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1  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: June 02, 2003, 07:30:24 AM
Part of Chapter 1

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

This is perhaps the most important chapter. Without understanding on how to properly interpret the Bible, there is no chance of understanding scripture, especially prophecy! There are certain keys the Bible gives us for properly dividing the Word on any given subject. By following these principles, we receive light and understanding and utilize the “key of knowledge” as Jesus mentioned in Luke 11:52.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

“Rightly dividing the Word of Truth!” When we look at the Rapture of the Church and discuss the issue of timing, it’s very critical we don’t just look at one or two verses here and there, and base a conclusion. We must take all of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, as many as there may be, and place them all together, before we are to conclude anything. This is the “key” along with both the Old and New Testaments alike.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

Our foundation of beliefs and doctrine rests upon the words of the New Testament Apostles, the Old Testament Prophets, and the words of Jesus Christ! We must discern the WHOLE Bible in order to clearly see. Let’s look at this key and clarify!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…

Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word? Then precept “MUST BE” upon precept, meaning scripture must be applied to other scriptures, line upon line, here a little and there a little. Many of us see a certain verse, and believe we know exactly what it means, and in many cases this is true. However, many times also, especially in prophecy, other verses must coincide to get the full picture on the subject. In prophecy every verse in the Bible must be used to get the proper understanding. One of the reasons prophecy is so confusing and you hear so many different views is the “key of knowledge” is not used. This is the very first principle, and without this key, we can never hope to understand any doctrine in God’s Word.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you’re tired of milk, and want to grow as a Christian, then pursue the meat of God’s Word, and use this key of knowledge to rightly divide the Word of truth! This, ladies and gentlemen is the “first principle,” the “key of knowledge” to full discovery of God’s wonderful Word! Notice the scriptures, saying “hey, first things first!”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Knowing this first! No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation! This not only tells us that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, but in many cases, we cannot give our own interpretation, without other scripture to interpret first. Do we conclude this by one verse alone? No, we conclude this by attaching the revelation of this verse with the previous seven or eight verses we just quoted. We are also aware there are many verses that are a declaration unto themselves and this key is not always used. But when it comes to prophecy, PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, SCRIPTURE UPON SCRIPTURE, HERE A VERSE, AND THERE A VERSE!  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice the Spirit of Truth, will guide us “into all truth!” Not parts of it, but rather all of it. Especially when He will “shew” us things to come.  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us, comparing scripture with scripture, verse upon verse, and line upon line.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, verse with verse, and line upon line. The key revealed! We are going to take this key and open up the mystery of the Rapture of the Church! It’s very important when we expound the Word of God that we use all the scriptures in the Bible to clarify a doctrine, and hold nothing back.

2  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: June 02, 2003, 07:29:53 AM
Part of Chapter 1

RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH

This is perhaps the most important chapter. Without understanding on how to properly interpret the Bible, there is no chance of understanding scripture, especially prophecy! There are certain keys the Bible gives us for properly dividing the Word on any given subject. By following these principles, we receive light and understanding and utilize the “key of knowledge” as Jesus mentioned in Luke 11:52.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

“Rightly dividing the Word of Truth!” When we look at the Rapture of the Church and discuss the issue of timing, it’s very critical we don’t just look at one or two verses here and there, and base a conclusion. We must take all of the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, as many as there may be, and place them all together, before we are to conclude anything. This is the “key” along with both the Old and New Testaments alike.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

Our foundation of beliefs and doctrine rests upon the words of the New Testament Apostles, the Old Testament Prophets, and the words of Jesus Christ! We must discern the WHOLE Bible in order to clearly see. Let’s look at this key and clarify!

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little…

Hungry for knowledge and want to understand doctrine? Want to feed on some meat, and get away from just the milk of God’s Word? Then precept “MUST BE” upon precept, meaning scripture must be applied to other scriptures, line upon line, here a little and there a little. Many of us see a certain verse, and believe we know exactly what it means, and in many cases this is true. However, many times also, especially in prophecy, other verses must coincide to get the full picture on the subject. In prophecy every verse in the Bible must be used to get the proper understanding. One of the reasons prophecy is so confusing and you hear so many different views is the “key of knowledge” is not used. This is the very first principle, and without this key, we can never hope to understand any doctrine in God’s Word.

Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

If you’re tired of milk, and want to grow as a Christian, then pursue the meat of God’s Word, and use this key of knowledge to rightly divide the Word of truth! This, ladies and gentlemen is the “first principle,” the “key of knowledge” to full discovery of God’s wonderful Word! Notice the scriptures, saying “hey, first things first!”

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Knowing this first! No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation! This not only tells us that the scripture is inspired by the Holy Ghost, but in many cases, we cannot give our own interpretation, without other scripture to interpret first. Do we conclude this by one verse alone? No, we conclude this by attaching the revelation of this verse with the previous seven or eight verses we just quoted. We are also aware there are many verses that are a declaration unto themselves and this key is not always used. But when it comes to prophecy, PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, SCRIPTURE UPON SCRIPTURE, HERE A VERSE, AND THERE A VERSE!  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us!

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Notice the Spirit of Truth, will guide us “into all truth!” Not parts of it, but rather all of it. Especially when He will “shew” us things to come.  This is the way the Holy Ghost teaches us, comparing scripture with scripture, verse upon verse, and line upon line.

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Comparing spiritual things with spiritual, scripture with scripture, verse with verse, and line upon line. The key revealed! We are going to take this key and open up the mystery of the Rapture of the Church! It’s very important when we expound the Word of God that we use all the scriptures in the Bible to clarify a doctrine, and hold nothing back.

3  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 29, 2003, 10:20:30 PM
Preface to my new book, ad new Publishing company to come.

We plan on publishing discount Bibles (KJV) and publishing goo Christian essays.

PREFACE

My fellow servants in Christ, the timing and sequence as to the Rapture of the Church is clearly revealed by Scripture and the Apostle Paul! That’s right! This essay of truth and Scripture will clearly be the defining moment that will show us an understanding we may not have seen afore time. It’s the author’s intent not merely to publish a book, but to bring light and understanding to a terrific Biblical doctrine by which we may “comfort one another with these words.”

Christian Churches in America have frequently been divided over the issue of the Rapture. It is our hope that this essay will promote a unity of the faith, and bring a better understanding of this great subject. It’s not our intent to attempt to persuade one way or another, just to lay the foundation of scripture and leave the reader to decide on their own. With all fairness and gravity, we will show the viewpoints of both sides and present what we believe to be the scriptural answer. We hold to, believe, and acknowledge the Holy Scriptures, as our final authority, rather than traditional beliefs.

We guarantee this expose will be the most revealing and eye-opening experience as to this subject. Does the author have all the credentials of famous Christian writers and authors, whose writings are published before written? No, this author does not. However after over 20 years of research, study, and Biblical evidence, this essay will present a dramatic case as to the timing of the Rapture. We ask the reader to look at the scriptures and be like the Berians, who searched the scriptures themselves, to see whether these things were so.

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

Regardless of which position you may hold, the most important matter is a relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. You may have heard the saying, “it will all pan out,” and this is true. Whether your pre, mid, or post-tribulation is irrelevant in comparison to a saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, with that said, the Rapture is a doctrine contained in scripture, and thus of importance to us. I’ve heard some say that it’s not a good idea for young Christians to get hung up on the details of prophecy, or that it can be too confusing or divisive. This may be partially true, however, over one-third of your Holy Bible relates to prophecy, and it is the Word of God, and must be taught and preached also. That’s why God raises up ministers, so that these things can be taught and proclaimed, just as the Apostle Paul did. When the Apostle Paul wrote the Thessalonians, and declared things about the coming of Christ, he did not apologize for it, or seem concerned about it’s effects. Jesus Himself talked about things to come, along with all the prophets and teachers throughout Bible history. Their focus was not to divide, confuse, or argue a point, but rather to comfort, exhort, and clarify things that are yet to come. We take the same position with this volume. The authors’ intent is not to attempt to argue a point, cause any division, in a Church that’s already divided, but rather to bring a focus on the prophetic scriptures, and how they relate to us in this current age. It’s our prayer that this volume will only “challenge” you to raise an eyebrow, and with an honest heart, study the scriptures for yourself, and verify the facts presented in this volume. Without an honest heart, regardless of facts or scriptural evidence, a pre-determined, pre-supposition will be hard to let go. This author does confess, that during my years in an Assembly of God Bible College, I held a determined pre-tribulation view, and I had my scriptures to back it up. During a conversation with a local, elderly, AG minister from Pennsylvania, we were discussing the timing of the Rapture, and I expressed my pre-tribulation view, and quoted I Thessalonians 5:2 to him saying “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” He looked back at me with a smile, placed his hand on my shoulder, and told me to read verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” I asked him if he believed the Church would be raptured before any of the seven-year tribulation period, and his response provoked me to further study. He told me with that gray-headed smile to “search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Spirit shows you.” Of coarse his answer was dissatisfactory to me at that time, and I went away thinking how wrong he was indeed. Having never again after that day seeing that minister, due to the fact that during Bible College we would frequent many different Churches, that smile always stuck with me. Now that I look back after many years, I now see that elderly smile with respect, for he could not have given me a better answer. About a year later, the Holy Spirit did indeed speak to me, directly from I Corinthians 15:52, and provoked me to even further study on this great topic, (among other things). Our prayer is to provoke you to love and good works, and to search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Ghost says.

