I guess I'll break the trend and say that my church-body DOES baptize infants.  We're against the whole "choice" thing.  We don't believe that natural man is capable of choosing salvation by himself, and baptism reflects this.  Baptism is not something that we're doing for God, it's something God is doing TO us.  Infant baptism shows that we do not depend on ourselves for salvation, that is a act completed soley by God.  I'm not saying that baptism is the point at which you're saved, but we consider it a "sacrament," meaning it's more than just the symbol that many protestant churches say it is.  And...baptism from a font is just as legitimate and effective as baptism by immerision.  I've never seen a baptism by immersion, actually.  Maybe I should.  Do churches do immersion just because it's an early church tradition?  If that's the case, they better start practicing closed communion!

Whether or not it's ok to be "rich" or not is one thing, but the fact of the matter is that Joel is pretty much just lying.  He also takes verses out of context a lot.  I know, I get his daily devos by email.  Observe:

Today's Scripture

"...for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith." (I John 5:4)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

"As a child of God, you have the power of faith within you to overcome the world. That includes everything in the world, and everything the world brings your way! The Bible says that faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). As you hear the Word of God and store it in your heart, your faith in God grows stronger.

When the enemy tries to attack you through sickness, fear, worry, or financial mishaps, just use your faith by declaring the Word of God. Find scriptures to speak over your problem or whatever you are facing. Declare that perfect love casts out all fear! Declare that God shall supply all your needs! Declare that because you are born of God, you have faith to overcome the world!"

--------------------------------------------

See, when I read that verse, I immediately thought it hard spiritual/eternal life implications.  But Joel takes it the other way, to mean we'll overcome all of our problems in this life, if we just have "enough faith."  How much is enough, Joel?

Here's another:

Today's Scripture

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb." (Psalm 139:13)

Today's Word from Joel and Victoria

"You are a person of destiny! God chose you to be here before the foundation of the world. God knew you before you were ever formed in your mother's womb. God made you with a purpose and you are a vital part of His divine plan.

You may not realize it right now, but you have God-given dreams and desires inside of you. The dream starts like a little flame, and throughout life you have to constantly add fuel to the fire to help it grow. As you continue to fellowship with Him and with fellow believers, God will reveal Himself to you in ways you never thought possible. He will reveal the dreams in your heart, and bring them to pass!

As you continue to seek the Lord and His wonderful plan for your life, you will discover victory in every area–you will discover the champion in you!"

---------------------------------------------

Here he is assuming that every desire that dwells within us is from God.  Ever heard of the devil, buddy?  I'm pretty sure that most of my desires are sinful.  In fact, I'm pretty sure that not much of what is in me is good, whatsoever.  But Joel just wants us to feel good about ourselves. 

There's a lot more where those came from...

Hi folks.  I've found that this is a nice place to talk theology (if you keep your nose clean, which I must admit I can have trouble with sometimes).  Anyway, I've done a bit of reading around here, and I've come to appreciate the diversity in views on different topics, etc...

So here's something I've been discussing with friends lately:  Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel.  Is the concept of "if you do good, God'll do good to you (with financial wealth, happiness, health, etc...)" a sound theological doctrine?  Lately I've been watching a lot of his sermons online, because rumor has it he heads the largest church in America.  What I saw worried me, quite frankly.  There wasn't too much about Jesus or forgiveness or the Gospel.  Most of the content dealt with living a good, decent, capitalist life in this world.  And that's fine...but is that what should be spoken about in church?  I don't expect to come to church for self-help or goofy stories.  I come to hear the Word of God and commune with others.  The whole concept of a "mega-church" seems a little off-kilter to me, as well.  So that's up for discussion, too.  This thread is fair game. 

And of course, if we need examples/proof of some of Joel's wackier and more questionable statements, I'll be happy to provide them.  And of course, there's wackier people out there (Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, etc...) but Joel seems to be in the public eye a lot these days, and even seems to represent Christianity.  I'm a little frightened by that. 

And if this topic has already been talked to death, forgive me. 

I guess my question is, what is the neccessity of "making a statement"? If we have to show we're Christians by our tatoos or the clothes we wear, something is wrong.  I don't believe in advertising Christianity with funny, witty little sayings.  I believe the best way to show our Christianity is by our actions and our love. 

That being said, I don't know if you could consider getting a tatoo a "sin" or not...but they kind of turn me off, and I would never even consider getting one.  The whole idea seems vulgar. 

