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286  Theology / Debate / Re:Abortion Poll For Christians Only on: February 22, 2004, 06:59:04 PM
Psalms 139:13 For You have possessed my inward parts; You wove me in the womb of my mother.
14 I will thank You, for with awesome ways I am distinguished; Your works are marvelous, and my soul knows it very well.
15 My bones were not hidden from You when I was made in secret; when I was woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my embryo; and in Your book all my members were written the days they were formed, and not one was yet among them.

*****  That says it all  Grin   Grin   Grin
287  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 18, 2004, 09:15:28 PM
Yes, Petro, His Word is a fat book  Grin

His Word is like pure silver forged in the fire seven times, and it does not return void - it accomplishes what He has purposed  Grin

Shalom, Nancy  Cool
288  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 18, 2004, 01:22:55 PM
Petro:  Many will agree salvation is 100% of God, but if asked to explain this idea, none can, they always state, they believed, and will even argue this point as being their part in their salvation.

Yet the verse which even make sit clear, belief in Jesus was given by God is;

Phil 1
29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Having shared this with you, I wonder if you would go so far as to agree with this?

Somehow, I just do not see this as off the mark, I see the claim man believes or produces some kind of faith, as being off the mark..and from there all other sorts of errors are born.
Nancy: I totally agree with you.  We are born children of darkness and having no love of His Light or Truth in us.  For this reason, Jesus was sent - He is the Light of the World, the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  He is the Creator of all things.  Faith comes from Him for He is faith.  The moment we believe that anything that comes from within ourselves has any fragment or element of righteousness we are full of pride and deception.

Rom 12:3   For through the grace which is given to me, I say to everyone being among you, not to have high thoughts beyond what is right to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God divided a measure of faith to each.

Rom 10:17   Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.[Jesus is the Word of God made flesh - John 1:14]

Jude :3   Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Jude :20   But you, beloved, building yourselves up by your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, eagerly awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to everlasting life.

Hebrew 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out.
8 Having been called out by faith, Abraham obeyed to go forth to a place which he was going to receive for an inheritance; and he went out not understanding where he went.
[in reading this chapter, "by faith" accompanies each example of faith - verse 8 - Abe was called out by faith]

Heb 12
1  So therefore we also, having so great a cloud of witnesses lying around us, having laid aside every weight and the easily surrounding sin, through patience let us also run the race set before us,
2   looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, Jesus
, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, "and sat down at the right" of the throne of God. Psa. 110:1
3 For consider Him who had endured such gainsaying of sinners against Himself, that you do not grow weary, fainting in your souls.

Luke 17:5   And the apostles said to the Lord, Give us more faith.
6 But the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard, you may say to this sycamine tree, Be rooted up and be planted in the sea! And it would obey you.
7 But which of you having a slave plowing or feeding will say at once to him coming out of the field, Come, recline?
8 But will he not say to him, Prepare something what I may eat, and having girded yourself, serve me until I eat and drink, and after these things you shall eat and drink?
9 Does not he have thanks to that slave because he did the things commanded of him? I think not.
10 So also when you have done all things commanded you, you say, We are unprofitable slaves, for we have done what we ought to do.
[imho, I believe Jesus is saying:  you want more faith? - then do what I have commanded you and I will give you the faith you need to obey - it comes from Me as your Master]
Petro:  I am still interested in hearing how JP Green has translated the verses. . . If you could please post them for me..

Gal 2:16  [LITV]  16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). Psa. 123:2
Psa 123:1,2   I will lift up my eyes on You, O Dweller in Heaven.
2 Behold, as the eyes of servants look to the hand of their masters; as the eyes of a maiden to the hand of her mistress; so our eyes wait on Jehovah our God, until He shows grace to us.

Jay Green's Literal Translation online:  litvonline.com
Jay Green's Modern King James Version:  mjkvonline.com
Petro:  My problem is that the unlearned, can get derailed, by the misuse of these little words, "faith of Jesus", does not sound the same as "faith in Jesus", unless you understand that faith is a gift, many do not believe this is so..they see the grace of Eph 2:8-9 as a gift, but faith is not, I see both as being a gift, which means to me salvation is 100% of God.

