Needed, (by some), Additions to the Good News of Christ.

[ollie]

Mary the mother of God?

God sent Christ Jesus to die for us and be intermediary between God and HIs people. The cup he drank should be all sufficient for all men for all time.

The Pope as head of the church on earth?

God made Christ Jesus to be the head of His church on earth.

Raising people up to be special saints?

God sent Jesus Christ to shed His blood through which all who are called by His gospel are sanctified and holy, called to be saints.

The catechism?

God sent Jesus and through the Holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ, to inspired men, scripture of God was given and God's scripture or word is all that is necessary for the man of God to stand approved.

Man has added many things and ordinances to the word of God and His son Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??

[sincereheart]

*applauds*

 


And as an extra.... why is Mary considered a perpetual virgin if she was married and Jesus had siblings? And why is Mary considered sinless?  

[Sower]

 And as an extra.... why is Mary considered a perpetual virgin if she was married and Jesus had siblings? And why is Mary considered sinless?  

In one word, the reason for the Dogmas of Mary are that she has been deliberately made to usurp the place of the Son of God. Here is a brief glimpse into the teachings regarding Mary, from "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, who did his research very thoroughly:

'The Roman Church maintains that it was not so much the seed of the woman, as the woman herself, that was to bruise the head of the serpent. In defiance of all grammar, she renders the Divine denunciation against the serpent thus: "She shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise her heel." The same was held by the ancient Babylonians, and symbolically represented in their temples. In the uppermost story of the tower of Babel, or temple of Belus, Diodorus Siculus tells us there stood three images of the great divinities of Babylon; and one of these was of a woman grasping a serpent's head. Among the Greeks the same thing was symbolised; for Diana, whose real character was originally the same as that of the great Babylonian goddess, was represented as bearing in one of her hands a serpent deprived of its head. As time wore away, and the facts of Semiramis' history became obscured, her son's birth was boldly declared to be miraculous: and therefore she was called "Alma Mater," * "the Virgin Mother." '

[ebia]

Mary the mother of God?

Just which bit of:
Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Therefore Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
do you have a problem with?

Raising people up to be special saints?

What's wrong with recognising that certain people did & do a better than average job of following Christ?  Don't we all do that, even if you don't use the word saint?

God sent Jesus Christ to shed His blood through which all who are called by His gospel are sanctified and holy, called to be saints.

All who are saved are saints.   Those that are declared saints are those whom it can be seen were clearly saved.  The church accepts that the vast majority of saints will never be recognised in this world.

The catechism?

You've got a problem with statements of belief?

God sent Jesus and through the Holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ, to inspired men, scripture of God was given and God's scripture or word is all that is necessary for the man of God to stand approved.

The catechism is nothing more than a document to help understand what the bible and the teachings of the church are.

On the other hand, try these for non-biblical additions:
1. Sola Scriptura
2. Biblical inerrancy in matters not concerning faith
3. The idea that God only speaks through the bible, and never through his followers or the Church

And as an extra.... why is Mary considered a perpetual virgin if she was married and Jesus had siblings? And why is Mary considered sinless?  

Tradition has it (based on very early writings that were not included in the bible largely on the basis that they were not suitable for reading in church) that Joseph was an old man, a widower, who died shortly after the events described in at the end of Luke 2.   Jesus "siblings" were either cousins or children of Joseph's first mariage.

[ollie]

Mary the mother of God?

Just which bit of:
Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Therefore Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
do you have a problem with?

No, just the Roman paganisms added to and associated with her and her being set up equal with Jesus as an intermediary for God's people to God.. The use of Mary in the Roman Church's way is blasphemous to say the least and false teachings.

Raising people up to be special saints?

What's wrong with recognising that certain people did & do a better than average job of following Christ?  Don't we all do that, even if you don't use the word saint?

Do you not realize all God's people are saints and God does not recognize one as being more sanctified than another. He is not a respector of persons. Christ's blood sanctifies every one called to him with no specialties of the individual noted except His sins are gone and is quickened to life in God.

