Romans 7

[Royo]

"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice." [ Romans 7.19].

After 6 years of being a Christian, I found myself laying face down on the floor and crying to God, "I can't do it Father. I just keep failing you. I am so sorry Father, but I just keep not doing what you are showing me to do."
And with a loving voice, He said to me, "good, now will you let Me."

Then my loving Father began to show me how I would never be able, out of my own power, to obey Him nor please Him.
"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of hosts." [ Zech. 4.6].    "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." [John 15.5].

There are many more scriptures to show that we must depend uopn the Holy Spirit of God in ALL we do, or we will just end up failing. This truth God revealed to me set me free from struggling so hard to 'do it myself.'     Now I don't say that I don't at times find myself trying to do it out of my own power, for I do. But I am no longer burdened down thinking I HAD to do it for God. And when I do slip and try doing it out of my own power, He but needs to give me a gentle reminder of a truth I already know.

So why do I write this here? Because I believe there are probably some who have yet to learn this truth, and are doing as I was doing, and feeling guilt because they are failing God.

Some years after showing me this truth, He brought a man to me who desperately needed to know this truth. I was the manager of the Mission in Seattle, and this man had been in a couple times, and we had talked a bit. This time when he came in, he asked if we could go somewhere private. So we went to my room to talk. This man was tall, good looking, and had lots of "I can do it myself" kind of pride. He was what women would call "a hunk". He even walked with the pride of one who knows he has what it takes.
Well, he walked that way into my room, and started telling me how he was failing God. Within minutes his whole countenance changed to a beaten man, and he was bawling like a baby as he told me he just couldn't take it anymore. He said, "I hate it. I try so hard to live for God, but I just can't do it."
I said to him, "then quit trying." His sobbing stopped for a moment as he looked at me and said, "what?" Then I went on to explain to him that he could not do it out of his own power, and that anything God was commanding him to do, God would give him the power to do. Then I showed him many scriptures to show to him what I meant. His sobbing stopped, his face became relaxed, and he was soaking up what I was showing him from God's Word. The man who had come into my room with a huge monkey on his back, left with a newfound joy in his heart. And that too showed in the way he walked.

I was the opposite of this man. I was the 4th child, the only boy, and fell and hit my head when I was eleven, which left a scar on my brain that caused me to have epilepsy. Add to that my problems with my Dad, and I was spoiled rotten all my life by my Mom. And, because I had very little discipline growing up, I had very little self-discipline once I was grown up.  I was very weak.

This time that I cried out to God that I couldn't do what He was showing me to do, I also told Him how I hated being so weak. But He told me that this was good. Then I said to God what that man had said to me; "what?" It didn't make sense that being weak was a good thing. But of course, He used His Word to show me how it was a good thing. "....For when I am weak, then I am strong." [2 Cor. 12.10]. "And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." [2 Cor. 12.9]. And, "...and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the the things which are mighty." [1 Cor. 1.27].

I was near 30 when God revealed these truths to me. I had been for years carring a burden of feeling like I wasn't quite a man because of being so weak. You can imagine the joy I felt at finding out I was just the kind of guy God was looking for. Weak.

I pray that the sharing of these truths, and of my personal time of finding them out, will bless someone else who is carring the same burden I was.

Your brother in Christ our Lord.  Roy.

[Heidi]

I too think it's important to admit our weaknesses so that God can work in us. Right now I am struggling with knowing what God wants me to do with my life. All we can do is what we are led to do each day. I've given it all to Him but i find myself impatient because i'm not always able to discern what He is telling me. It's also possible that what He wants me to do each day is the opposite of what i want to do. I feel like I'm ready to do whatever He tells me. I'm just not always sure what that is.

[Allinall]

Amen!  I've come to the same conclusion via a different path...

I have often wondered why it is that we come to revivals, missions conferences, camps, retreats and the like, make wonderful decisions for Christ that a week later, we have neglected to keep.  I used to chalk it up to "being human."  But God began to work in my life with a few basic understandings.

For one, what is the biblical purpose of change?  

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Romans 8:29-30

Ultimately, change is for conforming us into the image of His Son, Jesus Christ.  It began to dawn on me that many of the decisions made, were based upon change: my committment to Jesus as a witness, or to missions, or to my personal bible study, or to giving, or to any other number of changes that were presented.  Were these wrong?  God forbid!  Rather, it was my view of my role in that change that was wrong.  God had never called me to change my life.  Change a behavior?  Yes.  Change my heart?  No!  How can I when my "heart is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked; who can know it?"  Even more, if change is to conform my life to Christlikeness - what makes me think I could ever mold myself into that glorious image?

Simply put, I can no more do that than I could paint a portrait of my Lord and claim it an authentic likeness.  The work must be God's, not mine:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:6

It is not my work!  It's His!  What then is my responsibilty?  The same responsibility that God has given man since day one: obedience.  He gives me a "change" to make, and He demands my obedience.  Yet, like Roy said, I can't obey! Isn't it interesting then that...

