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December 06, 2023, 03:10:54 AM

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Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
286662 Posts in 27568 Topics by 3790 Members
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1  Prayer / Answered Prayer / Kelsey Wolverton - young mother who had seisures on: September 22, 2006, 04:11:57 PM
I want to thank all of you who prayed for Kelsey.  She is out of the hospital and back home with her husband and baby.

She's had gran mul seisures since she was 13 and has them frequently.

Strange thing is the doctors concluded that these seisures are not epileptic. They told her they were phsychological.  The seisures are real and she still has to take the medicine, but they want her in counceling.

They want to redo the tests in Dec.  Again, take her off all of her medicine and let her have 3 convulsions.

I don't understand.

They are not saying that she is doing it deliberately or faking them. They are very real, but the docs seem to think that they are from something she has blocked and does not know how to deal with.

Before her father was saved he drank heavily and beat her and her mother and nobody really knows all the abuse.

IF the doctors are right then perhaps that's where it stems from.

I just don't understand how seisures of that magnitude can be caused phsychologically.

Anyway,  I want to thank all of you for your prayers for her and when you think about her please pray for her.

God Bless,
2  Prayer / Prayer Requests / Re: PLEASE PRAY NOW - CONVULSIONS WILL NOT STOP FOR YOUNG MOTHER on: September 18, 2006, 09:37:46 AM
thank you so much and all who are praying!

God Bless
3  Prayer / Prayer Requests / Re: PLEASE PRAY NOW - CONVULSIONS WILL NOT STOP FOR YOUNG MOTHER on: September 17, 2006, 11:32:37 PM
Thank you from my most grateful heart and please forgive me for the hurtful feelings I was starting to have toward you.

I am sorry.

4  Prayer / Prayer Requests / Re: PLEASE PRAY NOW - CONVULSIONS WILL NOT STOP FOR YOUNG MOTHER on: September 17, 2006, 11:23:34 PM
I posted in each of these forums because I was hoping to get as many people praying as quickly as possible.

Since there are generally many people reading different forums at the same time.

Please forgive me for being so inappropriate.

Rhonda Ramsey
5  Fellowship / You name it!! / Re: Underground History of American Education - MUST READ! on: September 17, 2006, 11:16:58 PM
I thank you for the response. God bless you for your help of those families. I would that there were more out there who were as you are instead of condemning families who do not have someone helping them to find the resources.

And there are many brother.

God Bless you,

6  Prayer / Prayer Requests / PLEASE PRAY NOW - CONVULSIONS WILL NOT STOP FOR YOUNG MOTHER on: September 17, 2006, 10:57:33 PM
My newphew's wife, named kelsey Wolverton (22 yrs old) was put in the hospital a few days ago and they took her off of all of her medicine to throw her into convulsions.

They wanted her to have 3 so that they could find one medicine that would control her severe (grand mal) convulsions and since NONE of her many medicine's were controlling them and she kept having constant breakthroughs.

We were told just a very short time ago  (approximately 9pm central time Sept. 17th) that she is having horrible convulsions one right after another and they cannot bring her out of them.

She has a 2 yr old son.

PLEASE PRAY NOW, and call anyone you know who will pray for her and her family. Your church prayer chain and family and friends.

Please, she needs AS MANY PEOPLE praying for her as we can possibly get to pray.

I know this may be against the rules, but I'm going to post this in every forum. Please wait a few days to delete them.

God Bless all of you who pray and get others to pray.

I will post the update in the answered prayer forum as soon as I know how she's doing and that she's stable.

Rhonda Ramsey
7  Fellowship / You name it!! / Re: Underground History of American Education - MUST READ! on: September 17, 2006, 08:32:19 PM
Brother Roger,

I am a bit upset, though in places I agree with you.

However, you have not taken into account single mothers or fathers or even grandparents who are the sole source of income for many children.

Homeschooling is quite out of the question and certainly private or  private christian schooling in most cases.

I do not mean to offend you, but you've obviously not been down the road many of us single parents have been.

I posted the site so that parents could be aware of what they're children are being taught and what many of us also were taught.

I think that it just may benefit many of us to understand where our secular learning may have created problems with knowing how to seperate the "worldly" thinking and the christian thinking mixed up in many of us.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but perhaps I'm not either.


8  Fellowship / You name it!! / Underground History of American Education - MUST READ! on: September 10, 2006, 12:44:14 PM
This isn't just the past. It's bringing us up-to-date, and I
don't like it. I doubt any of you will either.

We can't afford to look the other way and pretend we don't see or
know what is happening to our children in our public schools.

Now you (WE) are about to find out what many others Know!

Parents and Grandparents please Read this.  It's time to open
our eyes. Our children and grandchildren, nieces and nephews
and the children of those you love are at stake. 

The entire book is FREE and online.

You can purchase the book if you like, but it's all here online
for you to read and share with others.  And I pray that you do!

Underground History of American Education

A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation
Into The Problem Of Modern Schooling

At Last –

An Award–Winning Teacher Pulls Back the Curtain to reveal
the actual "Fourth Purpose" for which Mass Forced Schooling
was conceived.

There are 18 Chapters to this online book. 
I am posting the first 6, but not the the book. You'll have to
read it yourself.  I'm only posting enough for those who
are interested or may soon be - to get a real grasp of
what is going on.

You'll have to read it for yourself and in your own time.
I'm just putting in enough to wake up those who will
be awaken.




The shocking possibility that dumb people don’t exist in sufficient
numbers to warrant the millions of careers devoted to tending
them will seem incredible to you.

Yet that is my central proposition:

the mass dumbness which justifies official schooling first had
to be dreamed of; it isn’t real.

