Is it christian to mock the woman GOD chose to mother Jesus

[Reba]

 Two weeks ago i would have said sure he did. But  then scripture was  right there in my face ( thank you Petro   ) and it did not read that way to me.  Here are the verses..

Gal 1:17-19
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

I have looked this up in other translations, to me, they read the same. The question i would like to put to the forum is multible...

How do verses 17 and 18 read from a grammar perspective?

Are there other scriptures that tell us Paul was in Araiba for 3 years?

Is there written history of Paul in Araiba?


 

[Reba]

I was hoping to get some replies.  

As if it matters to anyone i still have not found something telling me about  3 years in Arabia.

This was not posted to be arguementive but to learn.

[2nd Timothy]

Reba,

Verse 17 and 18 read fine to me.  He says...
Nether went I to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
28  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

I don't believe there are any other scriptures to collaborate this.   This does seem however's Paul's argument to the Galatians for being a true Apostle of the Lord.  For the sake of interest...let me post a clip from John Gill's exository on the subject.

John Gill's Expository.
Gal 1:17 - Neither went I up to Jerusalem,.... That is, immediately, as soon as he was converted, not till three years after, as follows; though by the account which Luke gives of him, Act_9:23 and by that which the apostle gives of himself, Act_22:17 it looks as if he went to Jerusalem some little time after his conversion, and before the date here given: and therefore some have thought that he did go up to Jerusalem pretty quickly, when, praying in the temple, he fell into a trance, and was ordered to make haste from thence, and go far hence unto the Gentiles and accordingly he made no stay, did not go to any of the apostles, and neither saw nor conversed with any of them, which is what he here says,

to them which were apostles before me. The twelve, who were called, ordained, and sent forth as apostles before he was; for last of all Christ appeared to him, and was seen by him as one born out of due time: his meaning is, not that he was a successor of the apostle's, but that they were instated in the office of apostleship before him; and this he mentions to show that he did not receive the Gospel from men, no not from the apostles themselves; since, upon his conversion, he did not go up to Jerusalem to see any of them, and talk with them; nor did he stand in need of any instructions from them, being immediately furnished sufficiently by Christ himself; nor did his work lie at Jerusalem, nor so much among the Jews as among the Gentiles, and therefore to them he went:
SNIP:

It does make for interesting reading, and speculation, but I think we have to take Paul's word not given anything else to go by.

Hope this helps.

Grace and Peace!

[Forrest]

     I beleive that what Reba is saying and what I also took note of is that many say that Paul spent 3 years in Arabia, but according to Gal 1:17-18 it was Damascus he spent 3 years the Bible does not give the time that Paul spent in Arabia .

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
 
      Reba;
     I will be E-mailing a friend maybe he will shead somelight on the subject though it may take a little time.

[2nd Timothy]

Oops...sorry, I guess I did misunderstand.  

Grace and Peace!

[Reba]

Thanks Forrest

My questioning such a simple thought goes back a lifetime.(57years) Dad was a preacher. (Pentecostal dispy) (I thought scofield's notes were bible cuz they are printed in it)   I took the words of my parents as " gospel"  ( o boy  can those words start a internet war   ) . Over the years dad grew in the LORD he passed much knowledge on to us kids. Finding out that words or phrases, these have been listed here before, like,  heavenly language, rapture, even the  words 'Jesus love you', are not a “scripture  quote” was a shock. So i want to know what the scripture says not when we have  'always heard' but truly what is said.

I will be asking question such as Paul in Arabia as time goes by.

We all come to bible reading, almost any reading for that matter, with preconceived ideas. I hope to shake the predetermined thoughts and learn anew. Dispys, fundies, WoF, TBNers,  RCC, reformers ,what ever our background we bring those thoughts to our understanding of scripture. I don’t want my church traditions to take over, or be equal to,  the word as the RCC traditions do.  So i question to the dismay of many.

Tim. Any input your friend has would be great! Thanks for  taking the time to read and care.

I will be gone for a few days. Please pray I will be a blessing to my friend. I will be taking care of my friend who has had a liver transplant  She is recovering slowly.

My computer is dieing the NEW one in on its way here!

[Symphony]

Hmm.  This is interesting.  I want to come back to this.

[2nd Timothy]

Thanks Forrest

My questioning such a simple thought goes back a lifetime.(57years) Dad was a preacher. (Pentecostal dispy) (I thought scofield's notes were bible cuz they are printed in it)   I took the words of my parents as " gospel"  ( o boy  can those words start a internet war   ) . Over the years dad grew in the LORD he passed much knowledge on to us kids. Finding out that words or phrases, these have been listed here before, like,  heavenly language, rapture, even the  words 'Jesus love you', are not a “scripture  quote” was a shock. So i want to know what the scripture says not when we have  'always heard' but truly what is said.

