Romans 7

[Petro]

Why do the decisions we've made tend to go the way of the dodo bird in a short period of time?  Because I believe we accept the full responsibility for the change.  "I can do it" or "I must do it!"  I reject that!  I can't do it, and I mustn't do it!  Rather, I must obey my God.  I must see these behavioral changes that He does invoke as obedience factors in my life.  I truly believe that obedience is the door by which, God, through the power of His Spirit, and the incorporation of His word, conforms us into the image of His Son.  It is God's work, God's power and it is for God's pleasure.  Hence, it's God's responsibility.  Amen?

Good post Royo!

Allinall,

I find myself agreeing with you, I may have disgreed with you earlier on another post but I see, this is exactly what the truth of this matter is, the natural man, may not be able to receive the things of God, nor undertsnad them, but God who gives hearing to hear and eyes to perceive can begin a work in anyone, who when they hear can trust and obey, this is definitely a begining that never ends, because this work is of faith; from faith unto more faith, like learning to walk as a babe, walking begins with one step, and since the Spirit never quits but perseveres the end of which is to conform everyone God has elected in the image of His dear Son.

Amen I say, and I do thank Him for making a good choice in choosing them who do trust and obey..

Blessings,
Petro

[Royo]

But if that's true, Royo, then i can become perfect.
Quote from Heidi.
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Yes, Heidi, you can become perfect. Not only CAN you become perfect, the Word of God commands you to become perfect.
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." [ Matt. 5.48 ]. Also, "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary priciples of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." [Heb. 6.1].
I have had people tell me, "that's not what it means." Well, that's what it says. Just HOW perfect is God commanding us to be in Matt. 5.48? As perfect "as your Father which is in heaven."
Someone here said Adam and Eve never existed. Yet God, in His Word, says they did. Someone says that we can't be perfect, and yet God in His Word commands it. There is a lot in the Word of God that some people do not want to accept, for whatever reason. I believe, 'God said it, I believe it, that settles it.'

Now I realize some things, like the timing of the rapture, etc., can be interpreted differently by different people. But when it comes to a straitforward command of God, it is usually only interpreted differently because someone does not want to accept the truth God spoke.

Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also...." [John 14.12]. The greatest, and most important, "work" that Jesus did, was to live a sinless life. Without that great work, He could not have been our Savior.

Now, Heidi, if you will look again at what I have already posted in this thread, you will see that I say that this is not something we can do out of our own power. It MUST BE DONE by the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
If you say that it is not possible for the Holy Spirit to work in my life where I can reach the point where I live perfectly, (sinlessly), then you are saying God is not powerful enough to be able to do this.
Sin comes from the "old man", or self. Paul said the old man has to be crucified with Christ. And Paul himself reached this point. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me..."[Gal. 2.20]. In this verse the "I" and "me" being refered to here is the soul-being Paul. The old man, or self.
God sees us as being in Christ because of His shed blood, but we do not instantly become perfect the day God comes to live in us.That is a "glory to glory" thing that happens over time as the Holy Spirit works in our life to make us over into the "image of His Son." But with many that never happens, for various reasons. And with some it happens more quickly than with others. It depends on our committment and willingness to obey. "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." [Rom. 12.1]. Paul is pleading, (beseeching), Christians to do this. But very few really do, as the Word says. "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few." [Matt. 9.37]. That is why when we look at church history, certain ones stand out so much; because they were WILLING to give their all for God. They heeded the call of Romans 12.1.

God's blessing on us all as we seek Him.      Roy.  

[Heidi]

Even Paul wasn't perfect, Royo. God left the thorn in his side, specifically to keep him humble. No one had more faith than Paul. If we're perfect, then we will be worshipped right along with Christ. Jesus was saying that to CONVICT us.