Bianca, You Animal, Shut Up!
I Quit, I Think
The New Individualism
School As Religion
He Was Square Inside And Brown
The New Dumbness
Putting Pedagogy To The Question
Author’s Note

Chapter 1

The Way It Used To Be


Whoever controls the image and information of the past
determines what and how future generations will think;
whoever controls the information and images of the present
determines how those same people will view the past.

— George Orwell, 1984 (1949)

Take at hazard one hundred children of several educated
generations and one hundred uneducated children of the people
and compare them in anything you please;

in strength, in agility, in mind, in the ability to acquire
knowledge, even in morality—and in all respects you are
startled by the vast superiority on the side of the children
of the uneducated.

— Count Leo Tolstoy, "Education and Children" (1862)

A Nation From The Bottom Up
You Had To Do It Yourself
No Limit To Pain For Those Who Allow It
The Art Of Driving
Two Approaches To Discipline
The Schools Of Hellas
The Fresco At Herculaneum
The Seven Liberal Arts
The Platonic Ideal
Oriental Pedagogy
Counter-Attack On Democracy
How Hindu Schooling Came To America (I)
How Hindu Schooling Came To America (II)
How Hindu Schooling Came To America (III)
Braddock’s Defeat
Ben Franklin
George Washington
Montaigne’s Curriculum

Chapter 2


An Angry Look At Modern Schooling

The secret of American schooling is that it doesn’t teach
the way children learn and it isn’t supposed to.

Today’s corporate sponsors want to see their money used
in ways to line up with business objectives....

This is a young generation of corporate sponsors and they
have discovered the advantages of building long-term
relationships with educational institutions.

— Suzanne Cornforth of Paschall & Associates, public
relations consultants.
As quoted in The New York Times, July 15, 1998

A Change In The Governing Mind
Extending Childhood
The Geneticist’s Manifesto
Participatory Democracy Put To The Sword
Bad Character As A Management Tool
An Enclosure Movement For Children
The Dangan
Occasional Letter Number One
Change Agents Infiltrate
Waking Up Angry

Chapter Three


Eyeless In Gaza

Something strange has been going on in government schools,
especially where the matter of reading is concerned.

The deeds were monstrous, but the doer [Adolf Eichmann]....
was quite ordinary, commonplace, and neither demonic
nor monstrous.

There was no sign in him of firm ideological convictions or
of specific evil motives, and the only notable characteristic
one could detect in his past behavior as well as in his behavior
during the trial...    was something entirely negative;
it was not stupidity but thoughtlessness....

Might not the problem of good and evil, our faculty for
telling right from wrong, be connected with our faculty
for thought

— Hannah Arendt, The Life of the Mind

The School Edition
Intellectual Espionage
Looking Behind Appearances
The Sudbury Valley School
Bootie Zimmer
False Premises
A System Of State Propaganda
The Ideology Of The Text
The National Adult Literacy Survey
Name Sounds, Not Things
The Meatgrinder Classroom
The Ignorant Schoolmaster
Frank Had A Dog; His Name Was Spot
The Pedagogy of Literacy
Dick And Jane

Chapter 4


I Quit, I Think

The master’s face goes white, then red. His mouth
tightens and opens and spit flies everywhere....
What will I do, boys?
Flog the boy, sir.
Till the blood spurts, sir.

— Frank McCourt, Angela’s Ashes.
Writing of Ireland’s schools as
they were in the 1940s.

Wadleigh, The Death School
Dr. Caleb Gattegno, Expert
Hector Of The Feeble-Mind
Hector Isn't The Problem
One Lawyer Equals 3,000 Reams of Paper
The Great Transformation
Education As A Helix Sport
I'm Outta Here!

Chapter 5


True Believers and the Unspeakable Chautauqua

A very small group of young psychologists around the
turn of the century were able to create and market a
system for measuring human talent that has permeated
American institutions of learning and influenced such
fundamental social concepts as:
democracy, sanity, justice, welfare, reproductive rights,
and economic progress.

In creating, owning, and advertising this social
technology the testers created themselves as

— Joanne Brown, The Definition of a Profession:

The Authority of Metaphor in the History of
Intelligence Testing

I have undertaken to get at the facts from the point of view
of the business men—citizens of the community who, after all,
pay the bills and, therefore, have a right to say what they
shall have in their schools.

— Charles H. Thurber, from an address at the Annual Meeting
of the National Education Association, July 9, 1897

Munsterberg And His Disciples
The Prototype Is A Schoolteacher
Teachers College Maintains The Planet
A Lofty, Somewhat Inhuman Vision
Rain Forest Algebra
Godless, But Not Irreligious
An Insider’s Insider
Compulsion Schooling
De-Moralizing School Procedure
William Torrey Harris
Cardinal Principles
The Unspeakable Chautauqua

chapter 6


The Lure Of Utopia

Every morning when you picked up your newspaper you
would read of some new scheme for saving the world...

soon all the zealots, all the Come-Outers, all the
transcendentalists of Boston gathered at the Chardon
Street Chapel and harangued each other for
three mortal days.

They talked on nonresistance and the Sabbath reform,
of the Church and the Ministry, and they arrived at no

"It was the most singular collection of strange specimens
of humanity that was ever assembled,"

wrote Edmund Quincy, and Emerson was even more

"Madmen, madwomen, men with beards, Dunkers,
Muggletonians, Come-Outers, Groaners, Agrarians,
Seventh-day Baptists, Quakers, Abolitionists,
Calvinists, Unitarians, and Philosophers, all came
successively to the top and seized their moment,
if not their hour, wherein to chide, or pray, or preach
or protest....

