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1  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 09, 2005, 09:42:18 PM
Thank you.

Well, at this point I can no longer follow what exactly it is you're trying to say so you're welcome Grin.
2  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 07, 2005, 05:34:08 PM
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Last Daze:
I think we can agree that these verses are talking about nations that will rise.

In your own words...

Yes and once again you take my words out of context.  Yet this is exactly how many people choose to read the Bible.

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Mind explaining the verses?  There are different views on the proper translation as well as interpretation of these verses.  I will start with the fact that it states “And there are seven kings” which in the KJV seem to indicate that in addition to the seven heads there are also seven kings.  Just a thought but perhaps this is why John began these verses with “And here is the mind which hath wisdom”.

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Last Daze:
Now just in case anyone thought that thrones was a misprint then please explain what other beasts are being spoken about here?

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Once again a little explanation please.  You have taken my quote which is referring to Daniel and jumped to Revelation to give an answer.  The problem is they are not referring to the same things.  It’s like using an English novel to solve problems in a Chemistry class.  What are the thrones spoken of in Daniel Chapter 7 referring to?  More so what beasts is Daniel referring to when he speaks of the “rest of the beasts” having their dominion taken from them?  These 10 horns which you have referenced are only part of one beast, the fourth beast of Daniel.  They are not in and of themselves beasts.
3  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 06, 2005, 02:40:39 AM
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Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Here John describes his seven headed beast which sounds like a freak mutant.  However he describes it as a conglomeration of all 4 beasts of Daniel.  Each beast of Daniel is represented in this one beast of Revelation.  This is at the rise of the little horn and the time of the end.

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Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is that same time described in Daniel 7:9-11.  These kings of the earth follow the beast into battle.  This is the time when these kingdoms that dominate the earth shall lose their power.  The beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire and the rest of the survivors, those from the rest of the beasts, enter into a different time.  This is the dawn of the Day of The Lord.  This is the dawn of the millennium.  After this Daniel 7:13-14 go on to describe the establishment of The Messiah’s kingdom on earth.  This is the same time that Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream.

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Dan 2:34  Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35  Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.




(jumping ahead)
Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:[/u] and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Dan 2:45  Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The stone that was cut out without hands is representative of The God of heaven.  The stone smashing the feet represents both the event and the timing of the event.  This is the symbolism describing The Messiah’s return and the stripping of these worldly kingdoms of their dominion and He does it at the time of the end, the time of the feet and toes.  This is what Daniel makes clear when he interprets this image for Nebuchadnezzar.  He interprets the different parts of the statue as representing different kingdoms and empires that will rise and fall over time beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon (Dan 2:36-40).  Then Daniel gets to the part of the interpretation explaining the feet and toes.  He speaks of a kingdom (the conglomerated beast kingdom John saw in Revelation) that is both strong and broken.  They try to mix but it does not stand.  The people never truly unite.  Then Daniel says this:

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Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

In the days of what kings?  In the days of the kings who exist at the time of the end, the kingdoms which make up the feet and toes, the kingdoms which will try to merge into John’s seven headed beast of Revelation.  Remember he is speaking about the feet and toes as he leads into this verse.  Again when read in context we see that he is clearly speaking about the time of the feet and toes, the time of the end.  And in the days that these kings stand will The Ancient of Days return to set up His kingdom.  This is how we get a frame of reference for Daniel Chapter 7 and how it fits perfectly in with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.


How much of the book of Revelation is quoted word for word from other books of the Bible? I believe I used the analogy of BOTH Daniel chapter 2 and 7 as the same! Do ten toes and ten horns mean or represent the same thing?

As long as the context is the same, and it is in both Daniel and Revelation, then yes they do mean the same thing.  I will stop here for now.
4  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 06, 2005, 02:39:55 AM
A twist of words!

In what way?  This is a common tactic to avoid discussing the real issue being presented.  Focusing on your misinterpretation of what I said does not make your argument nor does it break mine.  Personally I do not wish to simply let this degenerate into a game of nitpicking.  What I said and what you thought I said has no relevance to the actual point I made in the first place so there is no point in discussing this play on words any further.  The real issue is the fact that I do not agree with your interpretation of Chapter 7 of Daniel.  I presented my reasons why.  If you want to argue (and I do not mean fight) then please focus on that point as that was the point of my post.  Let us remember that we can discuss differing views and even disagree with brotherly love.  If anything I said was taken to be hostile then I apologize as that was not my intent.