Nancy:  Absolutely.  What is man?  but a breath - all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Shalom, Nancy   Cool

289  Theology / Apologetics / Re:How can we be His Hands and Feet? on: February 18, 2004, 11:33:55 AM
Thanks, Tom for your generous offer to provide Bibles for my friends!  I am so thankful that God has moved your heart to do this  Smiley.

I have one request for a Bible currently. Two of the guys [my Cuban friend has a Spanish Bible], have Bibles and I am slowly getting the information from the others.

Right now, I know there are some Bibles available at:
http://chrlitworld.com/.  They have the new Modern King James Version in stock as seconds for $20 each.  I just got one from there - it is a $60 Bible reg price.  It has a leather cover, gold edges and all the words of God, OT and NT, in red.  I cannot tell the difference from a reg one.  The print size is excellent and easy to read.  The Bible is really cool, because it is based on the KJV without all the thees and thous and has updated the words to more modern English without departing from the intent of the text as the modern versions have done.  The webpage that comes up gives you an 800 number call to order - you cannot order the seconds online.  

The Bibles sent to guys on death row have to come from a business/bookstore with zero information in the box - no receipts, no catalouge, so if you choose to order one, you need to specify this information.  You cannot enclose anything but the Bible, not even a note of any kind.  There must be absolutely no invoice attached to the box either - it has to be a straight send with only the prisioner address and the return address of the company or bookstore on the box.  Some prisons are more lenient, but it is frustrating to have these items returned because someone in the mail room takes the rules and plays a hard line with them.  It happens all the time - just tying to save double postage and resend hassle!

If you have your own source for Bibles, this is cool. Personally, I am cautious about versions - far too much controversy and distance from God's intent, imho - many verses are missing and the Deity of Jesus is damaged in most of them.  Again, I understand ones personal views on this - just thinking outloud on paper  Grin.

Thanks, broken, for the websites!  Cool!  I will take this opportunity to say that what these guys can receive is extremely limited.  Posters, CD's, tapes, gifts, and personal items are not allowed.  Sometimes even internet material is rejected and I have to cut that off when I print off material. Every prison has different rules.  Receiving stamps, envelopes and writing paper is also varied dependent on the correctional facility.  Thankfully, after a year and half of messing around within the system I am getting a handle on it!

Thanks, again, for your help and support!

Love and Shalom,
290  Theology / Apologetics / How can we be His Hands and Feet? on: February 17, 2004, 09:47:04 PM
I am currently writing to several prisoners on death row.  I am hooked up through Christian Pen Pals, who need people to write to, and encourage those incarcerated.  If you are interested, the link is below.

I am in immediate need of material to send them - Bibles, study material, correspondence courses, that kind of thing.  I have been given some good resources, which will help me immensely [thank you, Tom!], but I am trying to build up a good foundation of material so that I can individualize it.  There is such a wide range of need.  I have one guy who is Cuban and is struggling with his English a bit, so anything too deep is useless for him, something in Spanish would be excellent.  On the other hand, I have a couple of guys who would excel if given a challenge.

Anyone have ideas or resources I can tap into?  Thanks!!!

Love and Shalom in Messiah,

CPP:  http://www.christian-penpals.com/

CPP email addy for information: cppnews@hotmail.com
291  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 17, 2004, 09:29:02 PM
Petro wrote:
This same exchange of two other words appear at;

Gal 2
16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

Gal 2
16  know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we. too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.  NIV

Do these two verses state exactly the same thing?

How does JP Green quote the verse?

"Of" and "in",  are not synonomous in the english vocabulary, or are they?
I looked it up - he uses both - his online Bible uses in and his linear NT uses into/of.

If I may interject here - it is hard, at times, to define the English compared to the Greek.  This verse has a concept that I have begun to understand in a little more depth recently.  Faith in God is of God.  In other words - we do not have faith on our own.  It is a gift.  Therefore; to say we have faith in Messiah or of Him is really saying the same thing.  It is His faith in us, not ours.

If I say to you, I have love in my heart for God or I say the love of my heart is God - am I saying the same thing?  For me, the answer is yes.  I cannot love God if He is not in me.