God sent Jesus Christ to shed His blood through which all who are called by His gospel are sanctified and holy, called to be saints.

All who are saved are saints.   Those that are declared saints are those whom it can be seen were clearly saved.  The church accepts that the vast majority of saints will never be recognised in this world.

One does not heed the call of God to be holy in Christ for personal recognition as a saint. It is not the church that makes saints but the word of God through faith in/on Jesus Christ. The church are the faithful called to be saints in Christ by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The catechism?

You've got a problem with statements of belief?

The only statement that must be made according to God's word is confession with the heart that Jesus is the son of God.
No words of uninspired men.

God sent Jesus and through the Holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ, to inspired men, scripture of God was given and God's scripture or word is all that is necessary for the man of God to stand approved.

The catechism is nothing more than a document to help understand what the bible and the teachings of the church are.

A repacement for the Holy Spirit??
The teaching of the church should be the BIble, so isn't catechism redundant?
  No it is not as it guides the Bible student into the ways of Rome fitting the Bible to suit its ways and her agenda instead of God's will.
An unecessary document as the bible was given to men to be understood.

On the other hand, try these for non-biblical additions:
1. Sola Scriptura
2. Biblical inerrancy in matters not concerning faith
3. The idea that God only speaks through the bible, and never through his followers or the Church

And as an extra.... why is Mary considered a perpetual virgin if she was married and Jesus had siblings? And why is Mary considered sinless?  

Tradition has it (based on very early writings that were not included in the bible largely on the basis that they were not suitable for reading in church) that Joseph was an old man, a widower, who died shortly after the events described in at the end of Luke 2.   Jesus "siblings" were either cousins or children of Joseph's first mariage.

I did not write this.

But as an extra:
Jesus had siblings born to Mary.
God gave us Jesus the Christ through Mary and she like Peter would probably say to Rome "Satan get thee hence" for adulterating my Heavenly Father's word by putting me up on a pedestal that God did not assign to me."


You did not answer the question and the reason for the thread.

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God?? "

[ebia]

No, just the Roman paganisms added to and associated with her and her being set up equal with Jesus as an intermediary for God's people to God.. The use of Mary in the Roman Church's way is blasphemous to say the least and false teachings.

So you don't actually have any objection to calling Mary the mother of God then?

Do you not realize all God's people are saints and God does not recognize one as being more sanctified than another. He is not a respector of persons. Christ's blood sanctifies every one called to him with no specialties of the individual noted except His sins are gone and is quickened to life in God.

Thats all the saints are.  Canonisation is just the process of saying "look, we can see from this guy's life that he was a true man of God, and therefore a saint".  It doesn't mean you, I or anyone else isn't a saint, just that it isn't obvious either way to an outside observer with absolute certainity.

It is not the church that makes saints but the word of God through faith in/on Jesus Christ. The church are the faithful called to be saints in Christ by the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The church doesn't claim to make saints - it mealy recognising some people as having clearly been saints.

The only statement that must be made according to God's word is confession with the heart that Jesus is the son of God.
No words of uninspired men.

You seem to have no idea what the Catechism is for - its a teaching document, not something to read out and then know you're saved.

The catechism is nothing more than a document to help understand what the bible and the teachings of the church are.
 
A repacement for the Holy Spirit??
The teaching of the church should be the BIble, so isn't catechism redundant?

On that basis we wouldn't need to discuss the bible with each other, listen to other's opinions on it, read books (catholic, protestant, or otherwise), bother with sermons and homilies, or anything else.  Experience shows that that way leads to everyone coming up with a completely different interpretation of the bible.

The fact is, the bible is an extreamly complex book - as it should be if its going to tell us anything meaningful about an infinite God, so we all need the work of others to help us understand it.   The catechism is one such document.  Feel free to disagree with some of the precise content, but the principle is no different from the sermon in any church service, the leaflets at the back of any church, debates on this forum, books in your prefered Christian bookshop, or any other text (written, spoken, pictorial or whatever) that expounds or explains what's in the bible.

But as an extra:
Jesus had siblings born to Mary.

