Mark of the Beast

[2nd Timothy]

World daily news reports...
Bio-chip implant arrives for cashless transactions
Announcement at global security confab unveils syringe-injectable ID microchip.  

The implications of this should ring loud and clear (Rev 13:16-17).  If you don't know the Lord, now would be a good time to inquire.

Read the entire article here...
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35766

[2nd Timothy]

Following a few of the links from the article, the question is already being asked..."couldn't this be a prototype of the mark of the beast mentioned in Revelation?"  One university professor responds that the mark of the beast speaks about buying and selling, and that the mark is coerced.  

A Further question regarding this.

But what about a future in which everyone must take an embedded chip if they want to drive or work in secure environments? Kickasola stresses that any government coercion would collide with the First Amendment.

"Government cannot coerce us to speak," he said. "And a microchip speaks a lot, it has a lot of information in it. The one threshold in the Bible we must not pass is the threshold of coercion, whereby we have a state or federally enforced form of identification in our body."

A few things come to mind at first.  As we all know, a drivers licsense is not coerced, however imagine life without one.   Another funny argument is about the First Amendment.  We've all seen in recent years and months how the constitution is being attacked but I digress.

Not that I think any inplanted chip in and of itself is the mark of the beast (and I wouldn't want one anyways), but its obvious that this is one more thing spoken about in Revelation that is becoming reality in our time, before our very eyes.  The chess board is setting up nicely for all events in Revelation to begin.

[nChrist]

Not that I think any inplanted chip in and of itself is the mark of the beast (and I wouldn't want one anyways), but its obvious that this is one more thing spoken about in Revelation that is becoming reality in our time, before our very eyes.  The chess board is setting up nicely for all events in Revelation to begin.

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

I don't know about the chip being or becoming the mark of the beast. Regardless, I think we are seeing a preview of the end times. One of the things I have to be most thankful for is that my entire family is saved. I understand how sad it can be in many families to think about those who are lost.

This old world is a sad and evil place. I love the Sunday School Song, "This little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine." That's what all of our Brothers and Sisters should do until Jesus comes to take us home.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

[Raphu]

A physical manifestation is possible, but I think that the angels will see the mark or seal of the Holy Spirit that is on Christians and the mark that is of the beast is similar - unseen in the physical but seen in the spiritual.

[twobombs]

Please note that the angels that seal up (scribe in ezechiel) the ones that sigh and cry for the problems in the city are followed by the angels of destruction/wrath.

So, short before the wrath people will be sealed.


Eze 7:25     Destruction cometh; and they shall seek peace, and [there shall be] none.

Eze 9:9     [...] the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.

Rev 9:4     And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Eze 9:4     And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Eze 9:5     And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

So the peace talks will be here to stay until the "sudden destruction that cometh upon them".

[Petro]

With all this talk about the mark of the beast.

Allow me to ask a question;

Is it possible for Christians to receive this mark, in whatever  form it is??

Or, not?

It is given to understand that, those who do not worship the beast are caused to be slain. (Rev 13:15)

Rev 13
16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

The mark affects all men on the earth one way or the other, can any who receive it be saved?

It is clear to me, there are those who live thruogh the tribulation which will be saved.......


Blessings,
Petro

[Paul2]

   It is IMPOSSIBLE for a true Christian to receive the mark of the beast. The true Church will be Raptured a minimum of 1260 days before the mark of the beast is issued. Those who come to faith in Christ AFTER the Rapture will be Tribulation Saints, many of them martyred for refusal to accept the mark.

     Anyone who accepts the mark of the beast will be damned. The church's destiny is to be in Heaven from chapter 4 of Revelation through chapter 19.

     No Tribulation Saint will take the mark, those destined will be taken captive and martyred.

      Revelation is a scary book if you fail to understand the format given in the KEY verse of the Book, Revelation 1:19.

      For more details see the posts I wrote on the "Rapture season 2006-2007" by Two Bombs in the prophecy section.

                              Paul2

[Ambassador4Christ]

  It is IMPOSSIBLE for a true Christian to receive the mark of the beast. The true Church will be Raptured a minimum of 1260 days before the mark of the beast is issued. Those who come to faith in Christ AFTER the Rapture will be Tribulation Saints, many of them martyred for refusal to accept the mark.

     Anyone who accepts the mark of the beast will be damned. The church's destiny is to be in Heaven from chapter 4 of Revelation through chapter 19.

     No Tribulation Saint will take the mark, those destined will be taken captive and martyred.

