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277667 Posts in 26442 Topics by 3790 Members
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1  Theology / Debate / Re: Post Trib defies scripture on: July 10, 2011, 08:57:33 PM
Rev 3:10  10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Now the word that is translated from is the word 'ek' which is defined the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon as ek: prep  A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause)

In other words it denotes a point of origin where action or motion proceeds to some other place or time.  Examples would be coming out of a house, moving out of one year into another, or a cause as in being pulled out of a war.  Whether you are talking a place, a time or a cause, the definition means being moved from the object of the preposition ( ie;  the hour of trial ) to some other position. 

Since we are told that the Antichrist will be given power over the saints and he will overcome them, how is promise kept in a post tribulation view?

Rev 13:7  7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

And my second question is simply What is the purpose of the tribulation, and how does the church going through the tribulation serve that purpose?
 


I agree with you that this is what the Scripture teaches. It is reinforced by a type in the Old Testament. 1Pe 3:20  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. However, nine people, not eight, survived from pre-flood days. The ninth was Enoch, who was taken up to God some time before the flood. Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Enoch was a type of the church and was removed from the earth before the flood. Noah and his family were a type of Israel, and were saved by being hidden away in an ark during the flood.

In the last days, the church will be taken up before the tribulation: Notice the church is never mentioned after Revelation 3. 2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8  And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming; The Holy Spirit, dwelling in the church (believers) is now hindering and opposing evil, but He will be taken away when the church is raptured and evil will have full sway over the earth (the tribulation). The surviving remnant of the Jews will be saved as Noah was: Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The types are important enough to God that Moses was denied entry into the Promised Land for breaking one!

Another evidence is the two harvests of Revelation: Rev. 14: 14 - 16 pictures the church being removed from the earth and kept safe from God's wrath. Rev. 14: 17 - 20 illustrates God's wrath being poured out upon the remainder of mankind, most particularly at Armageddon.
2  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re: JAPAN EARTHQUAKE: MARCH 2011 on: June 25, 2011, 03:29:18 PM
"Reports from friends in Japan - including one who was initially skeptical about the scale of the problems at Fukushima - have now changed in tone by 180 degrees. You can almost feel the growing sense of desperation as the already massively indebted nation begins to slide toward an abyss. There is little standing in the way of the world's third-largest economy's slide." David Galland. http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/greater-depression-now

All it would take is a similar major catastrophe here, or an accumulation of smaller ones, to push us over the edge.
3  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re: Will the Body of Christ Go Through the Tribulation? [MUST READ] on: May 25, 2011, 11:46:49 AM
The world will resist him, and the result will be a Third World War in which he "will destroy to an extraordinary degree" (Daniel 8:24). This war will initially result in the death of one-fourth of humanity, or 1.5 billion (roughly) people in today's terms (Revelation 6:2-8). As the Tribulation approaches its mid-point, this war will escalate into a nuclear holocaust (I believe) that will result in the deaths of an additional one-third of those still alive -- another 1.5 billion (Revelation 8 and 9).

It will be a empty victory because in the process of his conquest, one-third of the earth will be destroyed and half its population will be killed. He will then consolidate his "victory" by instituting a one-world economy and a one-world religion.

The key to his economic control will be a mark that each person will have to bear on their right hand or on their forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). No one will be able to buy or sell unless they have this mark. The mark will consist of "either the name of the beast or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:18).

Great summary, Shammu. The only point I might disagree with you on is that the "desire of women" is usually considered to be "becoming the mother of the Messiah", so this wouldn't particularly refer to sexual immorality, only that he has no regard for Christ. He may well be sexually immoral, but I don't think this passage refers to that.

I might also add that it would seem that in the early years of the tribulation, technological civilization as we know it is largely destroyed. This is logical considering the wars and natural disasters taking place. People don't realize how fragile our civilization is and how dependent on cheap and easily available energy and on unhindered transportation. But notice that the battle of Armageddon takes place with horses and wooden weapons! Not with unmanned drones, tanks, aircraft, etc.

Responding to soldier4christ, it seems all of the monotheistic religions are looking forward to the return of a savior and end times. This makes them extremely vulnerable to being misled and falling for the antichrist. So he will find it fairly easy to become a religious leader as well as a political one. I don't think he will be Islamic, but most likely of Jewish origin if he claims to be Messiah. I doubt the popes have much to do with it, unless there is a big turnaround in the Catholic church. The Catholic church is pretty much on the ropes at present. Of course, the collapse of the EU (increasingly likely) might bring them into power, as the collapse of Rome did.