Thanks for being so welcoming.  I enjoy the occassional theological debate.  Although it's been happening more and more recently...

And here are some of the quotes I was referring to earlier, just for reference:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Spirit tells me - Fidel Castro will die - in the 90's. Oooh my! Some will try to kill him and they will not succeed. But there will come a change in his physical health, and he will not stay in power, and Cuba will be visited of God."

"The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid 90's, about '94-'95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [audience applauds] But He will not destroy it - with what many minds have thought Him to be, He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed."

"The hour is urgent. Many of you have known me for many years. But I am telling you right now, things I haven't said years 'n years 'n years ago. I believe - here this, hear this! I believe, that Jesus, God's Son, is about to appear physically, in meetings and to believers around the world, to wake us up! He appeared after His resurrection and He is about to appear before His second coming! You know a prophetess sent me a word through my wife, right here, and she said 'Tell your husband that Jesus is go'n to physically appear in his meetings.' I am expecting to see, I am telling you that - I feel it's going to happen. I, I, I'm, I'm careful in how I am saying it now, because I know the people in Kenya are listening. I know deep in my soul, something supernatural is going to happen in Nai - in Nairobi Kenya. I feel that. I may very well come back, and you and Jan are coming, to - Paul and Jan are coming to Nairobi with me, but Paul, we may very well come back with footage of Jesus on the platform! You know that the Lord appeared in Romania recently, and there's a video of it? Where the Lord appeared in the back of a church and you see him on video walking down the isle? Yeah! Paul do you remember when I came on TBN years ago and showed you a clip of the Lord appearing in our church in Orlando, on the balcony on the wall? Yeah. You, you remember that? [Paul Crouch] Very well, I saw it! [Benny Hinn] That was '80, 80 something, '86, what - whatever. You know I always wondered why the Lord, why did He do that? Do you know why, now I look back? That was the beginning of the greatest move of God in our church. Because '83, '84, and '85 were horrible years for me, horrible years. Eighty-six the blessings of God began, but they began with a - with this manifestation of the Lord's face on, on the balcony, that stayed for eight weeks. Eight solid weeks! The Lord has done this in the past, but He is about to do it again, now hear this, I am prophesying this! Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is about to appear physically in some churches, and some meetings, and to many of His people, for one reason - to tell you He is about to show up! To Wake Up! Jesus is coming saints! You have held back from the Lord in the past, don't you dare do it now. The day will come you'll stand before Him and give an answer. How dare we not give to God. How dare we hold back."

"Tell the people, I am passing by many" Hear this - "I am passing by many and if I pass by it would be as though I never knew them. I am passing by many and if I pass by it would be as though I never knew them." My friend we're all being tested right now on whether we are gonna stick with this or walk away from it. Tonight is decision night. It is not only decision night for America, for the next four years, this is decision night for eternity. What you do for God tonight, you do it with your soul, you do it with your life. This is not, my friend, just another Tel-A-Thon. This is - this may very well be the last one. Time is so short people, I'm tellin' ya, never have I sensed it - I am telling you I am speaking to you prophetically."

"Let me tell you something. The Holy Spirit has already told me He is about to show up. And you know, oh, I gotta tell you this quickly, just before we go. I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin, you know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the seventies and everything she said has happened. She just sent me a word through my wife and said the Lord spoke to her audibly and said that He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months. Yeah, she - I'm telling ya - she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said, 'Tell Benny I'm going to appear physically on the platform in his meetings'. Lord, do it in Phoenix Arizona in the name of Jesus! And in Kenya too, Lord, please, Lord, in fact, do it in every crusade. In Jesus' name."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It saddens me how people fall for this kind of stuff.  But they do.  And that's why we need to get out there and present the Gospel as clearly and as objectively as we possibly can.

We're warned about false prophets in Scripture, and asked to "test the spirits" to see if what someone is preaching is of God.  What Benny is preaching is CLEARLY not of God.  I don't know if anyone has mentioned these prophesies, but in the 90's he said God told him that Fidel Castro was going to be assassinated and the homosexual popularion would be destroyed by fire.  He said this would take place sometime in the 90's.  He's also said that Jesus has appeared physically, in the flesh, at his crusades.  He's also claimed people have been raised from the dead by being placed in front of a television set while his show was on.  Come on...

Why should we welcome him as a brother?  He's not.  Of course we can pray for him, but letting him off the hook so easily...I don't think that would be wise.  He's hijacked the term "Christian" and taken off running.  That sucks.