Pulling out one verse to meet your wants wouldn't answer anything nor does it point anything out. So lets start at the beginning of Daniel chapter 7 and you can explain your reasoning. I used reference points for Daniel chapter 2, but the analogy doesn't seem to be the same from what your saying.

I certainly did not pull only one verse.  However I have no problem starting at the beginning of Chapter 7 and explaining my reasoning.  I think the first 2 verses are self explanatory so let’s start at verse 3.

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Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 7:4  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5  And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:8  I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

I think we can agree that these verses are talking about nations that will rise.  He describes each beast.  I think we can agree that the fourth beast he describes is the beast kingdom from which the little horn (or Anti-Christ as most call him) comes (verse 8 ).  I presume that none of this is in dispute so I will not go into any more detail about any of this at this point.  Now it lists each beast that rises and the indication is that this fourth beast is the final kingdom to rise.  Just a note, but it never says the others fell at any time.  Now the entire focus of this Chapter of Daniel is on these 4 beast kingdoms and probably most of it is on this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn which comes from it.  The next verse is key.

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Dan 7:9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Now again I will take it that we agree this verse is talking about the return of The Messiah.  This is the same battle that John describes in Rev 19:19-21.  This verse starts out by telling us that the thrones were cast down.  This plural use of the word indicates that this is not speaking about just one governmental power or entity.  Since the context of this Chapter as established in its beginning leads us to understand it is talking about these 4 major beast kingdoms, then we can conclude logically that the thrones of which he is speaking are the thrones of these 4 beast kingdoms.  Let us continue on.

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Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

These verses are again describing the end of the little horn and his fate.  I do not think there is any disagreement here.  However the next verse is once again important.

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Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Now just in case anyone thought that thrones was a misprint then please explain what other beasts are being spoken about here?  Again this is plural and if we read it in context of the Chapter as a whole it can only be speaking about the other beast kingdoms.  Now the time and manner of their casting down is clearly explained in verses 9-11.  They are cast down when the Ancient of Days appears on the scene, the same time that the little horn meets his fate.  This precludes any possibility that they were conquered or otherwise obliterated prior to the return of The Messiah.  For them to have their dominion stripped at His return they must have it when He returns.  Thus it is logical to conclude that this is not speaking about ancient kingdoms lost to antiquity.  This is why John’s Revelation fits so well.  Daniel sees them rising as separate nations while John sees them as they attempt to merge into one system.
5  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 04, 2005, 08:47:41 PM

Honestly, both Babylon, Medes-Persians were conquered and the Greeks melted into the Roman Empire, bereft of their former power. Daniel 2:32 [...], his belly and his thighs of brass, 2:33 His legs of iron, [...]. The legs of Iron is after the split. Daniel 7:12 is refering to Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

While this may be true it does not answer the question of how these kingdoms could be the ones spoken of when the ones spoken of will be in power when The Messiah returns.  Being conquered, scattered or annihilated by another worldly power doesn’t quite fit the description given by Daniel of these beasts nor of the fact that their power is stripped by The Ancient of Days at His return not by Rome or another conquering power.


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Last Daze:
Rome and its split are seen in the legs of iron. Then Daniel goes on while interpreting the dream to speak of the time of the toes which are the kingdoms which shall arise after the fall of the Roman Empire.


Not so, Rome started in the brass until its split between east and west. Although there was a split in the political and another in religion, Daniel is speaking of the political until the feet, which continues until the Lord's return. My belief is religion(clay) and political(iron).

The point I was making here was that the legs of Iron show the split of the Roman Empire.  I was not implying that Rome is singularly represented by the legs of iron.  Even so this doesn’t address the actual point of my post.


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Daniel 2:42-43.
Last Daze:
Here we see the picture of the emerging world scene after the fall of Rome. Some nations would rise to be strong and others would be weak. Many would mingle with one another but they would not cleave together even as iron and clay do not mix. We definitely see this with all the racism and elitism that goes on in the world and has been for some time. Nations make and break treaties as they see it benefiting them. The key here is the next verse.