May the Lord bless your reading of this book. This study tool will help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come. You will notice a lot of scriptures are quoted in this volume, and the reason for this is explained in chapter one. Holy Scripture rests as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy.
4  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 27, 2003, 07:11:44 PM
Bronze,

No man knows the day or hour, but we do know the promixity.

Paul and Peter did not expect an imminent return, they had the Lord's word they had to do stuff first.

Jesus would not lie would he?

Michael
5  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 27, 2003, 08:28:14 AM
Dear Friends,

It’s all too clear that certain things must first happen before Jesus will, or even can come again. In John 21:18-19, Jesus told Peter, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.” Jesus Himself told Peter that he was going to grow old and die for Him by crucifixion (A.D. 67). This did away with an any-moment Rapture, and certainly Peter believed the Lord, and was not expecting an imminent return of Christ. In Acts 23:11, Jesus told the Apostle Paul, “Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.” This prediction the Lord gave Paul, left no doubt that there could not be an any-moment Rapture, for he must still testify in Rome. Just as the Lord gave these predictions, there are many predictions for us in this end-time, which clearly makes void, and null an any-moment Rapture. Jesus said “Elijah must first come,” and certain things must first transpire BEFORE His coming for His saints. So expect the Spirit of Elijah to be poured out upon God’s two prophets of Revelation 11:3-13, and other ministers in this end-time, because an imminent return of Christ cannot take place until these things occur.

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

That Spirit has a tendency to do things for 3½ years, does it not? Now that’s a close!

Michael

6  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 23, 2003, 08:48:06 AM
Friends,

Rev 4:1 has nothing to do with the Rapture. That's one of the most extreme strectches I've ever heard yet, along with the weeding feast at Cana. That just goes to prove, that many are so desperate in attempting a prove a pre-trib threory, that any scriptures totally irrevelant to the second coming are applied. I'm sorry, but that's a very weal eschatological argument. Revelation chapter 4 is simply a revelation to John and for us, and has not a singe verse of implication or clarity regardig the catching away of the Bride.

However, the last trumpet of the seven trumpets in Rev 10:7 and Rev 11:15, has everything to do with the Rapture, along with Rev chap 12, and the two prophets being "caught up" in chapter 11. There can be no doubt from scripture that the Rapture is in Chap 11, and also from II Thess 2, that the revealng of the Antichrist must first come.

Eschatology rests upon properly dividing the word of truth and using all scripture from Gen to Rev.

Seems most have avoided II Thess 2:1-4 about the Antichrist has to be revealed FIRST, before the day of Christ and "our gathering together unto Him." I'd love to hear tat one explained away.

Yours,

Michael
7  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 20, 2003, 05:28:09 PM
Bronze,

Where did you say the last trumpet is specifically?

Would you like to have an open debate sometime? Me an an associate, will debate yourself and one other associate on video, with moderator, timed responses, and good honest Christian debate. It will last two hours, with one hour each for responses. I should enjoy such an event, seeing anyone try to prove from scripture a pre-tribulation theory, especially knowing context, proper interpratation, and historical evidence.

Did you even request my book? Perhaps you might learn something, I'm sure your not beyond the level of learning anything are you?

Anyhow, enough said, and yes I'm scorekeeping, because the Word of God wins over fabels. The score is not for me, but for the truth. Presumption, pre-suppositions, and pre-determonined positions are not good, if scripture does not back them. And scripture twisting, stretching a verse or two has to be done to justify fables and theories.

