[The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2).]

The reason that I asked is because at first glance your quote looked like it was going to support free will in the libertarian sense, but in examining a little closer, barring a few points made that were obscure enough that I really couldn't say whether I disagreed or not, for the most part, that quote doesn't really teach anything different than what I've been saying, at least not to the best of my understanding.

Let me explain.

People of the reformed theology, mainly those you would call Calvinists, use the term "free will" also, but we would not be as liberal in our definition as some may be. We hold true to scripture. The reason that i'm telling you this is when I speak to other people who I know have a different definition of "free will" than what I believe that scripture teaches, I go out of my way not to use the term "free will" because I know that a faulty definition will be assumed into the meaning. You may have found a link that uses the term "free will", but I believe that it is probably assumed in the writers eyes, based on what he wrote, that he is not speaking of a libertarian free will.

I say this because of many things that the writer said.

The Bible says that the unregenerate are energized by Satan (Eph 2:2) and that God works in the regenerate (Phil 2:2). Yet the individual is not conscious of any necessity being imposed upon him. Therefore human choice of both good and evil originates within the person's own volition or will; it is free in the sense that he is conscious only of his own freedom of action. We are never as uninfluenced as we think.
Much perplexity remains as to the precise way that the individual's part and God's part in salvation relate. Yet it is clear that God's influence on the unsaved must be exercised if they are ever going to turn to Him in saving faith (John 6:44; Rom 3:23-26; Eph 2:8-9).

Barring what was sandwiched in the middle that I had a hard time determining what exactly the writer meant (since there was no scripture given for the point being made), I agree with the rest of it that I put in bold print.

Also this...

WHAT IS “GRACIOUS ELECTION”?
Gracious election is the sovereign act of God by which from all eternity He graciously chose in Christ Jesus for Himself, and on account of no foreseen merit, certain sinful ones to be the recipients of His special saving grace (John 1:11-13; 15:16; Acts 13:48; Rom 9:20; Eph 1:4; II Thess 2:14).


Dave

Hi Kelly.

Which part of your quote, if any, do you think that I would disagree with? Or do you think it's in line with what i've been saying?

In Christ

Dave

 

You are missing the critical point. 'Elohiym desires what is genuine, not what is hollow. Specifically, 'Elohiym seeks genuine love (John 14:21, John 16:27, Matthew 10:37, Matthew 22:34-40, etc.) and genuine worship (John 4:23) from people. However, if 'Elohiym predestines people to do these things, then 'Elohiym would receive hollow, unreal versions of these things, for nothing would exist but puppeteered motions.

I don't believe it is hollow. I think it would be wrong to assume that it is. Do you take God at His Word?

1 Timothy 1:8-9 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and Grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, He saved us. Paul says to share with him in the sufferings for the Gospel according...to the power of God.

Eph. 1:4 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Genesis 20:6 And God said to him in a dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart. For I also withheld you from sinning against Me; therefore I did not let you touch her.(think about this one for a minute)

Exodus 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

Psalm 33:10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect. 11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Lucky, what people are doing is taking one of the great truths of God's Word that has offered Great comfort to Christians since the Gospel began to be preached and traded it in for a philosophy that has nothing to do with God's Word. This Freedom of mans will, as you define it, is nowhere taught in scripture. To use that philosophy as a starting point and as some kind of grid for all other doctrines to be tested by, and if they fail this test they are rejected, even when the Bible speaks so clearly on God's sovereignty over all He created, is a mistake.

When a tragedy happens in my life I take comfort in knowing that God is in control. Start out with Biblical truths and build from them, comparing scripture with scripture, because God's Word never lies.

Isaiah 45:7 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

Isaiah 46:10 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Gotta Go, have fun in your time with your wife Lucky,

Dave

Luckystrike wrote:
 

Thanks for the reply, Dave. However, my wife is off work for the next three days, so I will spend this time with her. I will have to catch up later.

In the meantime, take care.

No problem, I have some catching up to do anyways.

Kelly wrote:

Hey, how did I end up back in this? You two were doing very well on your own! lol

Bro, I don't consider my life suffering. I think I would worry if it was all grand and dandy, because I was either missing something or completely dead!  On the contrary my life, with God in control is very blessed. As long as I have Jesus in my life, there is no suffering here. I would be suffering without Him!