Shalom, Nancy  Cool
292  Theology / Bible Study / Re:Bible Facts! on: February 14, 2004, 06:40:33 PM
WOW, Tom - that was the most incredible and fantastic sermon I ever heard on the Trinity!!!!!!!!!!!!  I have been on a forum recently that has sliced and diced this concept every which way including loose.  You do not know how absolutely thrilled I was to read your short, but dead on theology and then to read Scripture after Scripture,  supporting the Awesome, mindboggling concept of the mystery, power and authority of our Majestic Creator, Savior, and Friend - WOW - HALLELUJAH!!!
I feel like dancing  Grin!!!!
293  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 13, 2004, 07:14:26 PM
Crusader wrote:
" . . . we affirm that water baptism has no place in God's spiritual program for the Body of Christ in this day of grace".
Could you be a little more specific on this?  I am really curious!!!
294  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 13, 2004, 07:12:05 PM
        I am definitely on the same page as you.  It is crucial for correct interpretation of the Word to make sure every word is properly applied.  I have pasted from the blueletterbible - a concordance - which gives the definition of the word "ev" used in that verse.  The Greek is a preposition and can be interpreted as on, in, with, etc.  
      Just food for thought - Jesus is the Word - John 1:1, 14.  So the cleansingwashing of/in/by/with the Word is really all in the same ballpark.  I am curious as to why you separate out the work of the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is God/Jesus, so therefore the work is God's.  I understand that it is the power of the Spirit, but I find is not condusive to split up the work per se, between Who does what.  When I read the Book, I believe it is God speaking to me and He will accomplish His work in me as I remain submitted to Him, however He chooses.

Lexicon Results for en (Strong's 1722)
Greek for 1722
Pronunciation Guide
en {en}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:537,233 a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537)
Part of Speech
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) in, by, with etc.

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count Total: 2800
AV - in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62,
     through 39, misc 264; 2800
Thayer's Lexicon (Help)
295  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 12, 2004, 07:38:26 PM
Petro wrote:  My eyes light up, when I see scriptures that sound foreign to me.

Please tell me which scripture version you are quoting from.
I hope that your eyes lighting up means a positive response  Cool !!!   I use the "Literal Translation" by Jay P. Green Sr. based on the TR.
296  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 12, 2004, 07:06:56 PM
Nice post, Pedro!  It really impelled me to dig into the aspect of the blood of Jesus and a couple of other verses that we have always "attached" to water baptism, but in context to these other verses, may have a deeper meaning.

Definitely not to dismiss the importance of water baptism, which is a command and imperative for one's spiritual life.

There is quite a bit of scripture here, but necessary for the full impact of our redemption in the blood of Jesus.  The Eph 4:5 text "one baptism" in connjunction with 1 Peter 3:21 refers to this whole picture of Jesus being our baptism, when you compile the texts together for an overall picture, imho.

Eph 5:25   Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
27 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:4   But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior;
7 that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Rom 6:3   Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:9   For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority,
11 in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead.

Eph 4:4   There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, the One above all and through all and in you all.

Col 1:12   giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light,
13 who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins;
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

Eph 1:3   Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ,
4 even as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
5 predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace in which He favored us in the One having been loved,
7 , in whom we have redemption through His bloodthe remission of deviations, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding,

Heb 9:11 But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
12 nor through the blood of goats and of calves, but through His own blood, He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having procured everlasting redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and ashes of a heifer sprinkling those having been defiled, sanctifies to the purity of the flesh,
14 by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!15 And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
16 For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered.
17 For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living.
18 From which neither the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
19 For when every command had been spoken according to Law by Moses to all the people, having taken the blood of the calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll and all the people,
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God enjoined to you." Ex. 24:8
21 And he likewise sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the service vessels with the blood.
22 And almost all things are purified by blood according to the Law; and apart from shedding of blood no remission occurs.
23 Then it was needful for the figures of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter into the Holy of Holies made by hands, types of the true things, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf,
25 not that He should often offer Himself even as the high priest enters into the Holy of Holies year by year with blood of others;
26 since He must often have suffered from the foundation of the world. But now once for all, at the completion of the ages, He has been manifested for putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment;
28 so Christ having been once offered "to bear the sins of many," Christ shall appear a second time without sin to those expecting Him for salvation. Isa. 53:12

Rev 5:7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne.
8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign over the earth

297  Theology / General Theology / Re:By grace you have been saved. on: February 11, 2004, 07:03:08 PM
[LITV]  1 Peter 3:21 Which antitype now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who going into Heaven is at the right of God, the angels, and authorities, and powers being subjected to Him).