      Revelation is a scary book if you fail to understand the format given in the KEY verse of the Book, Revelation 1:19.

      For more details see the posts I wrote on the "Rapture season 2006-2007" by Two Bombs in the prophecy section.

                              Paul2

AMEN!!! Paul2 AMEN!!!

[2nd Timothy]

I agree, receiving the mark seems to imply you cannot be saved.  Now it does in Rev, he caused all to receive a mark, then in other places it speaks of those who come through the trib being saved.   Yet again in other places, it speaks of those who had received the mark were deluded by the beast, those who had received the mark when the first angel poors out his bowl break out in sores.  

Some contradiction here and there about if everyone here receives the mark or not.  Clearly we are given a verse that allows some who have wisdom to calculate the mark, and no its curse.   As Paul2 says, I believe the church is gone at this time, but it seems that some will resist taking the mark as some come through the trib without it.  Those who take the mark are deluded or caused to be deceived by a lie, and worship the beast.   Perhaps there are pockets of resistance that don't take the mark....and arent matyred.  Speculation, but it does say some will come through without receiving it.

Grace and Peace!

[Petro]

I agree, receiving the mark seems to imply you cannot be saved.  Now it does in Rev, he caused all to receive a mark, then in other places it speaks of those who come through the trib being saved.   Yet again in other places, it speaks of those who had received the mark were deluded by the beast, those who had received the mark when the first angel poors out his bowl break out in sores.  

Some contradiction here and there about if everyone here receives the mark or not.  Clearly we are given a verse that allows some who have wisdom to calculate the mark, and no its curse.   As Paul2 says, I believe the church is gone at this time, but it seems that some will resist taking the mark as some come through the trib without it.  Those who take the mark are deluded or caused to be deceived by a lie, and worship the beast.   Perhaps there are pockets of resistance that don't take the mark....and arent matyred.  Speculation, but it does say some will come through without receiving it.

Grace and Peace!

This precisely why I asked the question.

I am thinking of Mat 24, and what Jesus said;  

21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

And I almost think, that the the day in view herein at verse  27 of Mat 24;

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


has got to be the same day as Daniels day mentioned at;

Dan 12
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Now if one doesn't believe Jesus is returning to earth to reign physically from Jerusalem, Daniels prophecy doesn't have to be the same day, it could be another day.

The problem I see herein is, Daniels day is mid tribulation, yet the Lords return at Mat 24 is imediately after the thye tribulatyion of those day, and at his return will be His pouring out of His wrath upon the ungodly, the tribulation is brought about by Satan that old serpent, who comes is come down unto the earth, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:12.


Blessings,

[2nd Timothy]

Petro,

Firstly, (Not that you are saying this at all, but I just wanted to be clear for others reading along) I do not believe a persons stand on pre, mid, or post Rapture has any bearing on ones salvation.  I believe most christians would accept this point.

Now, the debate about whether or not the rapture is pre or post trib is an argument that has scripture to support both conclusions.   Both sides make a good case, but in my view, the "imminency" doctrine holds more water than that of the post tribulation rapture.  Believers back in bible days were greeting each other by saying "Maranatha", which means "Our Lord comes"...almost as if they were willing him to come, or expecting it at any time.

We are continually told to keep watch, be ready, for you know not when your lord returns, such as the parable of the 10 Virgins.  No man knows the day nor hour, but only the father.   To me, if the tribulation period started today, we would know exactly when the midway point is reached by the desecration that is to happen in the temple, thus making known when christ would return to the day going by Daniels timing.   This argument makes it sound as though the return is prevented until certain events take place, thus negating any reason to remain in readiness, or being watchful for the blessed hope.  Thus the saying, let us eat drink and be merry, for our lord tarry's.  Not to mention, that a post trib rapture, catches us up in the air to meet him, only to make an immediate u-turn and come right back down to our wicked earth and set up camp for 1000 years peace.   What happend to the place he went to prepare for us in his fathers mansion?   His bride going through great wrath that he himself will pour out upon the earth, such as NEVER seen before....even the flood of Noah?   Where is the blessed hope in this?  I don't see it.   Just because Elect are seen being rescued by cutting time short, does not mean those elect are individuals who will seek salvation after the rapture occurs.  I believe churches will be full of people seeking God after the rapture.  Much like what happened after 9-11.  But it was short lived then, as it will most likely be then.