It is paramount that we use discernment when knowing if we are led by the spirit or our own egos. If certain beliefs and attitudes lead me more toward the fruits of the spirit, then I know I'm going in the right direction. The fruits of the spirit are peace, joy, patience, HUMILITY, love, etc. The things that are NOT fruits of the spirit are boastfulness, arrogance, jealousy, impatience, deception, etc. The notion that we can be perfect is not in any way humble. What makes us perfect is THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, period. Only when you see the degree of your own sin, Royo, will you see the impossibility of becoming perfect. Any time we call attention to our goodness, any thing we buy for ourselves that isn't a need, any overeating, any self-deception (which includes thinking we are perfect), any covetous desire, any jealousy of someone more spiritually mature, any selfish anger when we have been offended, any anger at God, any fear, and on and on and on. We are all riddled with sin, most of it unacknowledged. Paul's beautiful and wise statement gives his purification to the grace of God. The rest of the things that come out of him come from his sinful nature which he acknowledged, he will ALWAYS have. He who humbles himself will be exhalted and he who exhalts himself will be humbled.

[Royo]

Heidi, you are twisting things. What are you talking about when you say "only when I see the degree of my own sin"?

I never said I was perfect; I was stating what the Word of God says about it. If you have a problem with the Word of God, then take it up with the Author, instead of trying to start a debate with me. I don't want to debate, and will not.

His blessings upon you.  Roy.

[Allinall]

But if that's true, Royo, then i can become perfect. Paul's statement about sin living in him is then an excuse. Paul had the wisdom to see the limitations of his humanity which is the FIRST STEP toward receiving forgiveness.

Royo is right Heidi!  We can be perfected.  We all know that while on earth, we are progressively sanctified, but are also considered to be sanctified by God.  Why? Because, again, the work is His.  If He said he would do it then it is as good as done.  Paul's statement is not an excuse, but a reality.  Paul's dilemma is the same as ours.  There is the perfecting work of God and the destructive waste of self.  Is it any wonder that Paul cries out to God then:

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Paul's understanding of the weaknesses of his flesh as opposed to the desire of his mind weren't even a step to forgiveness.  He was forgiven when he asked from a repentant heart.  His understanding lies deeper.  He couldn't obey.  He wanted to, but couldn't because of the warring of his members.  I find it interesting how the Psalmist in Psalm 119:25 relates something very similar:

My soul clings to the dust;
   give me life according to your word!

The wording in the Hebrew here is very interesting.  He says literally, that his soul has the "full-nelson" on the dead man.  That dust is the word used to describe a decomposing flesh.  He said he clings with great vigor to a dead flesh - then asks for God to give Him life.  It is interesting also, that he makes great strides in determining, and committing to obeying God's word in his life in the verses prior.  The very first struggle he faces is with himself.  His flesh.  

The heart with which we desire to obey, is the same heart that is considered to be deceitful, wicked, and unknowable.  I think it helps here to understand what is meant by "heart" in the bible.  To the Jew, the heart wasn't the emotional seat, but the intellectual.  It was the totallity of the inner being, and the center of reason.  That understanding carries over into the Greek understanding of the word as well.  For all practical intents and purposes, it is the mind.  Paul said that he served God with his mind, and sin with his flesh.  Was he lying or confused?  Hardly!  Rather, he'd learned the importance of "taking captive every thought to the obedience of Christ" and keeping his "heart with all diligence, for out of it are the issues of life."  The desire to obey came from the reforming work of God's word in his mind, as it does with us.  It is the mind of God, not my mind.  That is, I reflect God's mind, not my own.  My mind is imperfect.  God's is perfect, and is in the process of perfecting my own mind.  Will I ever reach perfection?  Yes!  When I am brought home, removed from the very presence of sin, and glorified, conformed to the image of that blessed Son.  And only then.  

The notion that we can be perfect is not in any way humble. What makes us perfect is THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, period.

Only if we take responsibilty or credit for that working of God!  And the blood of Christ justifies me.  It is the work of the Spirit through the word that does the perfecting work:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

and...