In the Old Testament clay is used for the people also, Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Do you think the symbol of the eagle or eagle’s wings are meant to be interpreted the same everywhere the symbol is used?  Is Rev 12:14 to be interpreted the same as Jer 49:22?  Does context ever enter into proper interpretation?
6  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 03, 2005, 08:29:24 PM
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Dan 7:3  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Now sea, or water, is often used as a symbol for people.  Daniel is describing the rising of nations among different peoples.  These four nations, or kingdoms, rise up and are different from one another.

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Dan 7:4  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5  And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Now these are four primary kingdoms that exercise major global influence and play a key role in the end times and will exist at the return of The Messiah.  Let us reference John’s Revelation.

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Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,[/u] and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Now John is describing “a beast” which rises out of the sea, or rises among the people.  This beast is a conglomeration of all four beasts of Daniel.  It has the 10 horns from the fourth beast of Daniel, it has the mouth of a Lion from the first, the feet of a bear from the second and the beast was like unto a leopard, the third beast kingdom of Daniel.  This beast has seven heads.  It we look at Daniel we see the head of the Lion, the head of the bear, the 4 heads of the leopard and the head of the fourth beast which is not likened to any beast in nature.  There are your seven heads.  John’s beast is tied to what is called “The Great Tribulation” period.  This means that this beast exists as a whole at the time of the end.  Daniel's beasts also exist because he goes on to tell us in Dan 7:9-12 what happens at the return of The Ancient of Days.

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Dan 7:9  I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Dan 7:10  A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11  I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.   (Also see Rev 19:19-21)

Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Again Daniel testifies that these beasts are in power at the Return of The Ancient of Days.  Their thrones are cast down at His return, not before.  In other words their power is stripped from them but he goes on to say that these other beasts will have their lives prolonged for a season.  This is not describing kingdoms that rose and fell before the return of The Messiah as their power is taken from them at His return.  They do not fall as a result of moral decay and wars with barbarians.  They do not simply erode over time or fade out of existence.  Daniel 7:9 is describing the last part of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.

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Dan 2:34  Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35  Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The “stone” that “was cut out without hands” is a symbol for the God of heaven as He has no creator, no beginning nor ending of days.  He smites the “feet” of the image and becomes a "great mountain".  When Daniel provides the interpretation he explains what this is symbolizing.  In verses 42 – 44 Daniel explains that it is during the time of the feet and toes, the time of the many kingdoms, that the God of heaven will set up His kingdom (mountain).  This is why the “stone” is shown striking the “feet”.  Since Daniel chapter 7 describes these beasts as having their power taken from them at the return of The Ancient of Days then we know he is speaking about the time and kingdoms of the feet and toes from Nebuchadnezzar’s dream because the other empires in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream all fall before the return of The Messiah.
7  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:USA in prophecy? on: April 03, 2005, 08:28:37 PM
The "Great Image" of Nebuchadnezzar.

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Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Daniel 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

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Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Babylon{Lion Daniel 7:4} - [Head of Gold] Jeremiah 49:19-22 used both the lion and the eagle as pictures of Nebuchadnezzar.

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Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Medes-Persians Daniel 5:28 {Bear - 3 ribs - Babylon, Egypt and Lydia. Daniel 7:5} - [Chest of Silver]

Greek{Leopard - Daniel 7:6} - [Belly of Brass],

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Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Rome{Dreadful and Terrible - Daniel 7:7}

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Daniel 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

[Legs of Iron(Western and Eastern)]
The Romans forced the Jews to leave the region of Palestine in 132-135 AD. Rome was divided into eastern and western legs portions in 395 AD.

~WESTERN LEG~
Western Roman Empire falls in 476 AD.

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Daniel 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

~EASTERN LEG~
Constantine builds Constantinople on the site of the Greek city Byzantium in 330 AD. Constantinople becomes the new capital of the Roman empire in 359 AD. Byzantium enforces anti-Jewish laws and the Jews all but disappear from the eastern Roman Empire in 527 AD. The Ottoman Turks capture Constantinople in 1453 AD., Constantinople was renamed Istanbul, Turkey in 1930 AD.

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Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

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Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
13:2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority.