To be fair, I do realize that there are some contradictory  verses on the issue, that seem to indicate the opposite.  I guess one just has to weigh the balance of scripture in their own heart, and try to rightly divide the truth to come to a conclusion about this matter.  For me, thus far, the immenant return scriptures seem to have much more weight than that of a post trib, which submits the bride to the grooms wrath right before the honeymoon.

To highlight the imminency doctrine, here are some verses that lend to it.
*****************************************
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat 24:36).
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mat 25:1-6)

"Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:33-37).

"Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light" (Rom 13:11-12).

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1:10).

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6).

"Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb 9:28).

"Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching" (Heb 10:24-25).

"For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb 10:37).

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life" (Jude 1:21).

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev 3:11).
*********************************

Either way pre or post, we shall see him, but for me.....I am waiting with my lamp and oil, so I can see him the instant he calls.  [and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time]

Maranatha!

[Petro]

Amen,  we are of one mind on this matter.

Although it is important to "watch and wait", the rature has become a distraction for the church, today in my opinion.

As it takes away from the task at hand, the church has been given, Christians have been ordained ;

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."


Somehow I can't help but seeing obedience to the command of evangelization as having the primacyl, instead of watching and waiting.

The verses you have put forth are all familiar to me.

But the doctrine which is taught that doesn't quite fit, is that of the marriage supper of the lamb, taking place being the purpose for the rapture.

This cannot be, since it is clear to me the church is the bride of christ, and those who are yet to be saved, are all who belong to the church, and perfection can only come when the union between the entire body and its head come together, presently he sits at the right hand of the majesty until his enemies be made his footstool.  

The key verses which must be reconciled with all others are  these ones;

Heb 11
32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33  Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34  Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35  Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36  And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The us in this verse is not limited to those of us who post in the forum, but those who believe on the preached word to the last days. Note verse 20;

"them also which shall believe on me through their word"[/b];


Jhn17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

These are the Bridegrooms own words, if anyone knows He does.  I don't put much stock in commentaries, or others opinions, when I have His own Words to guide me.

I am afraid the teaching of the rapture has become something foreign to the will of God the Father and God the Son.

The wedding feast cannot take place until the last son of God is adopted into the family of God, only then can the bride and groom be married.

Are there any other reasons, for the rapture taking place pre, or post tribulation, besides escaping the wrath??

In Revelation 14, it is clear only those who worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Believers are promised to kept from the hour of wrath.

Blessing,

Petro

[2nd Timothy]

Amen,  we are of one mind on this matter.

Although it is important to "watch and wait", the rature has become a distraction for the church, today in my opinion.

As it takes away from the task at hand, the church has been given, Christians have been ordained ;

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Somehow I can't help but seeing obedience to the command of evangelization as having the primacyl, instead of watching and waiting.

Amen!   We should live like he is coming today, and work as though he were coming 1000 years from now.   I believe the references to sleeping in some of the prior verses apply to this also.   We cannot fall asleep in the comfort of this hope.  We must carry on with the work he has left for us to do.  Each of us in our known circles, could be the only Christian standing between a lost soul and a possible eternity without God.  May God never let us forget this!

The verses you have put forth are all familiar to me.

But the doctrine which is taught that doesn't quite fit, is that of the marriage supper of the lamb, taking place being the purpose for the rapture.

This cannot be, since it is clear to me the church is the bride of christ, and those who are yet to be saved, are all who belong to the church, and perfection can only come when the union between the entire body and its head come together, presently he sits at the right hand of the majesty until his enemies be made his footstool.  

Thanks brother, I stand corrected!  I also see in revelation 19:7 where the wedding of the bride and groom takes place later.   Admittedly, I have not done a complete study of these points, but discussions such as these fill me with vigor to make time for it.

Jhn17
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Verses well worth studying under the light of this topic.

I am afraid the teaching of the rapture has become something foreign to the will of God the Father and God the Son.

Again, I can agree here.  There is no question that some put more weight on this part of Gods truth than others.   However, we must balance Gods truth in our lives and seek his will for us, carrying his promises to those who have not heard it.  No question, his return should be in our hearts and minds all the time, but comfort in this should also help us realize those who need his mercy and saving grace are still yet to be harvested.

Are there any other reasons, for the rapture taking place pre, or post tribulation, besides escaping the wrath??

If nothing else but to behold him, and be with him, that would be enough!

Believers are promised to kept from the hour of wrath.

Whether or not this means rapture, or protection, I believe and trust the promise of his word.

Great discussion Petro.   Being able to talk about the Lords  mysteries with others who know him is not only exciting and a blessing, but its down right fun!   Moreso, I believe we build each other up when we can compare what God is sharing with out hearts through his word.