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
  Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
  But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Ephesians 4:11-15

It is also important to understand what is meant by being "perfect."  It is being competent, or complete, wanting nothing.   It is to be mature in Christ.  This isn't a prideful claim of being great, but being conformed into a proper reflection of our Lord and Savior to the witness of those who do not know Him:

but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;

1 Peter 3:15

It is all to His glory - not ours.  Our glory comes in heaven, and is laid at the feet of the One worthy of that glory.  

Only when you see the degree of your own sin, Royo, will you see the impossibility of becoming perfect.

It is in seeing the degree of our sin, that we realize our ineptitude.  It is in seeing this sin that we revel in the work of our God to transform our minds and our lives to reflect Him:

I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.  Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Romans 12:1-2

He who humbles himself will be exhalted and he who exhalts himself will be humbled.

Amen!  But remember, this perfecting is a maturing that God brings about in our lives.  It is attainable, and will be completed in glory.  It isn't a badge of honor that we can take pride in and say "I'm perfect!"  To the contrary!  The individual who is being perfected will see only his sin and weakness, and his need for God.

[Allinall]

Allinall,

I find myself agreeing with you, I may have disgreed with you earlier on another post but I see, this is exactly what the truth of this matter is, the natural man, may not be able to receive the things of God, nor undertsnad them, but God who gives hearing to hear and eyes to perceive can begin a work in anyone, who when they hear can trust and obey, this is definitely a begining that never ends, because this work is of faith; from faith unto more faith, like learning to walk as a babe, walking begins with one step, and since the Spirit never quits but perseveres the end of which is to conform everyone God has elected in the image of His dear Son.

Amen I say, and I do thank Him for making a good choice in choosing them who do trust and obey..

Blessings,
Petro

Amen!  I agree with your concept of our growing faith.  That is evident in the life of Abraham.  He was a man of incredible faith, yet that faith was a journey.  He began with just enough to leave when called out of Ur of the Chaldees, grew to a saving faith, and then to a living faith.  I think sometimes we think of our faith as insufficient when we should see it as immature.  This fits with scripture.  Take for example the times that Christ said "Oh ye of little faith."  He was denoting the amount of faith at those times, but rather the maturity of that faith.  It was little, not grown.  What's more, you can see that faith mature in the writings of those to whom He said it!  

Thank you for that post brother!

[Heidi]

Of course i agree with God's word, Royo. But there are many different interpretations of God's Word. I don't even see the degree of my own sin! Every time i confess my known sins, there is always another layer underneath. There may be days when i feel complete in God's love, but there will always be days when i won't. When will any of us know we are mature? All I can know is that i'm hopefully more mature today that I was yesterday.

You took issue with me, Royo, when you said that we CAN become perfect. I didn't accuse you of debating. Why are you accusing me of debating? I think this is an extremely important topic that warrants exploring. If you don't want anyone to disagree with you then that makes communication difficult. If others just say what you want them to, then what's the point of listening to them? The reason I said that you don't see the degree of your own sin, is that if you did, how can you even say that we can come NEAR to being perfect? We all grow in Christ, that's a given. But i take issue with the fact that we can become perfect.  

[Mr. 5020]

You took issue with me, Royo, when you said that we CAN become perfect.

Heidi, Royo presented you with a Biblical proof text (Matthew 5:48, respectively).  Then Alinall presented you with more (Ephesians 4:11-15 and 2 Timothy 3:16-17, respectively).

Here's the way any American conversation (and debate) works.  You answer their point, then you make your own.  Without responding to their proof texts, and just making your own opinion, you are forfeiting the debate of this thread.

[Heidi]

But i did answer their proof texts. I just don't agree with their interpretation of the texts. Even with God's power we can never become perfect.  The Holy Spirit is always working in us to transform us to the likeness of Christ, but we will NEVER reach perfection. Royo, not only said that we CAN become perfect but that it was a command of Jesus. I don't agree that that's what Jesus meant. I never said that our faith doesn't grow. I've always maintained that it is a slow process. I think we all agree on that. Where i disagree is that we can become perfect.  Royo seemd to get furious that i disagreed with him. It again just shows me how far away from perfection we all are.