  Now i'm confused. Wait...I was replying to your last thread about faith. A few posts before that I thought that you claimed to believe that faith was a gift from God, but in your last post you seemed to be backtracking a bit "No, faith alone is not a gift, but a choice for us to either have or to have not. However, it becomes a gift when we have faith in our Father for, we then receive all His gifts that come free once we become His faithful child.
applying some "I came to faith on my own, but then thanked God afterward" reasoning. That's all. Nothing to do with suffering.

I'm on a public computer so I'm limited on time most of the time. What I usually do is print out the post so I can answer the questions at home and then just type them in later. But printing out the posts on this forum has become very difficult for some reason, but I did find a way around it, it just took a while to figure it out.

Peace

Dave

[23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,]

This reply is a strawman argument. You are presupposing that Compatibilist Predestination is a valid "mystery." However, you have not explained why this paradox is a valid mystery, as opposed to erroneous illogical logic.

You were implying that because you couldn't reason out the fact that God is completely sovereign and man can, and does make a responsible choice, even though I have given scriptural evidence, and can give more, that it must be false because you could reason it out. My point was simply that you would need to reject the trinity based on those same standards for determining truth. These things are mysteries because we cannot fully understand through reason, but we accept them because scripture clearly teaches both. They are not mysteries because they cannot be found in scripture, as your comment seems to suggest.

To accept the mystery of the trinity because scripture clearly teaches it, even when we can't understand how it all fits together, and then at the same time reject the clear scripture that teaches that God is completely sovereign, that nothing happens by chance, because you cannot reconcile it with mans responsible choice, which the Bible also clearly teaches leads me to ask...Why use different standards for determining the truth when confronted with God's sovereignty?

And where does Epeshians 1:11 and Romans 8:28 mention Total Predestination? For instance, how do you know that these versese describe Total Predestination, as opposed to the divine guidance of all earthly situations? The highlighted phraseology does not evidence Total Predestination, unless one appeals to semantical presuppositions inserted into the text.

It doesn't, that is your straw man that you are trying to pin on me because you don't understand. I'll write more on this in my answer to your next question.

Dave, you are denying the obvious with semantical gameplay. If you believe that 'Elohiym pre-ordains, or causes, absolutely all things, then you advocate Total Predestination.

What you are accusing me of teaching is not total predestination, but it's called double predestination. No I don't teach that either. God ordains everything, predestination is not the same as ordain. I don't recall ever reading in God's Word that anyone was ever predestined for hell. So let's be careful not to put words into God's mouth. We were all destined for hell based on our own merits, Him, having mercy on some to display His Glory (and other reasons) chose/predestined those He foreknew/foreloved. It had nothing to do with anything that we did. See the thread on Roman 8:29 in this same forum.

John 16:7 [NIV]
I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

"Gave them to [Christ Jesus]" under what context? Pre-ordained salvation or delegated authority?

Context...John 17:2-3 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Since this passage utilizes a potter-clay analogy, one must interpret this passage accordingly....

Therefore, the potter-clay analogy allows for free will.

You are reading into the passage something that is not there. The potter analogy is not speaking of libertarian free will. Paul is arguing that it is irrational and far more arrogant for men to question God's choice of certain sinners to salvation than it would be for a pc. of pottery to question the purposes of the Potter.

Now, Romans 9:22 says "prepared for destruction" under what context? Eternal

Contrast with vs. 23 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

My personal faith is a gift from 'Elohiym? I disagree. I assume that you are referencing the Calvinistic interpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2 [NIV]
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

"Gift of God" under what context? Faith is a gift from 'Elohiym or salvation through faith is a gift from 'Elohiym?

Context...Eph. 2:8 "you have been saved" "through faith" that comes to us "by grace". "not from yourselves", "not by works" meaning not from the flesh, but from Grace, i.e. a gift.

This is for you to Kelly.

Philippians 1:29 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Also see Romans 12:3, and Eph. 6:23. We are saved by a faith that is gifted to us by grace. Are faith continues by grace

I'll try to catch up tomorrow if I haven't already answered your latest post in answering todays questions.

Peace

Dave

This quotation is a self-contradictory non-answer. The claim that irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym can coincide with the individual's will begs the question, for irresistible divine coercion is irresistible divine coercion. And irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym precludes the existence of individual will, otherwise a paradox within the chain of causation results.

I dealt with this already.

