DISCUSSION FORUMS
MAIN MENU
Home
Help
Advanced Search
Recent Posts
Site Statistics
Who's Online
Forum Rules
Bible Resources
• Bible Study Aids
• Bible Devotionals
• Audio Sermons
Community
• ChristiansUnite Blogs
• Christian Forums
Web Search
• Christian Family Sites
• Top Christian Sites
Family Life
• Christian Finance
• ChristiansUnite KIDS
Read
• Christian News
• Christian Columns
• Christian Song Lyrics
• Christian Mailing Lists
Connect
• Christian Singles
• Christian Classifieds
Graphics
• Free Christian Clipart
• Christian Wallpaper
Fun Stuff
• Clean Christian Jokes
• Bible Trivia Quiz
• Online Video Games
• Bible Crosswords
Webmasters
• Christian Guestbooks
• Banner Exchange
• Dynamic Content

Subscribe to our Free Newsletter.
Enter your email address:

ChristiansUnite
Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
November 26, 2024, 11:26:39 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
Our Lord Jesus Christ loves you.
287029 Posts in 27572 Topics by 3790 Members
Latest Member: Goodwin
* Home Help Search Login Register
  Show Posts
Pages: [1]
1  Theology / General Theology / Re:Hyper deception, in the visible church... on: May 08, 2003, 03:50:59 PM
Petro,

Man indeed has no excuse and ALL know of the true God.  Read Romans 1:18f states this plainly.  We also know from Romans that the Word is and has been preached to all creatures under heaven.

Romans 10:
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
        "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,[8]
        Who bring glad tidings of good things!"[9]
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?"[10] 17So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

        "Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
        And their words to the ends of the world."[11]

Now if Graham is teaching that man can come to Christ through paganism or false religion that would be heresy.  I believe Graham to be a false teacher because of many other teachings that are contrary to the doctrine of Christ and you can read our report on this at http://www.atruechurch.info

May God save you from the deceit of this world.
2  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 15, 2003, 04:56:18 PM
pt two
David's words are not idle. David knew the Lord could incline his heart to do evil and "to practice wicked works." In fact, even though David prayed this, the Lord on at least one occasion did incline his heart to do evil.

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

2 Samuel 24:10-17 records that David sinned by giving this order. David indeed sinned. Who caused David to sin? The Lord "moved David" (see also 1 Chronicles 21:1 for Satan's involvement).

Similarly, Peter writes,

Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. (1 Peter 2:7-8)

They were appointed to sin (i.e. disobedience to the word). Appointed by whom? They were appointed by God (Romans 11:36). In fact, this is the case for all mankind before salvation. God "has committed them all to disobedience" (Romans 11:32), and "the Scripture has confined all under sin" (Galatians 3:22).
The Word says, "the wicked are estranged from the womb" (Psalm 58:3). Who has created them that way? Is it not the Lord (Colossians 1:16)? Yes, it is. Even though Scripture says, "that God made man upright" (Ecclesiastes 7:29), it also says,

The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. (Proverbs 16:4)

So, when it comes to free will, there is no free will apart from God causing the decision to either accept or reject Him. As it is written,

O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps. (Jeremiah 10:23; see also Proverbs 16:9)

A man's steps are of the Lord; how then can a man understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)

He fashions their hearts individually; (Psalm 33:15; see also Jeremiah 17:9; Isaiah 26:12)

All things are of Him through Him and to Him (Romans 11:36). Therefore, this being understood, then there is free will under this canopy of God's control. His ways are past finding out (Romans 11:33), and this is one of His ways that is manifestly past finding out!

God deals with man as if he did have free will, and he does (Exodus 35:29: 36:3; Leviticus 1:3; 19:5; 22:19, 29; Psalm 119:108), that is, with the above truth still standing. God rightly holds man responsible for his actions.

Do not be deceived. God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (Galatians 6:7-8)

The judgment of God will be according to each one's work - "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation" (John 5:29). People do indeed choose good (e.g. Joshua 24:22; Psalm 119:30; Isaiah 7:15-16; Luke 10:42) and evil (e.g. Judges 5:8; 10:14; Proverbs 1:29; Isaiah 56:4; 66:3), and the Lord will judge them accordingly (Romans 2:6-16).

Ecclesiastes 9:11 says,

The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to men of understanding, nor favor to men of skill; but time and chance happen to them all.

Given different circumstances, there are people who would have chosen good rather than evil, and would have gone to heaven, rather than hell, because the influences in their lives would have encouraged them toward good rather than evil (e.g. 1 Corinthians 15:33). In other words, given a different time, or a different chance (set of circumstances), they would have chosen differently, and the result of this choosing would have eternal consequences.