There was some-thing artificial about the Chardon
Street debates, there was a hothouse atmosphere in
the chapel.

There was too much suffering fools gladly,
there was too much talk, too much display of
learning and of wit, and there was, for all the
talk of tolerance, an unchristian spirit.

— Henry Steele Commager, Theodore Parker

So Fervently Do We Believe
The Necessity Of Detachment
Enlarging The Nervous System
Producing Artificial Wants
The Parens Patriae Powers
The Plan Advances
Children’s Court
Mr.Young’s Head Was Pounded To Jelly
William Rainey Harper
Death Dies
The Three Most Popular Books
No Place To Hide
The Irony Of The Safety Lamp
9  Theology / Bible Study / Re: Broken and Contrite Spirit Part 3 of 3 on: September 03, 2006, 05:13:27 PM

If the heart is smashed by God, he does not restore it. He does
not patch it up. He gives you a clean heart!

He brings us to a crisis as He brought David to a crisis. He brought
the word of the Lord to him and He brings the word of the Lord
to us, ‘You are the man!’

God heals the heart that He breaks. He heals the broken hearted.
He does not heal those who have self-pity. He does not heal those
who are caught and want to be sorry, or want to be seen repenting.

I spent years as an evangelist, going every week to churches to
preach and to make an alter call.

People would come down to the alter with tears. My shirt sleeves
would be wet with their tears.

I have gone back to the same place twelve months later and
found nothing.

Their hearts were not broken and neither was mine.

I was elated with my shirts soaking wet with tears, thinking they
were tears of repentance. It was bologna!

It was the other gospel!

We worked on the emotions of people. We used psychology.
We made them feel sorry. We made them feel hopeful. We did
anything just to get them down to a place where we could
see something.

God looks on the inside of man. God looks on the inside of you
and I and He is not fooled one bit.

The evidence of a broken heart is that there is compassion for
the brethren. There is mercy, patience, and long suffering
for them.

Isaiah 6:1, "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord
sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the
temple." It will break your heart when you see Him as He really
is, not as the vain imaginations that you have about Him.

It will break your heart when you see His holiness and discover
your own unholiness.

God hones in and shows you the hypocrisy, the vanity, the hardness,
and the deceitfulness of your heart when you see Him.

Then you will die. Your heart will be broken. God will not despise the
heart that is broken by Him. When he saw him up there, he said in
verse three, "Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole
earth is full of his glory."

God is holy. Holy means clean, pure, truthful, honest, and
everything that our deceitful heart is not.

When God broke Isaiah’s heart, Isaiah said, ‘Woe is me, I am as
a man undone.’

He was a prince and he was a prophet, but no matter what
God has called us to, we still need to see Him.

He is holy.

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of
unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips:
for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
" [Isaiah 6:5]

Psalm 107:20, "He sent his word, and healed them…"

The same word that breaks your heart will heal you. Thank God
that He comes as a healer.

In Luke 4:18 He says, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because
he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath
sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the
captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty
them that are bruised.

" He says, ‘That broken and contrite heart I will not despise.
I will not reject it. I will take it and make it into
a clean heart.’

When David found out that he was the man, he said,

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a
right spirit within me." [Psalm 51:10]

We have sung this so many times, but we have to hear God
saying to us, ‘My son, give me your heart! Give it to me!

I don’t want your offerings. I don’t want your sacrifices. I don’t
want your ministry. I don’t want your service. I want your heart!’

This is the gospel message to us. This is the good news.

We have been called by His name out of the house of Babylon
to have our hearts broken. We couldn’t get them broken in the
house of Babylon. There was no hope for us.

We had to work on emotions and the seeing of our eyes, but God has
called us to a spiritual house.

He says to us, ‘A broken and a contrite heart I will not despise.’


Father God, we bow before you. Break our hearts, oh Lord.

Not in an emotional way, Lord, but take us into the closet and
break us. Break us, God, we pray.

We thank you, Lord, that you have called us to be
 people with broken hearts and contrite spirits.

In Jesus name I pray. Amen.
10  Theology / Bible Study / Re: Broken and Contrite Spirit Part 2 of 3 on: September 03, 2006, 05:08:41 PM
Romans 1:21, "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not
as God, neither were thankful…"

It does not say that it was when they did not know God, or when they
were in sin, or when they were in the kingdom of darkness.

These people knew God. We are a people who know God. We are
known of God. We testify to everybody that we know God. These
people knew God.

We are these people, "[Who] became vain in their imaginations, and
their foolish heart was darkened."

They became vain in their imaginations. We have these imaginations
of who we are going to be and what we are going to be, but have
not put ourselves under the Word of God. It is a hammer and a
sword that would divide and separate the clean from the unclean.

We are at risk. We are sitting on the edge.

We are making another trip into the valley of decision. Thank God
that His mercy has enabled us to make many trips into the valley of
decision. We thank the Lord for the many mercies He has shown us,
but we know that the time is short.

In fact, I believe it has run out. We have to ask God to break our
hearts now.

Psalm 41:5, "Mine enemies speak evil of me, When shall he die,
and his name perish?" Have you spoken evil of God’s children lately?
Have you written them off? What you are to God is what you are
to His people.

You cannot say that you love God if you do not love His people.

You cannot pontificate about God if you do not have the compassion
and the capacity to have mercy, grace, patience, and long suffering
with His people. The people who are like that have never had their
hearts broken by God.

Psalm 41: 6-7, "And if he come to see me, he speaketh vanity:
his heart gathereth iniquity to itself; when he goeth abroad, he
telleth it. All that hate me whisper together against me: against
me do they devise my hurt."