1Thes 5:10-11
10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
(NIV)

Blessings to you also Petro!

[Paul2]

      I use current events and prophecy to evanglise, Israel and the middle east conflict is a great way to start. I start with Jerusalem. I explain that the city of Jerusalem is the stumbling block to peace in the middle east. The Israeli Jews Believe that God gave them Israel and Jerusalem as the "promised Land". The Jews will never give up Jerusalem, and plan to rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount, now occupied by the Palestinian Muslims and their Dome of the Rock Mosque, which they believe "Allah" gave to them

     This is where true peace talks must begin. The current approach of the U.S. led road map to peace will fail because it fails to address the real problem, who is God, and who did He give Jerusalem to?

     The current road map to peace has steps leading to peace. The first step is stop the terrorist attacks. Once this is done (don't hold your breath) the next step involves dismantling the settlements. Jerusalem is "off the table" as far as final negociations until the last phase of the road map.

     The U.S. is saying, "Lets take it on step at a time, we'll talk about Jerusalem after we have completed the steps we have determined must take place before any final solution of Jerusalem will be debated."

     First terror must end, then the settlement issues of what stays in Israeli control and what is surrendered to the Palestinian state they seek to create. The problem is the Palestinians want Jerusalem to be the Capital of a Palestinian state and the Jews will never agree to that (until Antichrist comes and offers a treaty in which the Jews are allowed to rebuild their temple and SHARE the Temple mount with the Palestinians.)  I lure people into "political discussions" and can instantly turn the conversation into a "religious discussion" using the middle east and the Jews and Muslims. Then I can instantly throw the Christian Biblical prophecy perspective into the equation. Middle east politics and religion are inseperable, so why try, spell it out like it is.

Most people understand Jews believe God (Jehovah) gave them the land, and that Muslims believe god (Allah) gave the land to them. I add in what the Bible has to say on the issues.

      And when I'm done shattering their hopes and dreams of this present world, I give them hope and reveal to them that before all the doom and gloom to come, Christ Raptures the Church. This can be very motivational once people can see that their little world maybe vanishing before their eyes as they watch Fox news every night. Ignorance is bliss, it has been said. I like to take away peoples ignorance and make them focus on the big picture. Most people have no idea the Bible contains detailed prophecies which are already to be fulfilled now. The rapture removes the fear of believing the world as we know it will soon come under judgment and wrath.

     Try telling someone, "Hey let me tell you about Jesus, you have to believe in him so when the Antichrist comes and tries to give you the mark, you can get your head loped off and go to Heaven, sound good?" They will say,"why would I want to believe in someone who wants me to have my head loped off?"

     Try telling someone, "Hey let me tell you about Jesus, you have to believe in him so he can save you from His wrath, Rapture you to be with him and avoid the wrath against those who refuse to accept Him as God." Sounds alot better to me and best of all its truth.

     (amazing grace music playing) "Shall I be lofted to the sky, on flowery beds of ease, while others strive to win the prize and sail on bloody seas!"    Amazing Grace written by John Newton, former slave ship captain!

[2nd Timothy]

Nice Post Paul2

There is no question, that prophecy can be a powerful tool for wittnessing.   When you can show someone that events taking place today, were foretold thousands of years ago in the bible, this opens the door to the possibility that maybe the rest of Gods word is true to them.

Although I would never deny what the bible teaches about hell, I am not a big propnent of hell fire and brimstone wittnessing.   BTW, I'm not saying this is your tactic either....just to be clear.   People are blind to Gods truth, and need to hear it.   God speaks to each mans heart in a different way.   A lot of people are in tune with prophetic events, which opens the door to sharing Gods love with them.   So I don't think its wrong to approach it this way.   Whatever the approach, however we can get them to listen with their heart, we must find a way to plant the seed of truth.   The truth that they are in need of a saving God, who loves them and is merciful, and the price he paid to rescue us.

The seed needs more than planting many times.  Others will cultivate it, and water it, tilling the ground it was sown on.  I know you are aware of all this, so I am just rambling on.....lol

I do enjoy hearing what you have to say about Revelation and endtime events.   I like you believe in the rapture of the church before the trib, but I am open to allowing God to show me his translation, whichever way it may be.   I hope to begin my own research on this topic soon, and  I am praying that God will lead me to a deeper understanding of him.

I pray God will continue to bless you as you labor for him in sharing Gods word with others.

Grace and Peace!