For example, the Lord told Jeremiah concerning the false prophets of his day,

I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran. I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in My counsel, and had caused My people to hear My words, then they would have turned them from their evil way and from the evil of their doings. (Jeremiah 23:21-22)

The Lord tells Jeremiah a profound truth. If the prophets had spoken the truth, rather than lies, the people would have repented and not perished! But, instead, the prophets tried to make the people forget His name (Jeremiah 23:27), and it worked; and the people perished (Jeremiah 27:9-10).

For another example, read Luke 10:13.

Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

The people of Tyre and Sidon would have repented, had they had the same circumstances (mighty works) Chorazin and Bethsaida had. But, the Lord didn’t give them such a privilege, and they perished.

Knowing that certain circumstances can cause people to either accept or reject God, Jesus spoke in parables to ensure people would not accept Him. Jesus said to His disciples,

To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that "Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them." (Mark 4:11-12)

Jesus lets his disciples know why he speaks to the people in parables, and the reason he gives is astounding! It is to prevent people from understanding His message and being saved ("lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them").

In another place we read that God made it impossible for people to accept Him. John 12:37-40 displays no free will, but rather, the exact opposite, a locked will incapable of faith, i.e. accepting God.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them."

The Lord made it so that these people could not believe. In other words, it was impossible for them to believe. And how did He do this? He blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts. And Why? To make sure they did not understand, repent ("turn"), and receive forgiveness ("heal them"). To make sure they did not get saved!
This way of God is certainly unsearchable (Romans 11:33). He "desires all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4), and "has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all" (Romans 11:32), but He acts in ways that make sure people do not get saved! Deuteronomy beautifully illustrates this. In Deuteronomy 5:29 the Lord says,

Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!

The Lord clearly desires that they would have "a heart in them that they would fear" Him. Yet, Moses later points out that God did not give them "such a heart" so they could.

Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. (Deuteronomy 29:4)

So, to that very day, God had not given them the very thing they needed in order for them to do what He longed for.

Similarly, God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), and desires that they do (1 Timothy 2:4), yet they cannot repent unless God grants them repentance (2 Timothy 2:26; Romans 11:36); and this He only grants to a few (Matthew 7:13-14; Romans 9:27-29; 11:5).

So, in conclusion, it is evident, that Scripture teaches total depravity, free will, and no free will. Arminians are in error when they reject the absolute control that God has over His creation; that is, that all things are of Him through Him and to Him (Romans 11:36). Nothing happens but by God causing it to happen (e.g. Psalm 104; Proverbs 16:33), and this includes sin (e.g. Romans 1:28-31). Therefore, when Arminians maintain that God is not the cause of sin, and that man has the capability of either accepting or rejecting God apart from God causing the acceptance or rejection (Jeremiah 10:23; Romans 11:36), then they describe a god not of the Bible and a gospel not of holy writ.
for the rest of the article you can visit our web site.

al
3  Theology / General Theology / Re:Calvinism--TULIP on: April 15, 2003, 04:55:10 PM
Calvinism & Arminianism,
Neither Are In The Truth
July 2001

Calvinism is named after the French man John Calvin (1509-1564), and Arminianism is named after the Dutch man James (or Jacob) Arminius (1560-1609). There may be varying forms of Calvinism and Arminianism, and the differences between these two camps can become quite involved, depending on the advocates, but there are basically five points in which these systems of thought do not agree. Following the common Calvinistic acrostic "TULIP," the first point of contention is:


I. Total Depravity (or Free Will)
Calvinists contend,


. . . that man's natural state is a state of total depravity and therefore, there [is] a total inability on the part of man to gain, or contribute to, his own salvation. (The Five Points Of Calvinism, by W. J. Seaton, second printing, 1972, The Banner Of Truth Trust)


The classic Arminian position on this would concur with this statement (e.g. The Works of James Arminius, Vol. II, p. 192, VII), but would add that God, through his prevenient grace, has also given man the free will to choose to turn to God. Dr. Chris Jakway argues this from an Arminian perspective on the tape, Scriptural Response To Calvinism.


In book two, three five [of the Institutes of the Christian Religion], Calvin says, "Yet, so depraved in his nature that he can be moved or impelled only to evil." So Calvin says we can only do evil. Again, making it very clear, God has not enabled us with the free will to accept or reject him.


Contemporary Calvinists say the same thing often times. Dewayne Spencer in a book called TULIP makes this statement. "Point one, the Arminian says that man's will is free to choose either the word of God or the word of Satan. The Calvinist's response: that unregenerate man is in absolute bondage to Satan" (as if we don't believe that, as if we don't believe sinful by nature) "and wholly incapable of exercising free will to trust in Christ."

So the first thing we need to see from Scripture is that God has indeed enabled us, through this prevenient grace, to have free will. (side 1, from Evangelical Outreach, Box 265, Washington, PA 15301; www.evangelicaloutreach.org)


The Calvinist's idea of total depravity excludes the idea of God giving men the free will to accept or reject Him. The Arminian's idea of total depravity includes this free will choice and ability, understanding that it exists only by the grace of God. Now, what does the Lord say?