This is an unbroken heart operating in the sphere of religiosity,
pontificating and spouting out the doctrines, precepts, and lines.

If their heart is not broken, God is not impressed. If God is not impressed,
it is all in vain. It is vain repetition, hearsay, rumors, and slander if the
heart has not been broken.

The heart is full of vanity. It can even be spiritual vanity.

One of them is, for some of us, how long we have been with God.

It is a stink in God’s nostril when we claim a length of service to God,
as if we are entitled to a ribbon. It is vanity when we talk about the
trials and tribulations that God has allowed us to go through.

It is all vanity.

It is a heart that has not been broken, feeding on his or her
own experiences.

If anybody has been guilty of that it has been me.

I have been privileged to have had so many spiritual experiences that
I am ashamed.

I have had so many spiritual experiences, but they do not mean a thing
because it was only for that day and for that time.

The apostle Paul said that he saw all these wonderful things that
could not be uttered. Sometimes we have seen things and we couldn’t
be quick enough to utter them!

We want the world to know what we have seen in the Spirit.

It is all vanity.

Experiences, visions, and revelations turn into vanity
"when we rest our relationship in God"     on those experiences.

Psalm 12:1, "Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful
fail from among the children of men.

" It says that in the last days there will be a great falling away and the l
ove of many will wax cold.

We will not be surprised if the congregations get smaller. I would be
amazed if they didn’t. We are not looking for the numbers. God is
not looking for the numbers. He is looking for the remnant.

He is calling a people from out of a people. We are getting smaller
and smaller as the days go by. My prayer is, ‘Oh, God, keep me in
the hollow of your hand, and as the apple of your eye. Don’t let
me be taken out!’

I have discovered something since coming this way. I have
discovered that my boundaries have been drawn in. The realm
of what I could do and couldn’t do is diminishing to the point of
where I can go and where I can’t go.

I do not have a miserable life, I have a very happy life.

I do not find anything miserable about serving God. I do not find it
miserable when God tightens my borders up. I feel more secure. I feel
more that God loves me and is putting His trust in me to obey His voice,
and to obey His word.

My prayer is that God would tighten our borders, especially in the
realm of the tongue.

That little member of our body that continually uses vanity to speak
vanity about our experiences, our knowledge, our understanding, and
our length of service in ‘The Move’ with God.

God wants to break everything. He wants to break OUR membership.
He wants to loose us from OUR understanding and OUR ways.

 A heart that is not broken cannot fulfil the plan of God.

God will despise a heart that is not broken. We need to
understand this.

Psalm 101:1-4, "I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee,
O LORD, will I sing. I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way.
O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house
with a perfect heart. I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes:
I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.
A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person."

We see what happens to a broken heart.

We are beginning to see what is not relevant and what is no longer
permissible. "I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way… I will walk
within my house…

" It is so easy to walk in the congregation. It is so easy to walk
around the campground with that religious garment wrapped
around us.

It is in the house, the physical house and the spiritual house,
that God is looking at and watching.

He is looking for that broken heart that He will not despise.

Jeremiah 17:1, "The sin of Judah is written with a pen of iron, and
with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their heart,
and upon the horns of your altars."

What an indictment!

The sin of Judah is impressed, pointed, heavy, and it is written on
the table of their heart. We see that God had already poured this
sin in your heart. He put it there because that is what He wants to
break. It is not the sin that is in your minds, or in your emotions that
He is dealing with right now, it is the one that is in your heart that
God wants to break.

Jeremiah 17:5, "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that
trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth
from the LORD.

" God has had such mercy on us. How often would we have
come under this category. Even today we may come under this
very word of God and He would say; "Cursed be the man that trusteth
in man, and maketh flesh his arm."

The record shows that people drift.

I remember in the 1960’s attending prayer meetings all night,
every night for eighteen months. People would come off their
shift and come straight to prayer meeting. I remember the prayers,
the tears, the confessions, and the putting things right, night
after night.

Some people told me that they would see the house shaking.

There were people laying out on the floor and on the stairways
crying out to God. Some couldn’t get up because they were pinned
by their sins. God was breaking, breaking, breaking. He was coming
for the prayers that we had prayed, ‘Break me, oh God! Make me,
mold me!’ He was breaking our hearts.

Today I can go into that city and cannot find five people whose
heart is still with the Lord.

When I talk to some of them, it is like it never happened. It is a puzzle
to me. I had seen them come straight from their night shift with a
glow on their face, and they couldn’t get in the house quick enough
to pray, but when I talk to them now, they say, ‘Oh, that,’ as if
nothing happened.

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
" [1 Corinthians 10:12]

Jeremiah 17:9,10 says: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and
desperately wicked: who can know it? I the LORD search the heart,
I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways,
and according to the fruit of his doings."

Isn’t it wonderful that God tells us that our heart is deceitful
and desperately wicked.

There is no hope unless the heart is broken by God.

11  Theology / Bible Study / Broken and Contrite Spirit Part 1 of 3 on: September 03, 2006, 04:46:59 PM
A Broken and a Contrite Heart

by Peter Newman

We are seekers after the truth. Many of us have been through many trials
and tribulations and up many spiritual cul-de-sacs because we are seekers of
the truth.

We are looking for the city whose builder and maker is God.

I feel that the word that God is trying to bring to us is the same word that
Nathan brought to David, when he said, "Thou art the man." [2 Samuel 12:7]

In our understanding, weaknesses, and carnality, we are always looking
somewhere else. We blame some other person, some other thing, some
other concept, or some other truth, but when God sends His word, He
sends it to the man whom He wants to hear it.