]Your replies are self-contradicting. Does 'Elohiym pre-ordain all of our "choices," or simply our good "choices"?

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I will talk more about this later. Yes, God does ordain these things.

Proverbs 20:24 (NASB for clarity) 24 Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?

Proverbs 21:1 1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Job 14:5 5 ( speaking of “Man who is born of woman" vs.1 ) Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You;  You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.

Lamentations 3:37 37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass, When the Lord has not commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That woe and well-being proceed?

I'll stop here to conserve space.

Are you referencing the doctrine of Total Depravity? If so, then I ask:

Did Christ Jesus inherit a hereditary "depraved nature" from Mary ...Hebrews 2:14, 17, Hebrews 4:15?

First your question assumes things that simply are not true, and also using Jesus as a comparison to what unregenerate man has to deal with is not a good idea either. There are so many places we could take this, so i'll just start shooting from the hip and hope something clicks for you.

Yes, the verses you quoted and context say that Jesus took on the human nature, meaning the nature of all men, but does this mean he took on a sinful nature? The context says that the temptations that Jesus faced were the same as believers face, which is very different than an unregenerate heart. The temptations, as in His temptation by Satan in the Desert for forty days, didn't begin until after He was filled with the Spirit. So using this scripture as somehow proving something that what an unregenerate man can or cannot do is useless. But the problems don't end there. Depravity/spiritual blindness is not a nature but a condition that results from our "sinful nature". Spiritual blindness is judicially inflicted (John 12:40, Matthew 13:13). Spiritual blindness is the result of sin. We are all sinners and as a result we all knew spiritual blindness (Romans 3:10-18, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8). But Jesus never knew sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Did Jesus face the temptations that result from sin, even the temptations that a sinful believer would face? Jesus didn't need a sacrifice for himself, but we as man do (Hebrews 7:27).  Jesus is fully God, and was fully man at the same time, we are not. Jesus did not limit Himself in His humanity, but veiled His reincarnate Glory. In other words, Taking on human nature was not a subtraction, but an addition to His being fully God. If He had ceased being any of His Godly attributes He would have ceased being God. So making a comparison to sinful unregenerate man because because Jesus suffered temptations that believers have is a bad comparison for many reasons. Even within the context, comparing Jesus, who was the creator of the household of faith to Moses, who was only part of God's household is a mistake. Isn't this the whole point of Hebrews, That Jesus is God and is superior to all the prophets, angels, types etc.?

It would be a mistake to say that Christ was merely able not to sin. Christ was not able to sin. The testing Proved His sinlessness and made Him a sympathizing high priest. The reality of testing does not lie in the moral nature of the one tested and the possibility of sympathizing does not depend on the one to one correspondence in the problems faced. 

I'll be back.

Hey all,

Lucky,

This quotation is a self-contradictory non-answer. The claim that irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym can coincide with the individual's will begs the question, for irresistible divine coercion is irresistible divine coercion. And irresistible coercion by 'Elohiym precludes the existence of individual will, otherwise a paradox within the chain of causation results.

God's Words is not only unapologetic, but also relentless in teaching God's complete sovereignty over all He created, every rain drop that falls, every lot that is drawn, every sparrow that falls, that none of these things happen contrary to His decree, but because he ordains them to happen. His word also teaches us, that man makes responsible choices and will be held accountable for them. The Bible also teaches both of these truths in the same breath more than a few times.

Who wrote the book of Romans? Was it Paul? Or was it God? If God coerced Paul to write exactly as He wanted, then how can Paul honestly say that he is writing this letter? Is Paul lying? If I tell you that both wrote the book of Romans, that it was 100% Paul, and 100% God, will you then say that this is "is a self-contradictory non-answer"?

When you answer this question, you will see the point being made in the first. We need to get rid of the idea that for man to make a responsible choice, that God must forfeit some of His sovereignty. This simply isn't Biblical and is nowhere taught in scripture.

Lucky, I wish that I had all day, because I would like to answer your whole post now in great detail, but time will not allow anymore today. See ya tomorrow, Lord willing.

Peace

Dave

ravenloche

Nest question: is there one name that will entail, and encompass, the name of the whole godhead?

I think that Asaph dealt with this question. BTW Asaph, very interesting read.