Example----The crowns the Lord gives the elders, has absoulety nothing to do with the Rapture of the Church. It's such a silly reference, I just may add it to my book.

Anyhow, it seems nothing in scripture will persuade you, but one thing will. And that's the day you realize we ain't flying away
8  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 20, 2003, 12:20:23 PM
Bronzesnake,

Your not listening very well. I never said Rev 4 is after he tribulation, your mid-quoting me. In an open debate you would lose many points for not being accurate about what I said.

Also I quoted sources, writings, pages, names, volumes, of over 30 Godly men before 1830 who rejected a pre-trib theory. Then you do the same, yet without specific references to pages, titles, dates, etc. Once again, in open debate, you lose points. You even used several of th same authors who were quoted as rejecting a pre-trib, but mine had the SOURCES, yours did not. I gave actualy sources from where you can go to a library and read the actualy writings, not some book from a guy mis-quoting them.

I suggest if you debate this topic, to be accurate in what you quote me as saying, and try listening a litter better, or even bother reading my posts, then you may remember exactly what I said.

With all due respect, I think your doing a good job in attempting your pre-trib theory, but the last trump in Rev 11:15, and the fact that Paul said Antichist must first be revealed before the Rapture, cannot be avoided.

Back to te chronology of Revelation, as I said, most of it is in order, however severeal references in Chapter 6 take you ahead to further chapters at a glance. Example, Revelation 9:13-16 looses four angels which are prepared to do something, that literally does not happen till Rev 16:12-16. So understand when I'm saying it's not in perfect chronological order, it's because some events transpire in several different chapters, such as the river Euphrates, just mentioned. But for you to take this example and then claim I said Rev 4:1-12 is after the tribulation is a "mis-quote" and you would lose an open debate over such things.

Soon, you will believe mid-trib, along with the rest of the Church, once you realize we are in the tribulation. Then the issue of credibility will arise. I suggest you warn and teach God's people as the Apostle Paul did in II Thess 2:1-10. I say to you as Paul told the Thessaonians, "Let no man deceive you." You need to get un-taught first, realize the error of this fable, then you can be taught again. Nothing personal, just trying to help you get this right, that's all.

Bu I respect your efforts, but you have not convinencely still not shown, one verse that specifically shows we will escape te entire 7 yr tribulation. Revelation 3:10, Luke 21:36, and I Thess 5:9, promise deliverance frm God's wrath, the last 3 1/2 yrs, but not His judgments the first 3 1/2 yrs. The escape Jesus is refering to is the same "escape" in I Corinthians 10:13, an escape we will be able to endure, so we go "through it."

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

"But will WITH the temptation, make away of escape." Same escape and temptation of Rev 3:10 and Luke 21:36, same greek words used.

Your challenge to show one verse showing we will escape the entire 7 yr trib, has not ben met, because there is not such a verse in the entire Bible. We have shown hundrends of verses of evidence to show the Church in the tribulation.

Yours,

Michael

Score:

Bible Evidence     850
pre-trib theory       0
9  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 19, 2003, 09:25:45 PM
Are you ready for the final revelation of the timing of the Rapture? Well, it’s so simple and revealed in scripture, that it does not take a rocket scientist to accept this simple truth. The Apostle Paul tells us in scripture, that the Rapture will occur, “at the last trump.”

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This almost seems too simple, and it is! The Rapture will occur “at the last trump,” which is the last trumpet out of the seven, in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15. Now I’ve heard some ask the question, how do we know this last trumpet, is the last trumpet of Revelation chapter 11? We will explain and show exactly from scripture what Paul was referring to by the “last trump.” The word “last” is obviously the last in sequence. If you have 7 people in a straight line, and ask the last person to come forward, which one of the seven will it be? Of coarse the 7th person in line will come forward. Just as there are seven trumpets in the book of Revelation, the last trump, will be the 7th. This is the only sequence of trumpets in the entire Bible, so as not to confuse any other trumpets. Some have even said that this “last trump,” could not be the same trumpet in Revelation that Paul is referring to, because, quote, “That is not Paul’s last trump, because that’s an angelic trump, not the trump of God.” Whether God Himself blows the trumpet, or an Angel, it’s still the “last trump.” That’s reasoning, rather than Biblical interpretation, using precept upon precept. The sequence of trumpets starts in revelation 8:7 and concludes in Revelation 11:15. Just because it’s so simple to understand and so plainly laid out by Paul, does not mean it’s not a reality, or a fact.