 Dan 11:37  Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38  But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

 These verses would seem to show that the Antichrist is of Jewish origin (God of his fathers, desire of women (Messiah)). I doubt he is a practicing Jew - if he actually worships anything besides himself, it is military power (god of forces or fortresses).

The "mark of the beast" is most likely just that, not a social security number or implanted chip, as the technology for those things will be largely destroyed.

I personally believe the time is soon:

1. We are headed for a major economic collapse. Though things have turned around temporarily, that only gives the politicians an excuse not to deal with the problems. A worldwide economic collapse will have people looking for a man to turn things around, and will force nations to yield to him.

2. Genetic engineering has us on the verge of irreversibly altering God's creation. God will let this go for awhile to show us what horrors we are capable of creating (Rev. 9: 1 - 11?), then He will pull the plug on modern technological civilization.

3. Most people remain ignorant, but food shortages are becoming a major problem, and prices are skyrocketing. It is this, not a desire for democracy, that is behind the "Arab Spring". Starvation, unrest, rebellion, and famine are next on the agenda, especially if the erratic weather continues. (No, I'm not pushing global warming, but I do believe it is a warning from God.)

4. The world seems to be moving in two opposite directions. On one level, it is consolidating towards one world government, with more and more power in the hands of an elite and less and less in the hands of the people. On the other, it is fragmenting into smaller nations and even tribal groups who refuse to answer to others. Even in the US you can see that, with the growth of the Tea Party, States Rights movement, etc while the government, especially the executive,  continues to consolidate more and more power in its own hands. Eventually the situation will result in anarchy, a golden opportunity for the antichrist to take control on grounds of restoring order, national security, etc.

4  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re: Will the Body of Christ Go Through the Tribulation? [MUST READ] on: May 24, 2011, 01:07:32 PM
My understanding is that the spirit of anti-Christ is already here and has been and that it is not any one person.

Christ was one person - the anti-christ will also be, as he is a false Christ.

Rev 13:18  Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Six is the number of man - always just short of perfection (7). The triple 6 is man as god, the false trinity. The anti-christ will claim to be the messiah, God incarnate. Six is the number of a man, so the anti-christ will be a man, not a "spirit".

As Jesus said that even the angels don't know the time of His return, Satan as a fallen angel doesn't either. Therefore he always has to have an anti-christ waiting. So the anti-christ is always alive on the earth at any time, but not always the same person.

I suspect you are basing your argument on the following verses: 1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.   2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. But you have to distinguish between "an antichrist" and "the antichrist". There is a spirit of antichrist - it is manifested in anyone who denies the real Christ was God come in the flesh. There are a lot of "antichrists" around today in the sense they deny Christ was God, His resurrection, or even that He really existed. They are anti-christs in the sense that they oppose Christ and are deceivers.
There is also a man who will reign as antichrist in the last days during the tribulation. 2Th 2:3 clearly states he is a man: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
5  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re: Will the Body of Christ Go Through the Tribulation? [MUST READ] on: May 24, 2011, 10:31:40 AM
1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Enoch is a picture of the church. Enoch didn't go through the flood, but was taken up by God before it happened. The church also will be raptured before the tribulation. This is reinforced by: 2Th 2:7  For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall be revealed the lawless one,
 
The antichrist won't be revealed until the one who restrains or hinders (the Holy Spirit) is taken away. The Holy Spirit dwells within believers (the church). When the church is removed, there will be no restraint at all on evil and the tribulation will begin.

Gen 7:15  And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Israel, like Noah, will go through the Tribulation. But a remnant will be saved: Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
6  Entertainment / Computer Hardware and Software / Re: Increase in Knowledge/New Technologies on: May 17, 2011, 01:37:33 PM
End In Sight For Roll Calls As Schools Prep Kids For Head And Hand Scanning
www.independent.ie


An Irish software firm has brought the traditional school attendance register into the computer age.

Two schools have already adopted the latest face-recognition technology to monitor attendance and timekeeping among thousands of pupils, and other schools are planning to introduce the system from September.

Students simply look at a device when they arrive at school and, within seconds, they are scanned, identified and their attendance is registered.

It saves hours of teachers' time recording attendance and 'lates', and provides an at-a-glance record of who's in and who's out.

It also makes it easy to track poor attendance or lateness patterns, which would allow for early intervention to nip a problem in the bud.

And it overcomes the so-called 'buddy punching' problem, where a student can make a false registration by swiping in someone else's card.

Templeogue College in south Dublin has become the first school here to use the system to track attendance and timekeeping among its 700 pupils.

It has also been installed in Ardscoil Ris, Limerick, in recent weeks and a number of other schools are planning to use it from September.