...it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13

The will of obedience and the power to perform the obedient act come from God.  Through what?  Faith, and an active obedience.  Remember...

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

James 1:22

We are to perform the act of obedience, yet it is God Who transforms my obedience into a willingness towards, and an action for His good pleasure.  I must obey.  

Why do the decisions we've made tend to go the way of the dodo bird in a short period of time?  Because I believe we accept the full responsibility for the change.  "I can do it" or "I must do it!"  I reject that!  I can't do it, and I mustn't do it!  Rather, I must obey my God.  I must see these behavioral changes that He does invoke as obedience factors in my life.  I truly believe that obedience is the door by which, God, through the power of His Spirit, and the incorporation of His word, conforms us into the image of His Son.  It is God's work, God's power and it is for God's pleasure.  Hence, it's God's responsibility.  Amen?

Good post Royo!

[Heidi]

Actually, I think obedience without a heart change can be destructive. That's what the Pharisees tried. But just admitting sin transforms it. When i admit my selfishness, then God can take it away, little by little. I find myself less angry, less selfish, much more forgiving than I used to be simply because I've admitted it. Then my actions come from my transformed temperament. But it's slower that I want so my impatience is still there.  But if I just obey God when my heart is still stuck in selfishness, then i end up resenting obeying Him and go back to my old ways. I definitely believe that our hearts have to be transformed before any real change can take place. Then our actions come from our hearts. One can't "decide" to forgive any more than he can "decide" to be loving. Real forgiveness and love come from the heart.

[Allinall]

Yes, but it is important to realize that obedience is what brings the heart change.  Obedience in and of itself is often insignificant.  Take this for example: as a parent, when I tell my daughter to come here, and she fuses, fights, falls to the ground and crawls to me - but actually comes to me - is that obedience?  In the act, but not in the heart.  It is God Who works the heart-felt obedience.  It is we who obey His commands.  

[Heidi]

When Jesus was addressing the Pharisees, He accused them of doing the right acts but inside, their hearts were evil. He then said, "Clean the inside of the cup first, and the outside will become clean as well." That is the only way to do it. If we clean the outside of the cup first, it becomes increasingly difficult to see the true state of our insides because we have presented the outside as holy and clean. We then have a longer way to fall. Jesus heals our hearts so that we NATURALLY fall into obedience. It all comes from admitting the truth about ourselves which is IN our hearts. Then as our sins fall away, more and more of  what's left is love and our responses will come from that. Then our insides and outsides will agree and we become genuine.

[Allinall]

Interestingly enough, the Pharisees to whom Jesus was speaking were lost.  They sought to earn their own righteousness through those acts of "obedience."  When Jesus tells them to "clean the inside" He isn't telling them that they must obey from a right heart, but rather that He must do the cleaning.  They needed salvation and a proper perspective of the obedience demanded.  It is God Who works in us to will and to do.  Yet it is God Who demands of us our obedience.  Our hearts are temporally deceitful, wicked and unknowable.  How can we say we obey from the heart?  I agree that if I obey grudgingly, then I can pretty much know that I offer an unacceptable obedience to my God.  Yet to assume that my heart is right, assumes that there are no oppositions in me to any matter that I am to obey.  Few can say truthfully that they want to do everything that God wants them to do.  Paul couldn't!  If the desire isn't inherent, then it is God wrought.

"Delight yourself in the Lord, and He will give you the desires of your heart."

[Heidi]

Jesus's blood does clean our hearts, PROVIDED we admit our sins. Jesus can't frogive what we don't confess. All Jesus wants from us is the truth. When we admit our ongoing sins and ask forgiveness, we receive God's love, forgiveness, and mercy. THEN, obedience naturally follows. It isn't a decision. Our cups are now overflowing more with God's love and forgiveness than with our previous evil desires. We respond from that love and mercy because we now want more of it. We can only come from what rules us. So I believe obedience FOLLOWS our heart change and our heart change FOLLOWS admitting our sins. It's a phenomenal process that begins with admitting the truth about ourselves. But if we obey FIRST, then there is danger that we will not confront our sinful heart. Our obedience then becomes an act of will rather than a response from a new heart. Sinful desires come from the heart. Once the heart is changed, then God transforms our sinful desires to the fruits of the Spirit.

[Mr. 5020]

I think this is the best thread I've seen at CU so far.

Heidi, the Bible says that "obedience is better than sacrifice."  It also says that if you are going to make an offering but have some problems with a brother, forget the offering...go make up.

My point is that there are so many "salvations" and "recommitments" at these revivals, camps, etc., and hardly any of them are true.  They just expect God to hit some magic red button to make you obedient.  God will help, but nowhere does the Bible say that God will make you obedient because you asked for forgiveness.

Also, kudos to Alinall and Royo for being the only ones to use Bible proof-text in their posts.

[Symphony]

Mr. 5020:  Also, kudos to Alinall and Royo for being the only ones to use Bible proof-text in their posts.


   



Thank you, Roy.  Wonderful testimony.  Weakness v. our own power.  Hehe.  Good reminder.  Thank you.  