God is sending us a word because he wants us to hear that word.

When God says, ‘Thou art the man,’ He is saying, ‘You are all guilty.’ We are
all guilty of measuring according to our own understanding.

That is why His Word says, "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean
not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he
shall direct thy paths" [Proverbs 3:6-7]

We must NOT lean on "our own" understanding. It lets us down every time.
It makes a fool of us and it puts us out of the Spirit of God.

Psalm 51:17, "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit…" God wants to break
our spirit. He wants to BREAK the spirit that is enabling us to come to our conclusions, our measuring, and our understanding.

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, thou wilt not despise."

That tells us that God does despise some hearts, but He says that a broken
and contrite heart He will not despise.

I want to talk about a broken heart, but before I do, let me tell you why
we need one.

There are many books on the market that will tell you how to reach
holiness and how many steps to take to get there. There are many
concepts, precepts, and lines about holiness and righteousness which
we are called to.

We are called to be holy people. We are a holy people in the eyes of
God. He does not see us in darkness. He will not look at us in our carnality.
He will not look at us with our hypocrisy. He will only look at us in holiness.

I had a problem with holiness. It has always been a difficult subject with
me because I never really quite understood what it meant. I did not
know how to get holy. I had been up the mountain. I had fasted for forty
days. I had starved myself half to death and I didn’t find holiness, I found frustration.

I followed all of the big preachers. I read every book and every idea
on holiness and at the same time I still saw that sin that was not supposed
to have dominion over me, still had dominion over me.

It contradicted the very scriptures that I had read. It contradicted some
of the scriptures that I had preached from.

My life was an unholy life because I was full of sin.

I began to contemplate this and said to God, ‘What about holiness, God?
We are called to be holy. You have called us your people, a holy nation,
a royal priesthood. That is what you have called us and we are a mess.
By the word that we hear, we know that we are a mess.

You keep telling us that we are a mess. You keep telling us that we
don’t measure up to holiness. What is holiness? Don’t frustrate me anymore,
Lord, tell me what holiness is!’

Of course, God knows exactly what holiness is. He said, ‘I am holy.’
Then He said, ‘Be ye holy.’

I said, ‘No, I have tried it. I have measured everything up as to what
I think holiness should be and to what I feel holiness is and I am still
not holy.’

I have flashes of holiness when I feel like I can soar up to the heavens,
but it only lasts for a while.

What God told me He may not tell you, but He said, ‘I am holy. Be ye holy.
If you draw nigh to me, I will draw nigh to you. Except two walk together
they cannot be agreed.’

He spoke all these wonderful scriptures and I said, ‘Oh, thank you God!
Now I have got it! I have to get near to You!’

Now the problem is, how do I really walk with God?

We have a clue here when it says,

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit…" It is a broken spirit that He
wants. I cannot break my own spirit. I have to have somebody else to
break this spirit. The thing that God uses to break your spirit is the
Word of God.

"Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that
breaketh the rock in pieces?" [Jeremiah 23:29]

The Word of God is like a hammer. It will smash you to pieces. It will
contradict everything that you believe and everything that you have
to do or say. When God finishes with the Word, you will be as one
dumb before Him, with nothing to say.

Isaiah 57:15, "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth
eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with
him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of
the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

There is hope for us! It is the plan of God to revive the contrite spirit!

We are anticipating right from this moment on, that God is going to
do something to the contrite heart. He is working with the heart that,
up to now, he may have had to despise because it was not contrite or
willing to bow the knee to the Holy One of Israel. We have hope that
He will revive the spirit of the humble and the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:1-2, "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the
earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and
where is the place of my rest? For all those things hath mine hand made,
and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I
 look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth
at my word."

Zechariah 7:9-11, "Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,

Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every
man to his brother: and oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless,
the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against
his brother in your heart.

But they refused to hearken…" This was the word of the Lord to
His children to have mercy and compassion on their brethren. God
is interested in what you are saying to your brother. God is not
interested in what you say with your mouth.

He said, "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near
me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have
removed their heart far from me…"[Isaiah 29:13]

God is a God of the heart. He is the God of the inward man. He is not
impressed with what we say, but when we have compassion and mercy.

In John 17:21 Jesus prayed, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,"

Praise God, that day is coming. We are on the edge of it.

Unless you allow God to break your heart, you will go out of these meetings
the same way that you came in and God is going to despise you!

‘Enough is enough,’ saith the Lord! The time of playing third feast is over.

Many hear the word of the Lord, but they do not listen to it because
they hear it for somebody else.

The word of God is there to break our hearts. This word came through
Zechariah the prophet, but these were stubborn and rebellious people
who would not have their hearts broken by God’s word. They would
not submit themselves to the Word of God.

That is a heart that is not broken. That is one who will not bow the
knee to the word of God that comes into their heart. A heart that is
not broken is a heart that is full of deceit and vain imaginations.

Genesis 6:5, "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in
the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was
only evil continually."

That is what an unbroken heart is. It is full of vain imagination and it
is continually evil.

You may get aroused and come under some kind of conviction and
understanding in gatherings like this, but when you go out, because
you have not submitted your heart to the word of God and allowed
it to smash your concepts, precepts, and vain imaginations, they will
creep back in like a cancer.

How many times have we seen people come down to the alter,
very sincerely crying to God with tears coming from their eyes,
and they have their emotions touched by the Spirit of God but
never their hearts.

Romans 1:18-20, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the
truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of
God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even
his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

We are a people without excuse. Even if this is the first time you’ve
heard the word, now you are without excuse.

You may be wondering about this one and that one. Your imaginations
can take the word of God away from you.