I will be asking question such as Paul in Arabia as time goes by.

We all come to bible reading, almost any reading for that matter, with preconceived ideas. I hope to shake the predetermined thoughts and learn anew. Dispys, fundies, WoF, TBNers,  RCC, reformers ,what ever our background we bring those thoughts to our understanding of scripture. I don’t want my church traditions to take over, or be equal to,  the word as the RCC traditions do.  So i question to the dismay of many.

Tim. Any input your friend has would be great! Thanks for  taking the time to read and care.

I will be gone for a few days. Please pray I will be a blessing to my friend. I will be taking care of my friend who has had a liver transplant  She is recovering slowly.

My computer is dieing the NEW one in on its way here!

I will be praying for you and your friend Reba, that God will be with you both during this time.

Not wanting to take credit, I believe Forrest was the one with the friend who he planned to ask about this.

If I could, I would like to also say that I too have been struggling with the many interpritations of scripture, as evident by the many denominations.   I have been asking my Brother who is in seminary, and Dad who is a minister how so many people could read the same bible and come up with so many different doctrines.  Both of them told me, that one must as best he or she can, try to rightly divide all scripture, asking God for guidance during the process.  Some will always have a different view about a certain passage of scripture, but that doesn't mean they are not necessarily Gods children.  In my view, the one thing that must be taken as a whole, is that Christ died for us, and we are saved by grace, through faith.  I believe all of Gods true children would accept this.   Beyond that, as we enter our personal relationship with Jesus christ, we will begin to know him better through his word and prayer.   Yes, a lot of us come into it with pressupostion about the bible, but there is no question that God leads ALL his children to a better understanding of him, as we seek to know him better.   I think God takes delight when we seek HIS wisdom through his word, and seek to know HIM on a personal level, allowing him to speak to our own hearts, and not just taking what we are told to take.   This IMO is what having a personal relationship with him is all about.

In many ways, I think God chooses to keep his many mysteries hidden at times, because it forces us to seek a better understanding of him ourselves.  This is what he wants from us.   To know him, and as we try to know him, he shows us just enough to keep us looking and seeking.  Because the more we know him, the more we want to know and love him, because we realize more and more just how wonderful a God he really is.  

Sorry for the novel, but can totally relate to what you say in your last post.  This has been a real struggle for me as well.  But at the same time, I know it forces all of us to keep seeking his face, and searching out his endless wonder and grace.  

How sad it will be on the last day for those who come to the Lord when he says....I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

Grace and Peace!

[ollie]

I found these thoughts and they might be of interest on this subject.

"Following his conversion and the Damascus incident, he was led by the now-indwelling Holy Spirit into Arabia then again into Damascus where he was set apart for three years of preparation before finally journeying to Jerusalem to meet Peter. The Scriptures are silent about his activities during this time except to carry Paul's testimony that he was being taught by the revelations of Jesus Christ.

It is also interesting that the Disciples were set apart with Jesus for three years before they began their ministries as Apostles and now we see that Paul also spent three years apart with the same Jesus before assuming the Apostleship Christ had called him to."

The highlight is mine as this is something of which I was not aware or had not connected the thoughts.

"It is also interesting that he was led into Arabia for his desert experience just as Moses had been led into the land of Midian, and as Christ had been led into the wilderness."

 JOAN KREMPEL
http://www.joankrempelministries.com/frontpage/paul.html
 

[Symphony]

Yes, "Damascus" follows Arabia before the three years is mentioned, so he apparently spent that time in Damascus.

How long in Arabia?

Somewhere I got the impression Paul was in Arabia some fourteen years(?).  

I'm guessing this "Paul"--a Pharisee of Pharisees, and a career persecutor, had to spend no little time undoing what was inside him.  I'm not convinced his heavenly experience on the road to Damascas turned him into a Jesus-loving disciple, or apostle, overnight.  


As far as you carry the stones into the water, you have to carry them back out again.  

I'm guessing Paul to go through quite a revolution--and revelation--of "undoing", "unthinking", and "rethinking".  The deep-seated pride of your typical Pharisee would have been unfathomably resolute and self-righteous.  They would kill you if you were a Christian.