The Anseo Enterprise system has been created by the Co Kerry software company, Ivertec, specialising in educational products and costs an average of about 15 per pupil.

Face-recognition software is now widely used as an ID system, but this is the first time it has been adopted by schools in this country.

A student is required to do little beyond perhaps pulling back a long fringe so the scanner gets a clear view of the face.

Templeogue principal Aoife O'Donnell said they wanted an accurate and efficient system to replace the time-consuming tradition of rolls.

They were investigating systems such as swipe cards when they learned of the face-recognition software, which eliminates the issue of lost or forgotten cards.

She said parents have been generally supportive.

"Within five minutes of school starting, we know exactly who is in the building and if students come in late, it will show up," Ms O'Donnell said.

It is too early to say what impact the system will have on attendance and timekeeping, but when fully operational she said it would allow them to build up attendance profiles.

Ms O'Donnell added that, in an era of cutbacks, staff time was much better employed in teaching rather than in checking and recording attendance manually across a minimum of 24 classes every day.

Sixth-year student Luke O'Callaghan-White (17), said there were a few 'Big Brother'-style jokes initially, but that had all passed. He said the system was "straightforward, efficient and preferable to a year head interrupting the first class for five minutes" to take a roll.

I wonder how it works with the girls who at that age believe the more makeup the better? I remember when I was in junior high the photographer couldn't even get a good picture of one girl because her face reflected so much light!
7  Theology / General Theology / Re: Mormonism on: May 05, 2011, 11:23:00 AM
Yes, Mormonism is a cult, but there are a lot of good people misled by it. You would be surprised how many Mormons don't really know what their church believes!
8  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Things That Don't Make Sense on: May 03, 2011, 10:38:16 AM
Funny, my animals don't care what I call them as long as they get fed, watered, walked, and played with! Roll Eyes
9  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Osama bin Laden - Dead! on: May 03, 2011, 10:35:54 AM
I don't believe much the government says, especially with their lies about inflation and unemployment, but since Pakistan also reported on the incident it likely did take place.

Whether Osama was actually killed or not is problematic. If they captured him alive, they would still say he was killed to prevent Americans being taken hostage to trade for his release. However, as it took 40 minutes to actually penetrate the compound and find Bib Laden, it is likely he wasn't taken by surprise and wouldn't have surrendered, but would have died rather than being taken prisoner.

Burying him at sea was genius in one way, as people won't be making his grave a shrine, but the other side is many people in the Muslim world won't believe he is really dead, even if we release photos and DNA.

Our government can't do much right, but in this case they seem to have done it all right as far as was possible for them. Congratulations to the Seals!
10  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Donald Trump on: April 29, 2011, 10:27:01 AM
Trump is leading because he is saying all the right things, things that most of the rest of the Republican candidates are wishy-washy on, like getting our jobs back from China.
Unfortunately, I question whether Trump really believes these things and will work on them if elected - he seems to have changed many of his positions over the years. Does he really believe them, or has he figured out what will get him votes and has no intention of really doing those things.
11  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: 2012 Candidates on: April 28, 2011, 11:08:00 AM
Does anyone ever consider that the perpetual obsession with who will be the next president is a symptom of a major problem with our country? The Founding Fathers established a Republic, not a monarchy. It is supposed to be Congress that originates legislation and deals with problems requiring government action. The President is supposed to be an executive, carrying out the wishes of the people expressed through their Congressional representatives.
Unless Congress is reformed, people will continue "looking for a man" to solve their problems every four years, and being perpetually disappointed, until they finally find a man who will dissolve Congress, suspend or ignore the Constitution, and attack problems with dictatorial strength. This is what happened to the Roman Republic, and the process is well underway here.
The "looking for a man" mindset is also what will lead to people welcoming and accepting the Antichrist.
12  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Birth Certificate on: April 28, 2011, 11:00:28 AM
Actually the Constitution didn't define what "natural born citizen" meant, which leaves it to the law to define. As of now, it is defined by the 14th amendment and Title 8 section 1401 of the law. "Anyone born inside the United States". This would mean the children of illegal aliens are natural born citizens.
You can get into hair splitting here - are children delivered by Cesarean section "Natural born"?
Absent evidence of original intent, such as writings of the men who originally authored the requirements explaining what they meant (such as do exist for gun rights), the "birthers" really don't have a case now. I expect the original intent was specific to the time, to exclude people with overly strong British connections.
 Let's drop the matter and deal with our debt problems.
13  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Chistian World Views on: April 15, 2011, 07:47:07 PM
People delaying religious commitment: study
www.canada.com


Not only are longer life expectancies allowing people to postpone retirement, they feel less rushed to make peace with God, a new study suggests.