Leopard(Greek), Bear's(Medes-Persians) and Lion's mouth(Babylonia Daniel 4:30-31).

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Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

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Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

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Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

According to the angel, then, Rev. 17:9 "seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." In the next verse of Rev. 17:10 And there are seven kings: That is in keeping with the facts that in many places in prophecy mountains symbolize governments. For instance, Jeremiah 51:25 likens the fallen Babylonian kingdom to a "ruinous mountain" and a "burnt mountain." Of course, Babylon itself was situated on a river plain and was made a mountain city. Elsewhere in scripture, God's own royal kingdom is called Mount Zion. The five fallen kings that were dominated by the harlot existed before Christ, and long before the US ever came on the scene. The Dreadful and Terrible covers two legs of Iron(Western and Eastern) and 10 toes(Iron and Clay).

And there are seven kings; "five have fallen" Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greek, "one is" Rome.

Very interesting but there are a few things I wanted to point out.  It is common for people to say that Daniel chapter 7 is speaking about 4 different kingdoms that exist each in succession to one another.  One falls and another rises.  However if you read a key verse in this chapter you can see that these kingdoms all exist and are in power at the return of The Ancient of Days.

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Dan 7:12  As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Here we see that these other beasts have their power taken from them at the return of the Son of Man.  Preceding this verse we see the destruction of this fourth great and terrible beast and the little horn’s deliverance to the burning flame.  This coincides with the events spoken of by John in Revelation.  Moreover we see these same four beasts together as one in Revelation which is the symbol of their attempt at unity.  Let’s take a closer look.

You speak of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream.  In his dream he is seeing the existence of all the major kingdoms that must exist up to the return of The Messiah.  This is where your historical kingdoms come from starting with Babylon.  Rome and its split are seen in the legs of iron.  Then Daniel goes on while interpreting the dream to speak of the time of the toes which are the kingdoms which shall arise after the fall of the Roman Empire.

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Dan 2:40  And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.  (Rome and its fall)

Dan 2:41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

The kingdom that is divided is Rome.  After its fall the world falls into chaos and from these ashes rise the many kingdoms which are the feet and toes, some weak and some strong.

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Dan 2:42  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Dan 2:43  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Here we see the picture of the emerging world scene after the fall of Rome.  Some nations would rise to be strong and others would be weak.  Many would mingle with one another but they would not cleave together even as iron and clay do not mix.  We definitely see this with all the racism and elitism that goes on in the world and has been for some time.  Nations make and break treaties as they see it benefiting them.  The key here is the next verse.

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Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

In the days of the many kingdoms the God of heaven will set up His permanent kingdom and He shall consume these kingdoms.  Not all the kingdoms will be destroyed.  This is the time of the feet and toes, the time of the many kingdoms that arose from the ashes of a fallen Roman Empire.  It is this time period which Daniel is speaking about in Chapter 7.  These beasts or kingdoms arise in the earth among the people during the time of the feet and toes, or the time of the many kingdoms.  These four great beasts exist at the time of the return of The Ancient of Days.  Let’s look at these more closely.
8  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / USA in prophecy? on: December 03, 2004, 06:57:07 PM
I just thought I would put this out there for discussion.  Is the US in prophecy?  Is it possible that what may be the greatest and most influencial nation on earth at the time of the end would have been overlooked in prophecy?  If you feel the US is in prophecy where do you see it and what role do you see it playing?
9  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Revelations on: November 09, 2004, 08:01:11 PM

The natural tendency of people who read this book is to assume that its providing an account of what is still to transpire in our own future.  And so its been understood, down through the ages.  The only problem though is that every generation has assumed that the book is referring to what will happen in its own time.  And so far, of course, every generation has been wrong.  Even though each generation thinks that surely it will be the one.

......

Who was the first emperor of Rome to persecute Christians?  It was the emperor Nero.
When you spell the name Caesar Nero in Hebrew letters and add up the letters it adds up to 666.  According to texts from the 1st and 2nd centuries he was believes, in some Jewish circles, to be about to come back from the dead to again rule Rome and persecute the people of god.

......

But!!  If we are interested in known what the author of Revelations himself meant, it makes sense to think that he is talking about something going on in his own world and time.

What do you think of this?

