more scripture to back up your theory, and please check the translation you are reading with other, more accurate translations.

Yours in the Lord,
JN

[blainefabin]

Raphu said:

I began to understand why God had created evil.

God did NOT create evil.
God defined evil.
God created freewill.  God expelled Satan from His presence.  Satan is the father of evil.  Not God!
The scripture you present

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

is better translated to say "...created disaster".  To me - it is a totally different thing.

Saying God "created evil" is the same as saying "God can lie" - which is impossible.  

Please show me more scripture to back up your theory, and please check the translation you are reading with other, more accurate translations.

Yours in the Lord,
JN

there are several meanings of the word evil... in this verse it is not talking about moral evil but rather metephysical.... in this sense the very construct of the universe has evil in it. a thunderstorm, decay of energy, falling and scraping a knee.. none of these are the design of the enemy or our own immoral leanings, and all of these would have happened in eden if we really had a freewill before "death" entered the world.

as for the initial question.. i am not a calvanist or arminian... i believe in predestination as well as freewill and these concepts were around long before either of  john calvin or jacobus arminius. i am a paradoxicalist.... if there is such a thing.

mike

[Reba]

How ever we read the verse it says God created evil i have yet to read a verse that says God created freewill. Any one know of one? My 'search' did not bring one up..

[Sower]

How ever we read the verse it says God created evil i have yet to read a verse that says God created freewill. Any one know of one? My 'search' did not bring one up..

That's because you were not looking in the right place! Let's go back to Genesis 1:26,27; 2:7: "And God said, Let us make man IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS... So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them... And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul".

What does it mean to be created in the image and likeness of God? This "living soul" was like God in the following ways:

1. As God is sovereign over His own universe, He made man to be "sovereign" -- under Him -- over all created things "and let them have dominion" (Gen. 1:26,28).

2. As God is perfect, He made His entire creation -- including man -- "very good" or perfect (Gen. 1:31).

3. As God delights in His creation, He gave man a "Garden of Delights" (Eden) to enjoy, but more importantly, to enjoy fellowship with the Creator, who walked in the Garden to commune with man (Gen. 3:.

4. As God delights in faithfulness, He gave man stewardship over His creation and His Garden: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to dress it and to keep it" (Gen. 2:15).

3. As God has a heart, a mind and a will, God gave the same to mankind, and made him morally responsible and accountable for his choices: "And the LORD God commanded the man [which means that man can understand God's commands and obey them], saying, Of every tree of the garden THOU MAYEST FREELY EAT [free will, free choice for man]: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it [one single test of love and obedience for man in a Garden of Delights]: for in the day that thou eatest thereof [the potential and the possibility of disobeying God by exercising his free will] thou shalt surely die [the consequence of disobedience, which is transgression, rebellion and sin]" (Gen. 2:16,17).

That this free will did not disappear after the Fall is clear from the record of Cain [who freely chose his own way] and Abel [who freely chose God's way]: "And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? IF THOU DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED? and if thou does not well, sin lieth at the door.  And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, BY WHICH HE OBTAINED WITNESS THAT HE WAS RIGHTEOUS... (Gen. 4:4-7; Heb. 11:4). Abel chose to believe God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Cain chose to disbelieve God, and was under the curse.

Nothing has changed since the Fall. There are those who choose to believe the Gospel and those who choose to disbelieve it: "He came unto His own, and his own received Him not.  But as many as received Him, to them gave He power ot become the sons of God, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME..." (Jn. 1:11-13).

That is why Scripture says: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE... but as for me an my house, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:15).  This choice is place before every sinner every day. This choice is also placed before every believer who either chooses to walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16-26).
 

[blainefabin]

How ever we read the verse it says God created evil i have yet to read a verse that says God created freewill. Any one know of one? My 'search' did not bring one up..

actually it doesn't... depending on the way evil is meant (moral, natural, or metaphysical) it can mean a lot of different things. kind of like the word day in genesis 1.. it can mean that the earth was created in 6 12 hour periods, 6 24 hour periods, or 6 undetermined lengths of time possible millions or billions of years.

as for the word freewill not being found in the bible... try reading it rather than do word searches..

mike

[Reba]

How ever we read the verse it says God created evil i have yet to read a verse that says God created freewill. Any one know of one? My 'search' did not bring one up..

actually it doesn't... depending on the way evil is meant (moral, natural, or metaphysical) it can mean a lot of different things. kind of like the word day in genesis 1.. it can mean that the earth was created in 6 12 hour periods, 6 24 hour periods, or 6 undetermined lengths of time possible millions or billions of years.

as for the word freewill not being found in the bible... try reading it rather than do word searches..

mike

H7451
רעה    רע
ra‛  râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
H7489
רעע
râ‛a‛
raw-ah'
A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for nothing, that is, bad (physically, socially or morally). (associate selves and show self friendly are by mistake for H7462.): - afflict, associate selves [by mistake for H7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly [by mistake for H7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.


as far as the word  'day' from gen 1 well God gives us a 'time frame'    So  is dont see a million years there....


 Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Mike,  Maybe you did not understand me.   "How ever we read the verse it says God created evil"  Simpely read the words. The verse quoted says God created the evil. If you read the word evil to mean "ugly evil" or clamity which ever the verse says God created it.  I did not say the word freewill was not in scripture..

 Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

[blainefabin]

as far as the word  'day' from gen 1 well God gives us a 'time frame'    So  is dont see a million years there....


 Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

this is matter for another thread.. i was just making the example that depending on the usage a word can have various meaning.

Mike,  Maybe you did not understand me.   "How ever we read the verse it says God created evil"  Simpely read the words. The verse quoted says God created the evil. If you read the word evil to mean "ugly evil" or clamity which ever the verse says God created it.  I did not say the word freewill was not in scripture..

 Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

i may have misunderstood you...
i am not disputing the fact that it says god created evil, but rather what that word means... for instance if god created evil =calamity, entropy, the chaos that must exist in a freewill habitat, that is one thing, to claim that evil in this case is meant as a moral evil, "God created murder, or God caused the holocaust, or God causes satanic ritual abuse" is an entirely different matter. again it is important to define what a word means and in what sense it is to be taken. God is love could mean that God is sex, agape, affection, friendship, desire... depending on the way we mean love..



mike

[Left Coast]

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I view this to mean God has created judgment.
He is in control. He chooses who he is going to save, the rest will be judged.
It will be a sore, grievous, noisome, sad, day of affliction.

The word ra and it’s feminine form ra‘ah has been translated in these ways and more, but usually it is translated evil, 442 times in the King James.

evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34; 663

It does not mean God created sin.
I am also labeled a Calvinist, like Reba I haven’t spent much time studying his works. I have read a little.
I doubt if I agree with everything he says, he was only a man.
I do believe man has freewill, but man would never use that freewill to choose God. We can’t, we are spiritually dead.
Man will be judged by the free choices he makes, I don’t see how judgment can be just if it is not because of our choices. And the bible indicates hell has greater punishment for some than for others.

Matthew 23:14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

But the dead can’t choose life.

[JudgeNot]

Isaiah 45:7

(NIV)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.

(NASB)
The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity;  I am the LORD who does all these.

(AMP)
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

(KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(NKJV)
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

(NLT)
I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.