[MKJV] 1 Peter 3:21 which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.

[Unknown Version quoted by Unworthy]  1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not  the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for  a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Within the contest of this verse, is the fact that Jesus saves and in Him is the baptism of salvation.   The order of words in the original Greek - here in English [based on the Bynzantine or Textus Receptus manuscripts - about 5,ooo] is:  which also us antitype now saves baptism, not of flesh putting away if (the) filth, but conscience of a good an answer toward God, through (the) resurrection of Jesus.   In other words, salvation is not getting cleansed in water, but belief in Him as the resurrected Jesus [Greek - Iesous - God is salvation]

 Jesus said that salvation comes from regeneration of Spirit and Water [John 3].  He is the Living Water.  He is Spirit.  His baptism of Spirit was "upon" Him - which pointed to His anointing to heal and deliver [Luke 4 - He was anointed = Christ or Messiah].  He is Spirit, being God in the flesh.

298  Theology / General Theology / Re:Judas Iscariot on: February 07, 2004, 08:24:53 PM
They understood that He was the Messiah - the Son of the Living God.  They did not understand the why He had to die.
As I noted in a previous post, the Messiah to come, for them meant a physical Deliverer, not a spiritual One.  The disciples also did not understand that He would rise from the dead.
299  Theology / General Theology / Re:Judas Iscariot on: February 07, 2004, 06:07:23 PM
Did Judas know that Jesus was God?

Matt 16:13 And coming into the parts of Caesarea of Philip, Jesus questioned His disciples, saying, Whom do men say Me the Son of Man to be?
14 And they said, Some say John the Baptist, and others Elijah, and others Jeremiah, or one of the prophets.
15 He said to them, But you, whom do you say Me to be?
16 And answering, Simon Peter said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.
19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.
20 Then He warned His disciples that they should tell no one that He is Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time, Jesus began to show to His disciples that it was necessary for Him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and to be killed, and to be raised on the third day.

Judas knew.  Plus, Jesus sent out the 70 to heal and rebuke demons, in His Name - Judas was one of them.  satan entered Judas at the Last Supper which is why and how he could betray the Son of the Living God.
300  Theology / General Theology / Re:Judas Iscariot on: February 07, 2004, 04:05:26 PM
It is true that Judas was destined to betray Jesus so that the Scriptures could be fulfilled.  The "how", is perhaps the question that is being asked.

At the time of Jesus arrival on earth, the Messiah had long been anticipated.  The Jewish nation was looking for a reigning King as Messiah, not a servant.  This is one reason the Sandhedrin would not accept Jesus and why they continually questioned Him.  Isra'el was under Roman rule, and it was heartless and harsh.  Expectancy that God would deliver His people once again, in the same way He did from Egypt, was foremost on people's hearts.  Remember, that Moses had prophecied that One would come like him, but greater than him.  That is sort of a simplistic over-view - but I think you get the idea.

Judas Iscariot was a zealot, a politcal type person and probably hard driven to excel and motivated to fight.  imho, I believe that when He saw the miracles of Jesus and the words He spoke against the Sanhedrin - he "tasted blood".  He was calculating and mercanery.  At one point we discover he had been stealing money from Jesus.  This leads me to understand that he was not motivated by love and his intentions were evil and Jesus knew it.  He was also very crafty and covered himself well.  Why else would the disciples been totally at a loss as to who would betray Jesus at the last supper?  Judas was very good at what he did.  He did not have a heart for God or His purposes. That he betrayed Jesus, Who once called Judas His friend, does not surprise me in the least.  It was not the money that Judas wanted.  He wanted to be one of the victorious in a battle against the Romans.  He believed Jesus was the leader that God had appointed to do it.  When it finally sank in that Jesus did not come for that purpose, Judas was disgusted and angry and only wanted revenge.  He was the son of perdition - that is anathama in God's eyes.  Yes, in the end he was sorry and perhaps had some guilt over what he had done, but it was not repentence that Judas sought, but perhaps pity for himself what he had wanted and lost.
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