[Royo]

Royo seemd to get furious that i disagreed with him.
Quote from Heidi.
_________________________________________________

Furious? I only get mad maybe twice a year. But furious?
Never. And I never mind that people disagree with me. That is the nature of things.
But when someone twists something I say, I will try to correct them. Once. Then you are free to twist all you want.
And assume and judge the intent of my heart, as you have done with the above statement.
Goodbye Heidi, and please do not respond.

[Heidi]

The "goodbye" does indeed show me that you are furious. I'm sorry you don't give people another chance. Jesus said to forgive not once, but 70 times. I do not feel at all forgiven by you. The fact that you're trying to control my response shows me an incredible lack of forgiveness. I'm sorry for you, Royo, but i do forgive you.

[Royo]

The "goodbye" does indeed show me that you are furious. I'm sorry you don't give people another chance. Jesus said to forgive not once, but 70 times. I do not feel at all forgiven by you. The fact that you're trying to control my response shows me an incredible lack of forgiveness. I'm sorry for you, Royo, but i do forgive you.
Quote from Heidi.
____________________________________________________

Heidi, there is nothing to forgive. I was never mad at you. Nor was I "furious" at you. I just did not want to debate with you about anything. Many times I enjoy fellowship with you, and agree with what you say. And some times I don't agree with you. (as is the case with most people I know). Nobody agrees on all things. So, as Christians, we agree to disagree.
I have nothing to forgive you for because you have in no way done me wrong. You just didn't agree. Yes, I think you may have twisted what I said, and judged my heart and thinking, but you did not offend me.
You are my sister in the Lord, and I love you for that reason, at least. But I also like you in a lot of ways. So let us just agree to disagree, and put this behind us. And let us love one another, as Jesus commanded us to do.

Your brother in Christ.    Roy.

[Heidi]

Sounds good to me.

[Allinall]

But i did answer their proof texts. I just don't agree with their interpretation of the texts. Even with God's power we can never become perfect.  The Holy Spirit is always working in us to transform us to the likeness of Christ, but we will NEVER reach perfection. Royo, not only said that we CAN become perfect but that it was a command of Jesus. I don't agree that that's what Jesus meant. I never said that our faith doesn't grow. I've always maintained that it is a slow process. I think we all agree on that. Where i disagree is that we can become perfect.  Royo seemd to get furious that i disagreed with him. It again just shows me how far away from perfection we all are.

Important note here Heidi: if you answer a proof text without proof it is merely opinion.  Now, at the risk of sounding like atheist...let me 'splain.  There are many ways people "interpret" scripture, but there is only one interpretation.  But what we are dealing with here isn't an interpretation.  It is a translation.  The word used in the passage Royo gave is the Greek word teleios.  It means complete, wanting nothing, adult, and mature.  Other proof passages of this word in this usage are:

that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.  Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.


Philippians 3:10-15

Paul states that he had not attained the perfection of the resurrection - the glorification I mentioned prior, but that he, and other mature believers (note this is the word "perfect" in the KJV) are to think this way.  Humbly.  And then...

To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.

Colossians 1:27-29

And...

Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always struggling on your behalf in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

Colossians 4:12

And again...

Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.  If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.

James 1:2-5

It is important to understand Heidi that this is not an interpretation.  It is a teaching.  I do not give this in contention, but to teach.  If we do not heed scripture, we are relegated to our own opinions.  This is no opinion my sister.  This is truth.  

[Allinall]

It is a good discussion and without contention argueing, confusion ,strife, etc.
Each post and reply has added to and not taken away or diverted the subject.

I pray that this thread doesn't become a disappointment to our brethren who had such a blessing out of it thus far.