Some mistake the last trump to be the same trumpet blown at the actually second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:31. But if this were the case, we would have already been raptured, because Matthew 24:29-31 is clearly referring to the literal second coming of Christ WITH HIS SAINTS, not for them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This trump of God, is the last trump of I Corinthians 15:52, and not to be confused with the “great sound of a trumpet” in Matthew 24:29-31, when Jesus comes back to earth near the time of Armageddon. The “last trump” will sound 3½ years prior to the “great sound of a trumpet” when Jesus comes back with His saints.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a clear distinction between these two events, for at this trumpet, “all the tribes of the earth shall see Jesus and mourn, and see Him coming.” At the Rapture, only the Bride will see Him and be taken up into the clouds to meet Him in the air. There is clearly a difference in these trumpets. We need to make sure we look at the context of these verses, and use scripture upon scripture. Thus we conclude that this, “great sounding of a trumpet,” or “great trump,” is not the same as the “last trump” of Revelation 11:15, where the Rapture takes place. Remember Zechariah 12:9-14? …”And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for him…..In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem….and all the land shall mourn, every family apart….all the families that remain, every family apart…” This is exactly what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:30, when He says, “…and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn..” This great trumpet is not the last trumpet of the Rapture, but rather the trumpet to be blown to announce Christ’s arrival upon the earth. Also notice Matthew 24:31, that when this trumpet blows, God’s elect will be gathered “from one end of heaven to the other,” not the gathering of saints from the earth in the Rapture.

Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall gotcha76 from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

At the “great trumpet,” many Jews that would have been killed by the Antichrist will be saved and delivered just in time. What a beautiful revelation the scriptures give us!

Now we are ready to put the final nail in the coffin, for a pre-tribulation Rapture. Take special note of the following verses.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Notice that when the seventh Angel is about to blow the last trumpet, that it says, “the mystery of God should be finished.” This mystery Paul was talking about is the mystery of the relationship between Christ and His Bride. It’s also referring to the Church age we are now living in. Once the last trumpet sounds, the Bride will be raptured, and the Church age, as we know it, will be over. Remember I Corinthians 15:50-52? Before Paul tells us the Rapture is at the “last trump,” he says, “Behold, I shew you a mystery..” The same word “mystery” is used in conjunction with Revelation 10:7, and the last trump. Here’s another golden nugget to add to this “mystery.”

Ephesians 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

The word “mystery “ is used again. When we place all the scriptures together on this great subject, a clearer picture can be seen. Once the trump sounds in Revelation 11:15, the mystery of God will be finished, and the Church age as we know it will cease. The only way this mystery can be finished, is if the Church is now no-where to be found.
10  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 19, 2003, 07:33:41 PM
Wreck,

The day of the Lord will be during the last 3 1/2 yrs of God's Wrath, towards the end, near the second coming of Christ.

The judgments of God will be the first 3 1/2 yrs and God's wrath the lt 3 1/2 ys.

Mike

11  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 19, 2003, 09:10:38 AM
I used to use that thought also. Look....

I held a determined pre-tribulation view, and I had my scriptures to back it up. During a conversation with a local, elderly, AG minister from Pennsylvania, back in 1986, we were discussing the timing of the Rapture, and I expressed my pre-tribulation view, and quoted I Thessalonians 5:2 to him saying “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” He looked back at me with a smile, placed his hand on my shoulder, and told me to read verse four. “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” I asked him if he believed the Church would be raptured before any of the seven-year tribulation period, and his response provoked me to further study. He told me with that gray-headed smile to “search the scriptures for myself, and see what the Holy Spirit shows me.” Of coarse his answer was dissatisfactory to me at that time, and went away thinking how wrong he was indeed. Having never again after that day seeing that minister, due to the fact that during Bible College we would frequent many different Churches, that smile always stuck with me. Now that I look back after many years, I now see that elderly smile with respect, for he could not have given me a better answer. About a year later, the Holy Spirit did indeed speak to me, directly from I Corinthians 15:52, and provoked me to even further study on this great topic, (among other things). Our prayer is to provoke you to love and good works, and to search the scriptures for yourself, and see what the Holy Ghost says.