How do you know this.  The bible talks about Jesus' siblings, but the word it uses could refer to cousins, or they could be son's of Joseph.  The bible alone simply does not say which.

God gave us Jesus the Christ through Mary and she like Peter would probably say to Rome "Satan get thee hence" for adulterating my Heavenly Father's word by putting me up on a pedestal that God did not assign to me."

You may not be capable of learning anything useful from her example, but many are.   And if the angel Gabriel, and her cousin Elizabeth, can both pay honour to her, then I see no reason why we can't.

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God?? "

We need to understand the nature of that salvation.  If one sentence were enough, we wouldn't need the whole bible.

Your turn to explain why the protestant churches added the three non-biblical teachings I mentioned:

1. Sola Scriptura
2. Biblical inerrancy in matters not concerning faith
3. The idea that God only speaks through the bible, and never through his followers or the Church

[michael_legna]

*applauds*

 


And as an extra.... why is Mary considered a perpetual virgin if she was married and Jesus had siblings? And why is Mary considered sinless?  

Mary was considered eternally a virgin because no where in scripture does it say that she had children and the understanding of all the early Church Father's (those who had first hand accounts from the Apostles and others who knew Jesus and His mother) agree with this perpetual virginity.  

Verses used by some to show Christ had brothers and/or sisters can always be shown to be referring to cousins or other more distant relationships.  Besides it must be remembered that Joseph was much older than Mary and could easily have had children from a previous marriage so even if Jesus had true brothers and sisters they could have been half brother and so Mary still could have remained a virgin.  

The point is that the teaching that she remained a virgin  is not contrary to scripture and is supported by the writings of the earliest Christians.

Mary is considered sinless because Jesus/God cannot be in the presence of sin as is clear from Rev 21:27 where nothing unclean can enter heaven.  Therefore so that Mary could be an acceptable vessel to bear our Lord she was kept from sin and saved by Christ prior to her birth.   This teaching also is not contrary to scripture and is supported by the writings of the earliest Christians.

[michael_legna]

Mary the mother of God?

God sent Christ Jesus to die for us and be intermediary between God and HIs people. The cup he drank should be all sufficient for all men for all time.

Mary being the mother of God does not impact this issue at all.  The doctrine of Mary as mother of God comes from defending the divinity of Jesus.  Mary is Jesus' mother, Jesus is truly God, Mary is God's mother.  That simple.

The Pope as head of the church on earth?

God made Christ Jesus to be the head of His church on earth.

The Pope is the physical head of the physical Church on earth.  Jesus is still the spiritual head of the Church both on earth and in heaven.  Just as we must have a physically identifiable Church on earth in order to appeal to it to clear up disagreements between brothers (Matt 18;17) that physical Church needs to have someone in charge.

Raising people up to be special saints?

God sent Jesus Christ to shed His blood through which all who are called by His gospel are sanctified and holy, called to be saints.

This is a misunderstanding or purposeful misrepresentation of the Catholic Churches statement on saints.  The Catholic Church does not raise anyone up to be saints.  It teaches all who are saved are saints.  But a few whose lives have been rigorously investigated have been shown to have led lives worthy of being used as an example and those the Church designate as saints.  It is basically saying that the Church is pretty sure those individuals were truly saved and that it is ok to model your life after their behavior.  The list of saints of the Catholic is by no means exhaustive or even infallible.

The catechism?

God sent Jesus and through the Holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ, to inspired men, scripture of God was given and God's scripture or word is all that is necessary for the man of God to stand approved.

The Bible is materially sufficient in that everything we need to know about our salvation and proper behavior is contained in it.  But it is not formally sufficient.  In other words the Bible like any written material is not completely clear.  That is because when you don't understand something in written material you cannot ask it to clarify itself.  That is why we have teachers to help illuminate the true meaning of it.

Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The RCC certainly has added nothing to the Gospel of Jesus but has expressed in it all it's fullness by interpreting each verse in light of the entirety of scripture instead of in isolation.

Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??