I was taught a while back something interesting, but I am unable to confirm it. I was told that the reason that it was taught to have a water baptisms in Jesus' name only in some places in the Bible, while Jesus Himself said to do it in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, was because for the Jew the Father and The Holy Spirit were not a problem. This was readily accepted and was common, but it was the public profession of the Son, Jesus, that would bring death, disbandment, etc. So the public profession of the Son by baptism was the only profession that the Jew needed to make to serve the purpose of the public profession. I think that it's safe to say, and i'm sure you would agree that this was not some magical saying as in "open says me", but the importance of the baptism was a public profession and an outward expression of an inward truth, the Spirtual baptism by Jesus with the Holy Spirit into His Body that every believer receives at the first moment of believing in faith.

When we get outside of the Jewish believers and their OT background, namely the gentiles, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit was the correct way since they had no background that already accepted the Father and the Holy Spirit.

There's nothing really that would back me up on this theory in scripture, but it does make a lot of sense. Just a thought...

Take it for what it's worth.

Peace

Sorry i've been so short on time that I haven't had time to reply. Kelly, your whole post was a blessing. I can honestly say that you made my day. You go girl 

Hi Tina. 

Luckystrike, i'm out of time already. Sorry for the wait, but i'll need to try to get in here tomorrow. I'll see if I can print your post so I can go over it more thoroughly. Last time I tried to print something from this forum I only got the ads, but not the posts.

God Bless

Dave

I believe (and am sure someone will tell me if I am wrong) but, God's Will is something that we choose to follow or not. What God wants from us is not always the path that we choose, if we are not faithful to His guidance. That is where FREE WILL comes in. Yes, God has a plan for all of us. But, even in the case of Joseph, that plan came to light because Joseph had faith. FAITH is the key word there in God's plan working for the good of all of us.

I am thankful that even when we make the wrong choice, and still suffer the consequences, that God will work it out to our good. We would not choose to follow God's will if it were not for His mercy by grace.

Romans 12:3 3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Do you recognize your faith as a gift from God?  Are you thankful to Him for the belief you have?  Even our repentance and perseverance are gifts from God. All these things are a result of His grace (Eph 2:8-10), and when it is not sourced in His Grace, it comes from the flesh. God calls these works from the flesh filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). It is only of His Grace according to His mercy that we are saved (Titus 3:5).

Once we look to ourselves and trying to establish our own righteousness as if we have done something outside of His grace, we are giving evidence that we may be rejecting the one thing that can save us, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:3-4)

http://www.tpgh.org/FTGW.htm

Kelly, i'm sorry that you are going through so much suffering. Always keep your focus on the big picture, His eternal purpose, and the trials of your life will not overwelm you. This is something that I had to learn the hard way. In a world that likes it's standard pat answers, for someone who needed to know more, much of the watered down Gospel preaching was very frustrating for me. Here are a few things that helped me a great deal when I needed it most. I hope that they bless you as much as they have blessed me.

How God Uses Suffering--Part 1
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-83.htm

How God Uses Suffering--Part 2
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/47-84.htm

Personally, I don't think anyone should write a list of any good that they do. God keeps the list and for us to claim it in this manner you describe, it would only look like vanity in one's self, as well as "bragging". We are to do things in God's Name for His Glory and His Glory alone. Each of us has our own way of following the leads of our Father, in the way that Jesus tells us to do, and only has to account for those task with God.

I didn't really want a list, I guess I was making a point  . I think..., I hope that Joe understood that. A list with anything on it would be wrong, that was the point that I was trying to make. We give God all the glory because He actually deserves all of it. For without Him we could do nothing.

I do as God tells me to do. That is where FREE WILL comes in. I could choose to turn my back on someone that needs my help, or not tithe when I could spend the money or something else I think I need. I can ignore the pulling of the Holy Spirit and not pray. These are all MY CHOICE, for I accepted Jesus as my Savior--professing that with my lips and my heart. I know some that don't believe in God's calling and ignore what they should do because they would rather do what is pleasing to them. That is where CHOICE comes in. God's plan can only be followed if we follow the teachings that the Bible tells us to follow. God know us all before we were born, for He knitted us in our mother's womb. Yet, He gave us a choice on how we would fulfill His calling for our life. If we don't follow His plan, then it is up to us to reap what we sow upon Jesus' return.

Yes, we have a choice, but no one could make the right choice unless God moves first in their lives.