My biggest problem Coptic with your interpretation is that it does not account for what we read at the end of Revelation or the last Chapter of Daniel (in the KJV anyway).  It is the time of the resurrection, the great calling out of the saints (those that live and those that sleep), and ultimately the visible return of The Messiah at the battle of Armageddon.  Daniel specifically states that certain visions were for the time of the end, meaning the time of the return of The Ancient of Days in glory and the end of this world system.  Many of his visions were of the state of the world at that time and some of the things that would be happening leading up to that time.  Revelation in many ways is almost a restatement of some of Daniel’s visions and even elaborates on certain events in a little more detail.  So if Daniel’s visions were for the time of the end then Revelation would also be for the time of the end since it testifies of the same events which will transpire at that time.  The culmination of both Daniel’s and John’s visions is the return of The Messiah and the putting down of the one who will oppose Him at His return.  So unless you think this happened in the first century AD then how can you dismiss these prophecies as fulfilled?  If you do think it happened then you must show the historical record that proves that this event transpired already.
10  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Revelations on: November 09, 2004, 04:25:40 AM

The ten horns represent "the beast", the ones whom are "worshipped"  in Rev.13.

"Babylon", the "woman", and the "harlot", are one and the same intinty.


Who or “what” Babylon is, is not the question.  The point I was trying to make is that Babylon is destroyed by the very beast she is “riding” (the 10 horns on the beast to be exact.)  It then does not make sense that she is this beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns and yet is destroyed by the 10 horns of the 7 headed beast.  Now, the language is, of course, symbolic.  However the ‘woman’ is added to the picture later on in Chap 17.  She was not there to begin with.  She is that ‘great city’ which reigns over the kings (kingdoms) of the earth.  In other words she is a, if not the, dominant global superpower of her time.  She is shown riding the beast which symbolizes her dominion over the beast kingdoms until her destruction.  Her affluence is shown in Chapter 18 and we see that she is the dominant economic superpower of the time.  She is not the same as the beast which destroys her.  The beast symbol in Revelation is layered as it represents the merger of the beast kingdoms of Daniel, which is where the seven heads come from.  They are the seven heads of the four separate beasts of Daniel.  These beasts of Daniel also represent kingdoms or empires or great nations.  The beast from which the little horn (or Anti-Christ) comes from is the fourth and terrible beast of Daniel which has the 10 horns (the same 10 horns in Revelation).  These four beasts are merged in Revelation into one 7 headed beast which represents an attempt at global unity.  Also, the beast represents an entity or demonic power which can be tied back to Revelation Chap 9 where we are told who the beast that was, is not, yet is and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit is.  He is the destroying angel   or the angel of perdition. He is the king of the pit.  Finally we can see the beast man, or the one who will claim dominion over the beast kingdom and will speak great things against The Almighty and the hosts of heaven.  He will exercise the power of the beast and of Satan and shall work miracles through the powers of devils and deceive many.  He is aptly named the son of perdition.  Now there is a lot more to this but I just wanted to show that the idea that the beast is the woman of Chapter 17 does not line up.  She is a separate entity.






















































 


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11  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Revelations on: October 26, 2004, 12:59:51 AM
Hi there I’m new here.   Smiley  I’ve been looking through this thread and wanted to point a few things out if I may.

FayeC, I wanted to ask how you reconcile Revelation Chapters 17 and 18 with your view that the 7 headed beast of Revelation is “Babylon”.  Consider that it is revealed in Chapter 17 that the 10 horns of the beast destroy “Mystery Babylon”.  Does this mean that she, in effect, destroys herself?

That is "Babylon" which John sees coming out of the sea in verse one of Rev.13.  And it consists of multitudes, nations, and peoples.  Thus the seven heads are seven continents/races of man within Babylon.

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Rev 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Mystery Babylon is destroyed before Christ returns and she is destroyed by the 10 horns on the seven headed beast.  They are the harbingers of God’s judgment upon her.  So how does it logically follow that the seven headed beast equals the Babylon it destroys?  Just a note but remember that the armies of the beast are still around at Armageddon as they follow the beast into the battle at Armageddon.  Yet Babylon is already destroyed by the time Armageddon takes place.  So how are they the same?
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