Research out of the United Kingdom links the decline in religious participation in developed countries, where life expectancies are high, and the idea that time isn't running out as fast on people's chances to secure a place in heaven.

"Many religions and societies link to some degree the cumulative amount of religious effort to benefits in the afterlife," said Elissaios Papyrakis, an economist at the University of East Anglia and one of the study's authors. "We show that higher life expectancy discounts expected benefits in the afterlife and is therefore likely to lead to postponement of religiosity, without necessarily jeopardizing benefits in the afterlife."

In Canada, the percentage of people aged 15 or older reporting no religious affiliation whatsoever had grown to 16 per cent by 2001 compared to four per cent in 1971, according to Statistics Canada. Data also shows the proportion of people attending religious activities weekly had shrunk to 21 per cent by 2005 from 30 per cent in 1985.

Based on data from between 2005 and 2007, Statistics Canada said the average life expectancy in Canada is 80.7 years of age, up from 78.4 a decade earlier.

The study, published in the online edition of International Journal of Social Economics, noted that religious participation is high in less developed countries where life expectancies are low. For example, it said that 95 per cent of people in Nigeria attend church at least monthly, and that rate is 91 per cent in Pakistan. It said this kind of religious participation is at just 15 per cent in Britain.

Rev. Kevin DeRaaf, pastor of Faith Christian Reform Church in Burlington, Ont., said he's never considered a link between living longer and declining interest in religion, but said it could be a factor.

"When you have a good healthcare system, when people are able to manage crises very much through practical means, it can push some of the faith issues to the background," DeRaaf said.

The U.K. study said religious organizations looking to attract members should focus less on benefits in the afterlife, and more on what can be offered in one's worldly life from the Church. Such things could include expanding one's social circle, participation in various activities, spiritual fulfilment and guidance.

DeRaaf said he agreed with that notion to some degree, but added that consideration about the afterlife can't be dismissed, because it is so central to religion.

He added that churches across Canada have made efforts in recent years to become more involved in the practical matters of their communities. As an example, he said his own church is involved in social housing.

"The central story for us is the story of Jesus, who had a strong teaching and healing ministry," DeRaaf said. "He encountered people and made an immediate impact on their lives in the here and now, which drew them into the larger story of eternal issues."

Rev. Robert Dalgleish, executive director of ministry development for the United Church of Canada, said for him personally, religion has always been more about how to live currently rather than a preoccupation with heaven or hell.

"But I think the Church has not always made that clear to people, so I would agree with the (study) authors' claim . that the Church does need to make the case that religion is about life -it's about this life," Dalgleish said.

People are delaying everything - marriage, having children, and especially growing up and being responsible. So it isn't surprising they delay involvement with religion.
14  Entertainment / Politics and Political Issues / Re: Schools on: April 15, 2011, 07:43:17 PM
Yep, the Nanny State is alive and well. We definitely need to shrink government, but this is an example of how the biggest offenders in this area are local and State governments, not the Federal Government on which the conservatives are fixated. Shifting power from the Fed. Government to State and local governments isn't going to fix this problem, since at those levels both liberals and conservatives support "nanny state" initiatives. Zoning, land use, etc. are just as much nanny state ideas.
15  Theology / Prophecy - Current Events / Re: U.S. Dollar and Food Prices on: April 07, 2011, 12:24:42 AM
For what we spent on missiles in Libya, we probably could have paid off Qaddafi and bought his resignation for less.

We could save trillions by closing most of our 700 plus bases overseas and bringing most of our troops home. After all, which our Republican Constitutionalists ignore, the Founding Fathers believed the US should never maintain a standing military except in time of war (declared by Congress), and should avoid at all costs alliances with foreign powers that would drag us onto wars. (This would include such organizations as the UN.)

If we spent the money we waste on the military in a crash program to get off oil, we wouldn't need to be anywhere else, and could let the Islamic terrorists drink their oil!

The Republicans have a lot of nerve insisting on cuts to Social Security and Medicare while companies can make billions and not pay a penny of income tax, and while they want tax breaks for oil companies already making record profits, and tax cuts for companies creating jobs - in China.

The Republicans are right about many things, though. The US government should get out of education entirely and close down the Department of Education. Many other agencies should either be closed or consolidated. However, this would include Homeland Security, a wasteful boondoggle unsuccessfully created to get intelligence agencies to share information. Better to eliminate it and consolidate all intelligence into two agencies - FBI for domestic matters and CIA for foreign ones.
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