Salvation doesn't come from works alone. I know many that believe that, but salvation comes from professing and believing that Jesus is the Son of God and our Lord and Savior. Only through Him do we get to our Father. You can go out and hand out bagged lunches to homeless people, or help out a stranger that is in need-that is what we are supposed to do as Christians. However, if you still don't believe in Christ while doing these works, they mean nothing on judgment day. For, you have followed your own ways for your own glory--and not for the Glory of God, and in the Name of our Precious Lord, Jesus Christ.

We are saved by the righteousness of God, Jesus' imputed righteousness. The only way we can be imputed with His  righteousness is by faith, once we begin to use "works and faith" under the title of faith, we are not speaking of faith anymore. Works, whether good or bad, will always be a result of our salvation, or lack of, but never the cause. See Roman 10:3-4.

Also here http://s8.invisionfree.com/philippians3/index.php?showtopic=194

Gotta go, Joe, are you still with us?

Dave

So, in other words, we exercise the power of choice according to God's will?

I must refere back to the definition given earlier.

The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

By definition (ref.), a choice requires a minimum of two or more options, which may be acted upon. However, if 'Elohiym's will controls one's actions, then how can one exercise the power of choice? The word "choice" explicitly implies the existence of an option which is contrary to 'Elohiym's will, otherwise choice ceases to be choice. Otherwise, there is nothing but 'Elohiym's will, which renders all of his creations as puppets.

Again, we are not puppets, we are free to follow the desires of our hearts. But also keep in mind what was posted in the third and fourth post of this thread. Nobody has ever taken away the choice, but the ability to make the right choice is impossible unless God acts first.

This paradox is the real core issue. How can this illogical logic stand, without invalidating all human logic or dismissing this logical problem as a "mystery"?

But so is the Trinity, yet we accept it because God's Word clearly teaches it, even though we cannot reconsile this in our minds. God providencially governs all things. He works all things according to His will (Eph 1:11), all things work for the good of those who love Him (Romans 8:28), etc. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The 5-Point Calvinistic interpretation of 'Elohiym's justice does not harmonize with the Biblical model of justice. For instance, Scripture states that 'Elohiym does not desire the loss of any soul (Matthew 18:10-14),

I posted this in the "foreknew" thread.

"There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 45:7); thus, He hates it's consequences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desire."(JMSB)

yet 5-Point Calvinism, under the doctrine of Total Predestination, claims that 'Elohiym predestines certain souls for eternal damnation. Did 'Elohiym change their minds during John Calvin's lifetime?

Here is the scripture used to support the five points. Can you show me which ones led you to believe that Calvinism teaches these things..

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3562/tulip.html

So believers are "bonded" to the Trinity in the same manner as the Trinity is "bonded" together? When did we become 'El of 'Elohiym?

Let me try this another way. What work will you glorify yourself for doing without God? What desire do you have that is good that was not given to you by God. A simple list will do.

You are equivocating limited choice with predestined "choice."

"Predestined choice"??  I don't believe that i've ever used those words or even implied what I think you mean by them.

Free will is not an "all or nothing" capacity. To the contrary, free will choice is free will choice, even if exercised under circumstantial limitations

I think that was the point being made.

Out of time, later

Dave

The Hebrew term 'Elohiym references the incomprehensible uniplural Trinity. Each personage is individually God, yet all three personages are one God. However, ontologically describing God as a singular "he" implies Modalism or Oneness Theology, which is a theological error that disrespects the personages of the Trinity. Therefore, I use the term "'Elohiym," plus third-person plural pronouns, to honor the Trinitarian personages simultaneously.

Does this explanation help you?

I think I got it. 

Hold on a second. If all love comes from 'Elohiym, then 'Elohiym loves themselves through us, no? How does one's love for 'Elohiym possess any meaning, if one cannot love 'Elohiym under their own will alone? Is love not a relational reaction from the individual?

This could get very deep, very fast. LOL Why do we give Him all the glory? Because God is the source of anything good that comes from us for the Church. Sometime we need to look at the foundation of reasoning that our questions are built on. Your question seems to assume that if love comes from God that it would violate our will? I don't believe that it does based on the previous post given to Joe. It's difficult, if not impossible to work out in our minds, but to the best of my understanding, this is what scripture teaches. God's sovereignty is unaffected by how enslaved or free we may be. 