The reason is clear from your own statement.  Yes, Christ is sufficient to salvation as long as you understand that vaguely stated concept properly.  The specifics about what you believe about Christ, His role as sacrificial lamb, shepherd and the full message of His Gospel is not contained in so simple a statement and that is why a Church, to act as pillar and ground of the truth, and it's Catechism; are necessary to guide those who wish to understand the full meaning of the teachings of our Lord.  

[michael_legna]

In one word, the reason for the Dogmas of Mary are that she has been deliberately made to usurp the place of the Son of God.

That is not the intention of the RCC and it was not the intention of all the early Church Father's either.

Here is a brief glimpse into the teachings regarding Mary, from "The Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop, who did his research very thoroughly:

Quite the contrary, Hislop has been shown to have made up a large section of his book, claiming sources that don't exist and misquoting things at leisure.  In fact even some Protestant authors have come out apologizing for their reliance on his book.  No one of repute references his work these days.

'The Roman Church maintains that it was not so much the seed of the woman, as the woman herself, that was to bruise the head of the serpent. In defiance of all grammar, she renders the Divine denunciation against the serpent thus: "She shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise her heel." The same was held by the ancient Babylonians, and symbolically represented in their temples. In the uppermost story of the tower of Babel, or temple of Belus, Diodorus Siculus tells us there stood three images of the great divinities of Babylon; and one of these was of a woman grasping a serpent's head. Among the Greeks the same thing was symbolised; for Diana, whose real character was originally the same as that of the great Babylonian goddess, was represented as bearing in one of her hands a serpent deprived of its head. As time wore away, and the facts of Semiramis' history became obscured, her son's birth was boldly declared to be miraculous: and therefore she was called "Alma Mater," * "the Virgin Mother." '

This type of guilt by association (which is a logical error) riddles Hislops works - one of the reasons he is so easily discredited.

The early pagans have a myth a Gilgamesh who survived a world wide flood.  So by Hislop's reasoning the Israelites stole the idea from them and it is a pagan concept we must deny it ever happened.

[sincereheart]

Ok, please forgive my ignorance in advance....


Mary is Jesus' mother, Jesus is truly God, Mary is God's mother.  That simple.

So wouldn't that put Mary with God during creation?

Why does her 'status' have to be elevated? Why couldn't she be just a woman who God used - along the lines of Moses, John, Paul, etc? A 'vessel', if you will... Why does she have to be considered 'more holy'? This (along with the pope stuff) really has me thrown! I realize that RCC'ers say it is not worshipping Mary - but to a non-RCC'er it definitely appears to be!

[Petro]

*applauds*

 


And as an extra.... why is Mary considered a perpetual virgin if she was married and Jesus had siblings? And why is Mary considered sinless?  

Mary was considered eternally a virgin because no where in scripture does it say that she had children and the understanding of all the early Church Father's (those who had first hand accounts from the Apostles and others who knew Jesus and His mother) agree with this perpetual virginity.  

Verses used by some to show Christ had brothers and/or sisters can always be shown to be referring to cousins or other more distant relationships.  Besides it must be remembered that Joseph was much older than Mary and could easily have had children from a previous marriage so even if Jesus had true brothers and sisters they could have been half brother and so Mary still could have remained a virgin.  

The point is that the teaching that she remained a virgin  is not contrary to scripture and is supported by the writings of the earliest Christians.

Mary is considered sinless because Jesus/God cannot be in the presence of sin as is clear from Rev 21:27 where nothing unclean can enter heaven.  Therefore so that Mary could be an acceptable vessel to bear our Lord she was kept from sin and saved by Christ prior to her birth.   This teaching also is not contrary to scripture and is supported by the writings of the earliest Christians.

Nonsense, all you have quoted is traditional teaching of the RCC.

Scripture does not substantiate your allegations, it is clear Joseph and Mary had sons and daughters.

There is not a shred of evidence Joseph had any children by any previous marriage.

Keep dreaming....

Mary, was not a perpetual virgin and neither was she immaculately concevied, nor taken bodily into heaven, it is all a concotion of someones imagination, taught as thou it is the Word of God.