I'm trying to help you build a better understanding in prophecy and things that are yet to come.  Holy Scripture must rest as our final authority, not Church teaching, tradition, or philosophy, or what we want to believe.

In Mark 13:35, Jesus said we don’t know when He will come, whether at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning. Our Lord may be referring to a specific time of day here, rather than a time within the seven-year night. No one can pinpoint the exact timing of the Rapture, nor ever will be able to. We do know that from Daniel 12:11, that once the Antichrist sets himself up as God in the temple, there will be 1290 days left until the end. But this has nothing to do with the Rapture or it’s timing. We also don’t know the exact day the tribulation will start, there will be no announcement made. We will one day realize we are in it, especially when God’s two prophets arise. Another indication will be Russia’s invasion of Israel in Ezekiel chapters 38-39, which will be the next earth-shaking event. But even then, we still cannot pick an exact day. The very day Russia invades Israel may not necessary be the exact day the seven-year tribulation period begins. So the “exact” day in the “midst,” or “middle” of the seven-year tribulation cannot be pin pointed. The only exact day is the very end of things according to Daniel 12:11, the 1290 days, but the Church will not need concern herself with that. However, with that said, we do know the Rapture is to occur in the middle of the tribulation, at the last trumpet of Revelation 11:15.

With all this Biblical evidence, we need to ask ourselves, are we going to take the scriptures, precept upon precept, line upon line, verse upon verse, or are we going to believe traditional thought? We will let you decide.


12  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 18, 2003, 10:30:43 PM
Dear friends,

Statistically, in the Church today, 76% of believers believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture, 6% believe in a mid-tribulation Rapture, and 9% believe in a post-tribulation Rapture. The remaining percentage either does not believe in the Rapture, or in something else, only the Lord knowing what that may be. So if you have switched your view, or at least raised an eyebrow, you are in the minority today. But before 1830, you would have been in the majority. Ask yourself an honest question. Does warning God’s people about these things to come, and preparing them, align with all the prophets in history and their warnings? Or does an easy escape from any hardships sound like a more familiar tune? From Genesis to Revelation, the “minority” received God’s warnings, whereas the “majority,” are historically seen in scripture as not wanting such warnings being told to them. The majority expected something else when Christ came, but the minority listened, believed, and followed.

Once we believe and understand the Church is going into half of the tribulation period, suddenly we identify ourselves with being there, and realize we will be a part of God’s end-time restoration. Things become more real, and the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel come alive. We will be part of the most exciting time the Church has ever seen. No matter what we face, His grace will be sufficient, and we will still have the blessed hope to comfort each other with. God will never give us more than we can bear, He will provide and deliver us, when the time is right. Jesus said, “FEAR NOT,” for I will be with you till the end of time.

For those who's pre-determined, pre-suppositions make them cling to a pre-trib theory, listen to one of your own pre-trib teachers, Hilton Sutton. Quote.....

“If you search for a single verse of scripture which states specifically that the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ and the catching up of the Church is prior to the tribulation, your search will be in vain. There is no such verse. (Rapture, Harrison House p. 55).

To hold a pre-trib vire is presumptious indeed.

Score:

Bible Evidence  750
pre-trib theory     0

Yours,
Michael

13  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 18, 2003, 10:23:14 PM
Drake, Any library has those sources, from volumes in (  ).

For those who think Revelation is in perect chronogical order, think again.

The book of Revelation is not in perfect chronological order. Most of it is, but there are several chapters, that are parentheses chapters if you will. These chapters are revelations for our learning, yet not necessarily in perfect chronological order. The seven seals, the seven trumpets, and the seven vials are in order, as is most of this wonderful book. However, when we look at the seven seals, these take place before the seven trumpets and seven vials of God’s wrath. Some get confused for example when reading Revelation 6:9-17, because the fifth and sixth seals are panoramic, future views of the wrath of God. The Lord did not seem fit to place every single verse in Revelation in perfect chronological order. Perhaps the Lord expected us to do a little dividing of the Word of Truth. When the sixth angel sounds the trumpet in Revelation 9:13 to loose the four angels to dry up the great river Euphrates, it actually does not physically happen until Revelation 16:12. “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.” In Revelation 9:15 they were loosed, but if we read the context, they were, “prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay a third part of men.” Then in Revelation 16:16, “He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”  Try not to get confused with the several chapters that take you outside of a perfect sequence.  The book of Revelation has plenty of references to the saints and brethren, and as previously shown, these represent those in the Church.