There is a lot of different ways that we could look at this. We know that the Son loves the Father, yet they are still One. Would this be self love? I believe that it would be if we understood God as the Oneness Pentecostals does, but the fact that we do have a Three Person Trinity would seem to overcome this. While all Three are "One", they are Each fully God and distinct from Eachother. So Jesus loving the Father would not be self love.

If we apply this same reasoning to the question that you posed......You have Christ living in you. Does the fact that you can now grow in your love for Jesus as a result of you now being "in Him" make it any less your love? Are you not still free to follow the disires of your heart?

Remember
""The compatibilist holds that every human action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I must take Jesus at His Word that 'we can do nothing [good] without Him' (John 15:5), and as Paul said, 'we receive everything from Him, why boast as is we haven't' (1 Corinthians 4:7).

Something to keep in mind. It's very easy to for all of us to begin our search for understanding on the foundation of our own faulty premice, as in "would a loving God do this?", or, "is it fair?". But we need to be careful in that many times these questions are grounded in our limited understanding and reasoning i.e. fallen assumptions, I think that it's important that we remind ourselves that God is just even if it doesn't all add up to us. Macarthur explanes it very well....

From Macarthur:
"As William Perkins said, many years ago, “We must not think that God does a thing because it’s good and right, but rather is the thing good and right because God wills it and works it.” God defines for us what is justice, because God is by nature just and righteous, and what He does reflects that nature. His own freewill and nothing else is behind His justice, so whatever He wills, is just, and it is just, because He wills it, not because it is just, and therefore He wills it. Now as we think about the justice of God being representative of His character and not subject to fallen assumptions, we begin to understand that God in the nature of His own sovereignty defines everything that He does, as not only just, but perfect. The Creator owes nothing to the creature, not even what He is graciously pleased to give. So God does exactly what God chooses to do . . . that is what it means to be God.

We could talk a little bit about the idea, of course that salvation is not a matter of justice . . . and aren’t we glad for that . . . but it is in a sense because Jesus Christ had to pay the just price for sin, in order that grace might be extended to us. But salvation, of course, is for all of us who are fallen sinners, deserving of nothing but eternal damnation—really a matter, not of justice, but of mercy and grace, which requires justice, but comes to us in the form of mercy and pure grace.

...

The idea that God does what He wants, and that what He does is true and right because He does it, is behind, of course, the understanding of everything in the Scripture and certainly it is behind the doctrine of election. But we cannot isolate the doctrine of election, from election of the church, in regard to us from every other thing that God chooses to do. Because in the whole, large picture, God elects everything that He does. Everything that God does, He does because He chooses to do it and His choices are free from any influence outside Himself. So the doctrine of election fits into this broader comprehension of a sovereign God, by His own nature, doing whatever He chooses to do. That is the broadest perspective."

there is a lot of different ways we could have looked at your question, I know what I have given is very far from being thorough, I hope it served it's purpose though. Hopefully, my post wasn't so scatter brained that nobody but me will be able to understand it. Let me know if you have anymore questions or would like to expand more on your first question.

Peace

Hey Joe

Sorry it took so long to reply.

Do they believe all 5 points of the TULIP? Between "unconditional election" and "irresistable grace," Calvinism has God deciding who will be saved and who won't be saved. If God does the deciding, then we don't.

I'll try to answer this question with the answer to the next question.

Let me explain my beliefs. I believe that the decision to accept or reject Jesus is man's only part in salvation. As the Scriptures say, "no one seeks God" and "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." Man does nothing to initiate salvation. Jesus draws all men unto Himself. The Holy Spirit convicts man of his sin and makes plain our need for a Saviour. The natural man would never even have any concept of God were it not for the Holy Spirit doing His awesome work within the hearts of man. No one seeks God on their own. The only reason an unbeliever ever darkens the doorway of the church is because the Holy Spirit is working in His life and Jesus is drawing the unbeliever unto Himself. The Holy Spirit enlightens the heart and soul of the unbeliever and it is the unbeliever's choice to accept or reject the light he has been shown, and opting to not choose right now is making a choice to reject for now.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I believe that man takes part in much of His salvation. It is a fixed end in God's eyes, but we are to play a part in it. God chose for us to take part in it. While Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God, well..., look at some of the example that I gave in my first few posts...Keep in mind that God's sovereignty is unaffected no matter how free or enslaved a man might be. As we can see in Philippians 2:12-13 quoted below, this relationship between God's sovereignty and mans will (compatablism) applies to salvation as well. God's sovereignty and mans will, compatible...