She was a plain ole sinner in need of a Savior just like every run of the mill human, she was chosen by God to give birth to the Child Jesus, even she says she is a sinner;

Lk 1
41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42  And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45  And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
46  And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47  And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48  For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49  For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50  And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.
51  He hath showed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
52  He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.
53  He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
54  He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55  As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
56  And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.


Petro

[ollie]

Mary the mother of God?

God sent Christ Jesus to die for us and be intermediary between God and HIs people. The cup he drank should be all sufficient for all men for all time.

Mary being the mother of God does not impact this issue at all.  The doctrine of Mary as mother of God comes from defending the divinity of Jesus.  Mary is Jesus' mother, Jesus is truly God, Mary is God's mother.  That simple.

The Pope as head of the church on earth?

God made Christ Jesus to be the head of His church on earth.

The Pope is the physical head of the physical Church on earth.  Jesus is still the spiritual head of the Church both on earth and in heaven.  Just as we must have a physically identifiable Church on earth in order to appeal to it to clear up disagreements between brothers (Matt 18;17) that physical Church needs to have someone in charge.

Raising people up to be special saints?

God sent Jesus Christ to shed His blood through which all who are called by His gospel are sanctified and holy, called to be saints.

This is a misunderstanding or purposeful misrepresentation of the Catholic Churches statement on saints.  The Catholic Church does not raise anyone up to be saints.  It teaches all who are saved are saints.  But a few whose lives have been rigorously investigated have been shown to have led lives worthy of being used as an example and those the Church designate as saints.  It is basically saying that the Church is pretty sure those individuals were truly saved and that it is ok to model your life after their behavior.  The list of saints of the Catholic is by no means exhaustive or even infallible.

The catechism?

God sent Jesus and through the Holy Spirit given by Jesus Christ, to inspired men, scripture of God was given and God's scripture or word is all that is necessary for the man of God to stand approved.

The Bible is materially sufficient in that everything we need to know about our salvation and proper behavior is contained in it.  But it is not formally sufficient.  In other words the Bible like any written material is not completely clear.  That is because when you don't understand something in written material you cannot ask it to clarify itself.  That is why we have teachers to help illuminate the true meaning of it.

Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The RCC certainly has added nothing to the Gospel of Jesus but has expressed in it all it's fullness by interpreting each verse in light of the entirety of scripture instead of in isolation.

Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??

The reason is clear from your own statement.  Yes, Christ is sufficient to salvation as long as you understand that vaguely stated concept properly.  The specifics about what you believe about Christ, His role as sacrificial lamb, shepherd and the full message of His Gospel is not contained in so simple a statement and that is why a Church, to act as pillar and ground of the truth, and it's Catechism; are necessary to guide those who wish to understand the full meaning of the teachings of our Lord.  

And the scripture is??

[ollie]

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??"

[Petro]

"Man has added many things and ordinances to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Why, when Christ is all sufficient to salvation from sin and to life in God??"

ollie,


And that is the truth............

Petro

[ebia]

Ok, please forgive my ignorance in advance....


Mary is Jesus' mother, Jesus is truly God, Mary is God's mother.  That simple.

So wouldn't that put Mary with God during creation?

Clearly not.
I ask again, which bit of:
Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Therefore Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Jesus is God
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.
do you have a problem with?

Why does her 'status' have to be elevated? Why couldn't she be just a woman who God used - along the lines of Moses, John, Paul, etc? A 'vessel', if you will... Why does she have to be considered 'more holy'?

Mary is a model of someone who accepted God's will, and did what was asked of her - an example to us all.  Lots of other people have also followed God's will, and are respected for it, but Mary's role - carrying, giving birth to, and nuturing Christ - is on a different order of magnitude.

This (along with the pope stuff) really has me thrown! I realize that RCC'ers say it is not worshipping Mary - but to a non-RCC'er it definitely appears to be!

Appearences can be deceptive.  Lots of things appear strange or wrong if you don't understand them.