Precept must be upon precept.

Score:

Bible Evidence   475
pre-trib teory       0

Yours,

Michael
Prophecy Teacher
Jax, Fl
14  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 18, 2003, 06:33:21 PM
Bronze & Elder,

Suppose they got their crowns from the Lord. Irrevlant to the coming of Christ. Sorry to disappoint you, but historical facts show nobody expected Christ to come "any day" before 1830.

This does raise an eyebrow or two as to the originating source of the pre-trib view. Prior to 1830, a pre-tribulation rapture was not preached, teached, or even believed.  The historical facts have been documented, and proven to be historically correct, without any doubts. Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute, also verified the historical content to be accurate, and changed his view (Lovett’s PC, December, 1976).

Billy Graham said, “Perhaps the Holy Spirit is getting His Church ready for a trial and tribulation such as the world has never known” (Sam Shoemaker’s Under New Management, p. 72).

Leonard Ravenhill, a once famous Christian author with volumes about revival, prayer, and separation, wrote, “There is a cowardly Christianity which…still comforts its fainting heart with the hope that there will be a rapture--- perhaps today---to catch us away from coming tribulation” (Sodom had no Bible, p. 94).

George Mueller (1805-1898) quotes, “The scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostasy shall have taken place, and the man of sin….shall have been revealed..”  (Mrs. Mueller’s Missionary Tours and Labours, p.148).

John Foxe (1516-1587) quotes, “..that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church…to disturb the whole Church of Christ..” (Acts and Monuments, I).

John Knox (1515-1572) quotes, “…the great love of God towards his Church, whom he pleased to forewarne of dangers to come, so many years before they come to passé….to wit, The man of sin, The Antichrist, The Whore of Babilon” (The Historie of the Reformatioun…, I, p. 76).

Martin Luther (1483-1546), the great reformer, quotes, “The book of Revelation is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future, and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church…” (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).

John Wycliffe (1320-1382) quotes, “Wherefore let us pray to God that he keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming upon all the world, Rev. iii” (Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe, D.D., p. 155).

Roger Bacon (1214-1274) quotes, “…because of future perils (for the Church) in the times of Antichrist…” (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).

Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) quotes, “There remains only one thing—that demon of noonday (Antichrist) should appear, to seduce those who remain still in Christ…” (Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).

Augustine (673-735) quotes, “But he who reads this passage (Daniel 12), even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church…” (The City of God, XX, 23).

Jerome (340-420) quotes, “I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before” (Epistle 21).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373) quotes, “Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear…” (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Hippolytus (160-240) quotes, “…the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains” (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).

Irenaeus (140-202) quotes, “And they (the ten kings who shall arise) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight” (Against Heresies, V, 26).

Justin Martyr (100-168) quotes, “The man of apostasy (Antichrist), who speaks strange things against the most high, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians…” (Dialogue with Trypho, 110).

Hermas (40-140), who the Apostle Paul mentions in Romans 16:14, quotes, “Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire (of the great tribulation that is yet to come), will be purified by means of it….Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints…” (The Pastor of Hermas, Vision 4).

Barnabus (40-100) quotes, “The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches…for the whole (past) time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger….That the Black One (Antichrist) may find no means of entrance…” (Epistle of Barnabus, 4).

Apostle Paul (In 54AD) quotes, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” (Paul’s epistle to the Thessalonians II, 2:3).

According to history, this author and work proclaiming a mid-tribulation rapture, feels he is in good company. With all that said, the only traditional Church teaching we should hold to, is that which is contained in scripture.

Mike
15  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re:Bride of Christ & the Mid-Tribulation Rapture on: May 18, 2003, 01:46:45 PM
Wreck,

There is only one Bride of Christ, which comes forth out of the Church. Those left behind, are likened unto the foolish virgins that were not prepared. Read Revelation chapter 12.

The whole entire Church doe not go in the Rapture, only the Bride. Just as Adam (which is a type of the Church) was asleep and a bride came forth out of his rib, so is the Bride of Christ, a holy rib, remnant is Raptured from out of the Church.

Mke

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