Dave wrote:

You probably acknowledge compatibilism without even realizing it. Before you eat dinner, you give thanks to our Lord for it, right? Should we sit at the table waiting for dinner to miraculously appear because God said not to worry about tomorrow? No, We go out and do what we need to do to put dinner on the table, but we still thank God for it. Even though He allows us to be part of His sovereign plan, He is the cause for it.

Here is more examples of compatibilism with the regenerate heart that is recorded in scripture. The Bible tells us that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling Philippians 2:12-13, but does this make it any less through, by and from God?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude shows the same...

Jude 20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 But others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

Even with the un-regenerate heart, i've provided Biblical examples...

So you ask, how can God be completely Sovereign and man be held completely responsible? Here are two very clear biblical examples.

Joseph speaking to his brothers who sold him into slavery said;

Gen. 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. (also Gen. 45:4-8)

"One sinful action is in view. Josephs brothers meant it for evil. But in direct parallel, God meant the same action for good. Due to the intention of the hearts of Josephs brothers, the action in the human realm was evil. The very same action as part of God's eternal decree was meant for good, for by it God brought about His purpose and plan. One action, two intentions, compatible in all things. Josephs brothers were accountable for their intentions; God is glorified for His."(White)

Acts 4:27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.

"One action , the great sacrifice of the son of God, is in view. Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the Jews were all gathered together against Jesus. Their actions were obviously sinful. Their intentions were evil. Yet, the Word of God is clear: They did what they did because God's hand and purpose predestined it to take place. Were they accountable for their intentions and desires? Of course. But was the certainty of the Cross and the sacrifice ever dependent upon man's will? Never. It happened according to the predestined plan of God and is therefore completely to His honor and glory. One action, part of the divine decree, sinful on the part of the intentions of the men involved, and yet fully in harmony with the holy purpose of God, to His glory and His praise. Man's will, God's sovereign decree, compatible with one another. This is the biblical teaching." (White)

So you may ask, how is it possible that God can be completely sovereign and man is still free enough to chose according to the desires of his heart? I don't know. I do know that some people seek to solve this problem by saying that God simply looked into the future to see what choice man would make concerning all things, even salvation, and then decreed them to happen. Based on what I have read and studied in God's Word, this is nowhere taught in scripture and actuall goes way beyond what the Bible teaches, in fact, it contradicts the Bibles clear teaching that God does decree and ordain these things to happen according to His will and His purpose, not because He could see what what man would do by looking into the future.

Where you said "Jesus draws all men unto Himself." I don't recall seeing this in scripture. I could be wrong, but i'll assume that you were referring to John 6:44?

I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask if you still have questions are are not clear on my answers to you.

Lucky strike, I'm going to need to get to you tomorrow.

Dave

Thanks for the reply Keven. Being a Biblicist, you can't go wrong with that. Sometimes the terms Calvinism/Arminianism just get in the way, but they are helpful in giving a basic understanding of where one is coming from theologically.

Does God sovereignly chosing to give man the opportunity to accept His calling make God any smaller?

No, not at all. But I probably would think of the word "opportunity" differently than you do. Everyone has the opportunity, it's just that no one is capable of making the right choice without God making the first move. When Christ died on the cross, I don't believe that He simply made salvation a possibility, I believe that there was actual sin nailed to the cross. And we know that election is "unto salvation", with much emphasis put on the word "unto". All that the Father Gives to Him...

If you take a look at the thread called (going by memory) "God's sovereignty and mans will" you can see that some of these thing are being discussed. For me, it is confusing at times and many times I often set studies aside until I regain my strength and determination. I've found over time that confronting these tough questions can be also be very rewarding. There is a place for knowing that we must accept God at His Word even when we cannot rationalize some of these things in our minds, but should this stop our search for the answer? Maybe it's arrogant of me to think this way, but I always approach scripture knowing that God can reveal something to me that He has never revealed to any man at any time. There's nothing special about me and I don't deserve to know more than others, but He can and will use me in this way. Then I can share it with everyone. So even if it's the "ultimate question" that has been debated for centuries, I still have no problem seeking the answer.

God Bless you Keven

In Christ Jesus

Dave