Let there be an intensity and a discipline in these gatherings when we
hear the Word of God because it is the only thing that will smash your

It will not be the preacher. It will not be his delivery of the word
that will touch your hearts. It will be the Word of God, sent from
the throne of God, by the ministry that God has called.
12  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / The Rapture -You've got to see this, very short, but - The IMPACT is Phenomenal! on: August 31, 2006, 11:01:04 PM
You'll have to see this. The IMPACT is phenomenal!  You'll never forget it.

Share it with anyone you have access to. Feel free to copy and paste this and send it as is or put it in your own words.

It's a very short - like 1 minute video... It's amazing.
It does require sound, but it's not one of those freaky things.  You don't have to have the sound on, but it's better, to my way of thinking...
* link removed*

cc: moderators
13  Theology / Bible Study / Re: THE SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL IS ALIVE AND THRIVING - PART 2 OF 2 on: August 31, 2006, 07:39:02 PM



One ancient influence of this spirit in Christendom can be seen in the practice of presenting God to the people as a small baby in the arms of His mother, and encouraging prayer to her as a mediatress.

A second, more recent example, is use of Mother as an acceptable alternative to Father when addressing Jehovah God.

A third example is the increasing acceptance of women for ordination into the clergy (this is not say that women cannot be ordained)

Of course, the closer a church walks in the ways of the world, the greater will the previous list of social influences become apparent in it. Ordination of homosexuals is one such example. The only answer to such influences is total repentance and commitment to the Lord.

However, the most significant and potentially dangerous influence can come from not understanding the strategies that are back of spiritual warfare today.

The second conflict between Elijah and Jezebel is about to begin!

The Lord is apprehending a new generation of bond-servant leaders (both men and women) with hearts to raise up overcomers, to build the army of the Lord and to prepare the church for His return.

The spirit of Elijah will rest upon them to bring forth these end-time Elisha's. Because they have the now word of the Lord for His church, just as Elijah did for Israel in his day, they are going to be attacked by the Jezebel spirit.

God will allow this in order to test and teach His children to overcome. Thus, the more spiritual of saints can expect the assault of this spirit. Consider the Lords words to the church of Thyatira (Revelation 2:19-20):

I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first.

After such words of commendation, it would seem almost impossible to imagine anything amiss in such a church! However, the Lord goes on to say:

But I have this against you, that you "tolerate" the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bondservants astray. . . .

There is no higher calling for a believer in this life than that of a bond-servant for Christ.

It was the very best of the saints who were led astray; not by a woman, but by the prophetic evil spirit of Jezebel. The goal of its deception, shown in verse 24, was to subtly introduce the deep things of Satan to eventually corrupt and mislead the church.  It is not enough to serve the Lord with all of our heart; we must also be men and women of His presence. This is how we protect our hearts from error.

The real fault of the Thyatira church was the tolerance of its leadership to so called prophetic messages that were not from God. The elders failed to discern the spirit behind these revelations, and they did not judge their contents by the word of God. How do the more spiritual guard themselves from the spirit of Jezebel?



The place of victory over this spirit begins with godly character that is rooted in humility and submission.

First of all, submission to the Lord, and secondly, submission to those over us in the Lord.

It is particularly important for wives to honor the headship of their husband, and for single sisters to honor the oversight of their elders. The primary assault of Jezebel is against all godly male authority.

She seeks to manipulate leaders, whether in family oversight or church government. She hates male leaders who declare the word of God with authority, and who give clear direction to the church.

We are considering these things within the context of a spiritual (i.e. New Testament) church environment where husbands do hear from God through their wives, and where elders recognize and receive the prophetic words of the Lord through other members of the body of Christ.

There appears to be no evidence that lack of submission was an issue at Thyatira. Thus, a second vital step in defense is to be equipped by the Holy Spirit and the word of God so as to recognize what is false and opens the door to deception.

In essence, this requires gifts of the Holy Spirit (i.e. word of knowledge and discerning of spirits) plus clear knowledge from scriptures of how the spirit of Jezebel can initiate deception into the mind of even spiritual believers.

The following are some examples of what believers and leadership must guard against. These may come in the form of impressions, revelations, prophetic messages, words from other believers, dreams, etc. In all cases, they are to be rejected.

To believe or embrace them is to potentially become open to demonic influence of this spirit. This can lead to further deception, and to introducing that deception into the church.

----- Your husband doesn't understand spiritual things; you are the real spiritual leader of your family

-----  Your spouse doesn't understand you; that persons spouse does, therefore, confide in him (her)

-----  You have revelations; the elders and the rest of the church do not understand. Therefore, leave the church and go develop your ministry

-----  Sexual relations are carnal; therefore, leave your spouse and children to follow me

-----  Use sex to persuade your husband to allow you to assume the ministry and role of spiritual leadership in your family.

-----  Use your service (prayer, talents, giving, spiritual gift) to influence the elders to seek your input for their decisions. You should be recognized for your spirituality

-----  The elders are not spiritual and do not have the mind of God for the church. I have given you revelations and directions for the church to follow

The spirit of takeover, is the mist of the church (male or female)


[[[[[[  Your church is the most spiritual and the only right one; don't associate with leaders of other churches

[[[[[[  You do not have to be accountable to other men; you alone are leader of the church,that God has placed you over

[[[[[[  Lack of accountability is a major reason why many leaders fall into sin and their ministry is discredited. The spirit of Jezebel seeks to prevent the accountability of a Biblical leadership for local church government

[[[[[[  Unexpected and overwhelming spirits of fear or discouragement

[[[[[[   Desires for sexual fantasies

[[[[[[   The elders lack spiritual insight and wisdom; they are unable to give you counsel so just ignore their words

These illustrations do not address the obvious and more gross sins, but they do point out clearly the type of subtle overtures Satan uses to gain openings in spiritual believers so as to divide believer from believer, husband from wife, believers from the eldership, leader from leader and church from church.