The Word teaches that it is indeed true that man, in his lost state, is totally depraved. That is, that he is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-3), does evil continually (Genesis 6:5, "only"; Psalm 53:1-3; Romans 3:10-18), and is unable to do good on his own, especially any good that would lead to his salvation (Psalm 58:3; Jeremiah 13:23; Isaiah 64:5:b; Romans 11:36). But, when someone is saved, this lost state is broken, and they have the freedom to live in righteousness, by the power of God (Romans 6:2, 7, 14, 17-18, 20, 22; Ephesians 2:8-10).


Yet, it should also be noted for clarity, that a lost man could, if and when God so determined (Psalm 16:2; Romans 11:36), perform that which is truly good, yet the man may never come to salvation. For example, Balaam, who was a false prophet in his lost state (2 Peter 2:15-16; Numbers 25:1-3; 31:16), performed that which is truly good. He spoke, without compromise, even in the face of opposition, the unadulterated word of God (Numbers 23:5-13). "God would not listen to Balaam, but the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing" (Deuteronomy 23:5), and caused Balaam to do truly good (Romans 11:36).
Jehu is another example of a lost man doing good. Read 2 Kings 9:1-10:28 and you will see Jehu's "zeal for the Lord" (2 Kings 9:25-26; 36-37; 10:9-10; 10:16). At the end of this zeal, 2 Kings records,

However Jehu did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who had made Israel sin, that is, from the golden calves that were at Bethel and Dan. And the Lord said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in doing what is right in My sight, and have done to the house of Ahab all that was in My heart, your sons shall sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation." But Jehu took no heed to walk in the law of the Lord God of Israel with all his heart; for he did not depart from the sins of Jeroboam, who had made Israel sin. (2 Kings 10:29-31)

The Lord says Jehu did "well in doing what is right in My sight." This is not the same perspective as, "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Jehu did "all that was in [God's] heart" and what was right, so much so, that the Lord blesses him saying, "your sons shall sit on the throne of Israel to the fourth generation." Moreover, we know Jehu did all this in yet a lost state, because verse 29 above says, "Jehu did not turn away from the sins of Jeroboam . . . from the golden calves that were at Bethel and Dan." Jehu did good, truly good, but was still lost. This righteousness which he performed gave him nothing in regards to salvation.

Now, when it comes to free will, Scripture does teach that there is such a thing as free will (e.g. Exodus 35:29: 36:3; Leviticus 1:3; 19:5; 22:19, 29; Psalm 119:108). But, free will is under the same umbrella as the rest of the entire creation, that is, the umbrella of Romans 11:36.

For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Nothing happens apart from God causing it to happen (Isaiah 45:7; Lamentations 3:37-38; Amos 3:6). In fact, this is where Arminians (and some Calvinists) typically have trouble. They stumble over the reality of God being the cause of sin. Randolph Foster (an Arminian, 1820-1903) in objection to "God decreed whatsoever comes to pass" argues,

And, first, I object: it renders the conclusion inevitable that God is the author of sin. I employ the term author in the sense of originator or cause. (Objections to Calvinism as it is, p. 23, copyright 1998, Schmul Publishing Co., Salem, Ohio)

Foster objects to God being the cause of sin. If all things are "of Him through Him and to Him" (Romans 11:36), then indeed, God, who is nonetheless holy and righteous in all His ways (Psalm 99:3, 5, 9; 145:17), is the cause of all things, even sin. In fact, God Himself declares,

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:37-38, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

Some may argue against the KJV translation of these verses, but the translation is legitimate. The Hebrew words translated "evil" (ra, haraot, raah) can all be translated this way, as the KJV illustrates (note also the same Hebrew root in Exodus 32:12-14; Psalm 78:49; Jeremiah 18:8-11; 24:3, 8; 36:3; Ezekiel 6:10; and Micah 1:12 in the KJV). But, not to "strive about words" (2 Timothy 2:14), what does Isaiah ask?

O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, and hardened our heart from Your fear? (Isaiah 63:17; see also 2 Samuel 12:11-12; Psalm 105:25)

Obviously, Isaiah, the prophet of God, the holy man of God who was moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21), believed that God caused the Israelites to sin ("You made us stray from Your ways"). Likewise, David prays,

Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, to practice wicked works with men who work iniquity; and do not let me eat of their delicacies. (Psalm 141:4)
Pages: [1]



More From ChristiansUnite...    About Us | Privacy Policy | | ChristiansUnite.com Site Map | Statement of Beliefs



Copyright © 1999-2025 ChristiansUnite.com. All rights reserved.
Please send your questions, comments, or bug reports to the

Powered by SMF 1.1 RC2 | SMF © 2001-2005, Lewis Media