[Mr. 5020]

Mr. 5020:  Also, kudos to Alinall and Royo for being the only ones to use Bible proof-text in their posts.


   

Glad you enjoyed that.  

Thank you, Roy.  Wonderful testimony.  Weakness v. our own power.  Hehe.  Good reminder.  Thank you.  

[ollie]

I think this is the best thread I've seen at CU so far.

It is a good discussion and without contention argueing, confusion ,strife, etc.
Each post and reply has added to and not taken away or diverted the subject.

Paul was also saying in so many words that as He grew in Christ and the grace God offers through Him that his increased sanctification through the Spirit made him even more aware of the sins that still remained in him and that God's law in his heart made him more aware of overcoming these sins.

[Heidi]

I've wanted to have a discussion like this since I've been on this forum. As far as obedience goes, we CANNOT be obedient. Who have us has sold everything we had and given to the poor, or loved our brother all the time or not lied, sworn, lusted, or called attention to ourselves, or wanted recognition, money, and on and on. Since we cannot do that all the time, we are forgiven. But what God does, is give us His grace, love, mercy and forgiveness which increases our ability to do those things daily. To the degree that we have that ability is the degree that we can accomplish even ONE of those things. I woudl LOVE to be able to do all of these things all of the time. But because of my weak, sinful nature, I can only obey to the degree that i have the strength. That is what i mean by obedience comes from the heart. As God heals our hearts, our capacity for love and selflessness increases.

But it is a slow process contigent on the Grace from God. It's just as Paul said "Why do i do that that i do not want to do and that that I want to do, I cannot. For it is sin that lives in me." Then he goes on to say that it is by the grace of God that brings him more into obedience. Every time i try to "obey" God, it backfires. Whenever i say I'm going to do something in God's will, i almost always end up inadvertantly doing the opposite. God is trying to show me to let Him to the healing and my response will come from my healed heart than from my own will. It is not a choice. It is a response from the Holy Spirit. Christianity is a paradox. So paradoxically by admitting i cannot obey, I am giving GOD the opportunity to bring me into obedience.

[Royo]

The will of obedience and the power to perform the obedient act come from God.  Through what?  Faith, and an active obedience.
Quote from Allinall
__________________________________________________

Since OBEDIENCE is so very important, and it is, I wish to share something the Holy Spirit revealed to me.

"So He said, "come." And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.
But when he saw that the wind was boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink he cried out, "Lord, save me."
And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him, and said to him, "oh you of little faith, why did you doubt?" [Matt. 14.29-31].

What many had told me in reference to this scripture, is that we need to have faith, and keep our eyes on Jesus. Which is true. But the Holy Spirit showed a deeper meaning also.
Peter did what is not possible for man to do: HE WALKED ON WATER! How, and why?
The HOW is by the power of God, of course. The WHY is what is important to see here. WHY did God give to Peter the power to walk on water?
Jesus, who is God in the flesh, gave a commandent to Peter. He told Peter, "come." Then, the moment Peter was WILLING tO OBEY the commandment of God, he received from God the POWER TO OBEY the commandment of God.
As Allinall said, this was an ACTIVE faith. God gave him the power, but Peter had to be willing to obey, and then take that step of obedience, and then he did what man should not be able to do. And it is this way with all our walk in Christ. We cannot do it ourself; but the moment we are WILLING TO OBEY what God is commanding us to do, He will give us the power to do what He has commanded us to do.
Jesus told His apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel, heal the sick, etc. But then He told them, "Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high." [Luke 24.49].  Then in Acts 1.8 He says, "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
Even Jesus did not begin his earthly ministry until the Holy Spirit had come upon Him.
This is also why He tells us in Matthew 6.33 to "seek FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you."
Without the POWER of God, by His Holy Spirit, we cannot do it. We will fail, even when we think we are not failing. For as Jesus said, "without Me, you can do nothing."

Bless you all my brothers and sisters in Christ.   Roy.

[Heidi]

But if that's true, Royo, then i can become perfect. Paul's statement about sin living in him is then an excuse. Paul had the wisdom to see the limitations of his humanity which is the FIRST STEP toward receiving forgiveness. I am always WILLING to obey but i do not always have the power. The degree that we are even attached to life itself is the degree of fear we have about losing it. Jesus was right when He told us that we had little faith. He did that with Peter, specifically to illustrate how little faith we have. We can't PRETEND to have faith. It is a process that comes from acknowledging how little faith we have. The truth is the ONLY thing that sets us free because it is from the truth that we receive power from God.

Again, it's a paradox. We have to see our weaknesses before God can give us strength. We are all attached to some form of greed, sloth, pride, wrath, lust, and envy. We can't just get rid of them. All we can do is acknowledge them so God can take them away from us...only to the degree that we can bear it. I once read a phrase that i think sums it up beautifully. "God knows that we do most things in life for self-serving purposes. Jesus knows that we can only give Him a mustard seed of faith and He is satisfied. Once we have the humility to concede this, then God can fill in the gaps."