All sin can follow once Gods authority is manipulated or destroyed in group relationships.

The spirit of Jezebel had the last word in her conflict with Elijah. It was when he was under the attack of the demons of fear and discouragement that the Lord directed him to go and anoint Elisha prophet in his place. The Elijah's of today are not to run in fear or be discouraged.

This is the day of victory!

Dr Michael J Thomas PhD
Sr Pastor IDMC



14  Theology / Bible Study / THE SPIRIT OF JEZEBEL IS ALIVE AND THRIVING - PART 1 OF 2 on: August 31, 2006, 07:36:45 PM

(Dead or Alive)

by Dr Michael J Thomas PhD


NOTE; The Jezebel spirit is atrributed to women, but can and does appear in men.

This has noting to do with women preaching in the church, we atribute this spirit to a women who by the same name caused  the fall of mighty men of God.


There is a divine strategy in place by which the Lord will restore and prepare His church, equip His army for a mighty final conflict of spiritual warfare, and bring into His house a great harvest of souls before He returns to judge the world.

Satan also has a counter strategy of deception centered in the New Age Movement by which he seeks to frustrate the purpose of God. Satan's ultimate goal is to be worshipped as God by the world (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 13:Cool. Therefore, while he seeks to capture every soul, he knows that this will not be achieved simply by promoting atheism and unbridled lawlessness alone. For this reason, his primary focus is religious deception.

Central in this strategy is the spirit of Jezebel.

Christians, not wholly committed to Christ or who are unaware of these two strategies, face two potential losses:

(1) Missing their opportunity to participate with the Lord in His great end-time work in and through the church.

(2) Being ineffective in spiritual warfare and open to possible deception.



The spirit of Elijah is vital to the Lord's strategy. Despite all truth that has been, and is being restored to the church since the time of Martin Luther, there exists one significant deficiency yet to be addressed. I do not say restored, for it was also missing in the early church.

There has never been a generation of spiritual fathers who brought forth a generation of sons (converts) that surpassed them in excellence of character and ministry. Historically, when some truth was restored through a great man of God, his followers built a denominational monument to that truth and resisted further light.

New truth would then arise through another man in later generations, but always with the same result. Thus, truth has been exploited by leaders to divide the body of Christ rather than bringing it into unity of the faith. A change is coming!

The church the Lord will return for will be united in Him, fully manifesting His character, power, authority and demonstrating the fulfillment of scriptures such as Ephesians 4:11-16; John 17:20-23; Acts 3:17-21 and Joel 2:23-25.

This great work in the church concerns the spirit of Elijah. His spirit, which rested upon John the Baptist, was an essential requirement for the Lords first advent. The spirit of Elijah is equally necessary to prepare the church for His second coming.

Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse. (Malachi 4:5-6)

And His disciples asked Him, saying, Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first,And He answered and said, Elijah is coming and will restore all things; but I say to you, that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished?. . . . (Matthew 17:10-12)

Just as the Lord has recently removed the leaders of many communist nations to open doors for the gospel, so also will He replace many leaders in Christendom with a new generation of bondservants to lead and prepare His church. They will be men like Elijah.

They will have hearts and a vision to raise up spiritual sons that excel them in ministry and (eventually) in stature. They will not seek to build a kingdom around their person and ministry, for they will have the spirit of Elijah resting upon them.

The greatest miracle ever accomplished by Elijah took place during the years when he imparted to Elisha what God had built into him. It created a godly desire in Elisha to receive the anointing that rested on Elijah, along with understanding on how to avoid the weaknesses of character Elijah displayed in his conflict with Jezebel (i.e. fear, discouragement, self pity). The fruit of this miracle was evident when Elisha performed similar miracles-but twice as many as Elijah without evidence of fear and discouragement.

The traditional mind-set of many ministers today is to pass on at death authority to someone on staff to carry on their ministry. This is unscriptural and contrary to developing spiritual excellence. One can pass nothing on at death; it must be imparted while we are alive!

The final victory over Jezebel did not occur in the days of Elijah. It took place during the life time of Elisha when Jehu was king over Israel. In the final spiritual conflict of this age, a vital part of the Lord?s army will be young warriors who have been trained by godly fathers with the spirit of Elijah (1 John. 2:13-14; Psalm 110:1-3).

This is a fundamental principle of excellence in the Lords end-time strategy for His church. This was a principle practiced and taught by Paul, but which appeared to cease with Timothy.



Satan has placed certain fallen angels as authorities of darkness over populated cities, regions and countries (Ephesians 6:12; Daniel 10:13). Operating through demons, these principalities exercise specific roles of wickedness in deception and warfare against mankind. The spirit of Jezebel, one of these spirit beings, is the most dominant authority of evil over our nation today!

The following are manifestations of this spirit which become apparent from observing the demonic behavior of Queen Jezebel whom it controlled. The wicked acts of the queen is why this being is called the spirit of Jezebel. Each characteristic represents a unique demonic influence which continues to mark this spirit today.

1  It is a spirit that seeks to control men and women, but primarily women, and to manipulate others through them, often through sexual means.

2  Jezebel fed four hundred prophets of the Asherah (a wooden symbol of a female deity) at her table. Her pagan religion included the practice of fertility rites. Besides having a devastating debasing effect on the practitioner, the acts of worship included male and female cultic prostitutes in hetero and homosexual liaisons. Such corrupt practices as child sacrifice and licentious worship also marked religious devotion to Baal who Jezebel served.