[Forrest]

       Reba:
      I know how that can be I was a JW from about 14 till 27 years of age I would as some might say eat,and sleep it till I could sit down with a paster of a church and convence him that the Trinity was false, I know how Paul felt aboutthe things he did before coming to Christ, and also haveing to unlearn a lot of things since then I find it very hard to trust what any man has to say about the Bible I have to see it for my self, btw. I'm not saying your dad was like that just that I know how easy it is that traditions can grow in and be taken for gosple.

                         YBIC

[Petro]

Yes, "Damascus" follows Arabia before the three years is mentioned, so he apparently spent that time in Damascus.

How long in Arabia?

Somewhere I got the impression Paul was in Arabia some fourteen years(?).  

I'm guessing this "Paul"--a Pharisee of Pharisees, and a career persecutor, had to spend no little time undoing what was inside him.  I'm not convinced his heavenly experience on the road to Damascas turned him into a Jesus-loving disciple, or apostle, overnight.  


As far as you carry the stones into the water, you have to carry them back out again.  

I'm guessing Paul to go through quite a revolution--and revelation--of "undoing", "unthinking", and "rethinking".  The deep-seated pride of your typical Pharisee would have been unfathomably resolute and self-righteous.  They would kill you if you were a Christian.

Symph,

Actually the word says Paul imediately preached Jesus, which could only have been by the leading of the Spirit of God.

Note:

Acts 9
18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19  And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20  And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
21  But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
22  But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

Reba,

Verse 17 and 18 read fine to me.  He says...
Nether went I to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
28  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

I don't believe there are any other scriptures to collaborate this.   This does seem however's Paul's argument to the Galatians for being a true Apostle of the Lord.  For the sake of interest...let me post a clip from John Gill's exository on the subject.

John Gill's Expository.
Gal 1:17 - Neither went I up to Jerusalem,.... That is, immediately, as soon as he was converted, not till three years after, as follows; though by the account which Luke gives of him, Act_9:23 and by that which the apostle gives of himself, Act_22:17 it looks as if he went to Jerusalem some little time after his conversion, and before the date here given: and therefore some have thought that he did go up to Jerusalem pretty quickly, when, praying in the temple, he fell into a trance, and was ordered to make haste from thence, and go far hence unto the Gentiles and accordingly he made no stay, did not go to any of the apostles, and neither saw nor conversed with any of them, which is what he here says,

to them which were apostles before me. The twelve, who were called, ordained, and sent forth as apostles before he was; for last of all Christ appeared to him, and was seen by him as one born out of due time: his meaning is, not that he was a successor of the apostle's, but that they were instated in the office of apostleship before him; and this he mentions to show that he did not receive the Gospel from men, no not from the apostles themselves; since, upon his conversion, he did not go up to Jerusalem to see any of them, and talk with them; nor did he stand in need of any instructions from them, being immediately furnished sufficiently by Christ himself; nor did his work lie at Jerusalem, nor so much among the Jews as among the Gentiles, and therefore to them he went:
SNIP:

It does make for interesting reading, and speculation, but I think we have to take Paul's word not given anything else to go by.

Hope this helps.

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

I held to the same thought, that Paul went to Jerusalem imediately after his conversion.

But, it had to be later, since as you stated, we should simply accept his own testimony which is:

Gal 1
17  Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.


So by his own word he says, he went to Arabia first, then Jerusalem.

And it is clear he did visit Jerusalem before returning 14 years later, because the word "again" appears in the text, at;

Gal 2
1  Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.

 Blessings,

Petro

[Petro]

There is another thought here that is important to consider when speaking about Paul's first journey to Jerusalem.

And that is the the word "apostle" is used in the general sense of the word, in that he says;

Gal 1
17  Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
18  Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
19  But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

So it appears he wasn't just speaking of the eleven.

Here is an interesting point.

The word "Apostle" is defined as;

"One sent on a mission.
An apostle has a message and is authoriuzed to act on behalf of the sender. Jesus's disciples were first learners (disciples) and then became apostles, taking the message of salvation (Lk 6:13, 9:10).
Jesus himself an Apostles sent by God (Heb 3:1), chose twelve disciples to send out as apostles.  Baranabs, Paul, and a few others were also called apostles (Acts 1:26,4:36. 1 Cor 1:1, Acts 13:3) "

Quoted from;  "The Student Bible Dictionary" by dockrey/godwin/godwin published by Barbour  Publishing Inc.

Blessings,
Petro

[Forrest]

Gal 1
17  Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.


So by his own word he says, he went to Arabia first, then Jerusalem.

   Petro;
   According to Pauls words "I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus." then after Three years he went to Jerusalem.
    PS, since converting from a JW. to CHRIST I am a literest unless proven other wise I take the Bible quite litterally.