3  It is a controlling, rebellious spirit that resists all law and godly authority, especially male authority.

Although Ahab, her husband, was king over Israel, it was really Jezebel who ruled. She, not Ahab, defined and led the retaliation against Elijah     (1 Kings 19:2).

4  It is a lying accusing, manipulating spirit. Jezebel manipulated men of authority to have the man Naboth falsely accused and then stoned to death, in order to steal a vineyard he owned.

5  It is a spirit of devastating fear and discouragement. After Elijah slew the prophets of Baal, demons of fear and discouragement troubled him greatly, so much so that he wanted to die (1 Kings 19:3-4, 10-14).

6 It is a spirit of witchcraft and the occult.

7 Jezebel served Baal and supported four hundred and fifty demonic prophets of Baal, and was instrumental in leading the nation of Israel into idolatry.

8 It is a spirit of murder, and hatred for the word of God.

9  Jezebel destroyed the Lords prophets in Israel (1 Kings 18:4), and she tried to kill Elijah. She played the role of chief priestess to the Baal of that area (Melkarth), a god that required the burning of innocent children as oblations on his altar.



This spirit has been in the world for centuries, but in the strategy of Satan, has been placed over this nation in recent years to bring about the same breakdown in morals that it accomplished over Israel in the days of Ahab and Jezebel.

A primary focus of Satan has been to destroy the family.

The controlling, dominating spirit of Jezebel is the very antithesis of meekness and submission which are the qualities of godly women. This spirit seeks to emasculate the headship of man which God has ordained for the family and for leadership in the church.

15  Theology / Bible Study / Re: Topical Bible Studies - Part 5 on: August 29, 2006, 11:33:21 AM
Study the Bible as the Word of God.

The Bible is the Word of God, and we get the most good out of any book by studying it as what it really is.

It is often said that we should study the Bible just as we study any other book. That principle contains a truth, but it also contains a great error.

The Bible, it is true, is a book as other books are books, the same laws of grammatical and literary construction and interpretation hold here as hold in other books. But the Bible is an entirely unique book.

It is what no other book is--The Word of God.

This can be easily proven to any candid man. The Bible ought then to be studied as no other book is. It should be studied as the Word of God.
(1 Thessalonians 2:13).

This involves five things.


A greater eagerness and more careful and candid study to find out just what it teaches than is bestowed upon any other book or upon all other books. We must know the mind of God; here it is revealed.


A prompt and unquestioning acceptance of and submission to its teachings when definitely ascertained, even when these teachings appear to us unreasonable or impossible.

If this book is the Word of God how foolish to submit its teachings to the criticism of our finite reason.

The little boy who discredits his wise father's statements because to his infant mind they appear unreasonable, is not a philosopher but a fool. When we are once satisfied that the Bible is the Word of God, its clear teachings must be the end of all controversy and discussion.


Absolute reliance upon all its promises in all their length and breadth and depth and height. The one who studies the Bible as the Word of God will say of every promise no matter how vast and beyond belief it appears, "God who cannot lie has promised this, so I claim it for myself."

Mark the promises you thus claim. Look each day for some new promise from your infinite Father. He has put "His riches in glory" at your disposal. (Philippians 4:19).


Obedience--prompt, exact, unquestioning, joyous obedience--to every command that is evident from the context applies to you. Be on the lookout for new orders from the King.

Blessing lies in the direction of obedience to them. God's commands are but signboards that mark the road to present success and blessedness and to eternal glory.


Studying the Bible as the Word of God, involves studying it as His own voice speaking directly to you.

When you open the Bible to study it realize that you have come into the very presence of God and that now He is going to speak to you.

Every hour thus spent in Bible study will be an hour's walk and talk with God.


Study the Bible prayerfully.

The author of the book is willing to act as interpreter of it.

He does so when we ask Him to.

The one who prays with earnestness and faith, the Psalmist's prayer, "Open Thou mine eyes that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law," will get his eyes opened to see beauties and wonders in the Word that he never dreamed of before.

Be very definite about this. Each time you open the Bible to study it for a few minutes or many, ask God to give you the open and discerning eye, and expect Him to do it.

Every time you come to a difficulty lay it before God and ask an explanation and expect it. How often we think as we puzzle over hard passages, "Oh if I only had so and so here to explain this." God is always present. Take it to Him.


Look for "the things concerning Christ" "in all the Scriptures." Christ is everywhere in the Bible (Luke 24:27). Be on the lookout for Him and mark His presence when you find it.


Improve spare moments in Bible study. In almost every man's life many minutes each day are lost; while waiting for meals or trains, while riding in the car, etc. Carry a pocket Bible or Testament with you and save these golden minutes by putting them to the very best use listening to the voice of God.

The Textbook can easily be carried in the pocket as a help in your work.


Store away the Scripture in your mind and heart.

It will keep you from sin (Psalm 119:11 RSV), from false doctrine (Acts 20:29,30,32; 2 Timothy 3:13-15), it will fill you heart with joy (Jeremiah 15:16), and peace (Psalm 85:Cool, it will give you the victory over the Evil One (1 John 2:14), it will give you power in prayer (John 15:7), it will make you wiser than the aged and your enemies (Psalm 119:100,98,130) it will make you "complete, furnished completely unto every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16,17 RSV).

Try it. Do not memorize at random but memorize Scripture in a CONNECTED way. Memorize texts bearing on various subjects in proper order.

Memorize by chapter and verse that you may know where to put your finger upon the text if anyone disputes it.

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