[IF WE WERE UNDER THE LAW]

The word increase that was used in the OT in reference to tithes was tebû'âh. This word specifically means =  income, that is, produce, fruit, gain, increase, revenue.

Please pardon my insatiable appetite for detail, and I hope you don't mind my asking, but where did you get that definition?

As we see from the explanation above it does mean income.

Would you agree that a word's use within its defining text determines which of its possible definitions actually apply? If so, then how does "income" figure into the overall picture since the "increase of..." was spoken specifically in relation to produce and animals rather than wages? Do you know of an instance where the Law demanded a tenth of one's wages if they had no fields or herds?

As I said before, the primary income of these people at that time was the things that they had raised. Let's use an example here. A certain person started out with one bushel of wheat seeds to plant for that year. Then at the end of the year, after harvest was complete, he had 101 bushels. That would make his increase (income) to be 100 bushels. Therefore his tithe would have been 10 bushels.

As I also said, most of us today do not deal in crops but in cash. So our increase is in cash, the fruit of our labor. IF WE WERE UNDER THE LAW today then we would be required to tithe our increase (income, gain, revenue) which would be whatever we had gained for that year.

But doesn't this ignore the fact that there was always currency of some sort as long as Israel existed? The towns people who had no lands or herds did indeed conduct commerce on the basis of currency, or precious metals, rather than food stuffs. How do you account for this contradiction to your statements?

Thanks for indulging my questions. 

What are we to make of these Islamists fanatics?
I understand being upset when atheist liberals are constantly taking liberties with Jesus and or Mohammad, but these people have a severe propensity for violence at the tip of a hat.

I've heard it said before that islam (small "i" was intentional) is more of a political philosophy than it is religious, even though it has within its makeup a religious dynamic. They also have no hope upon which they can trust, like we have in Christ.

Every works-based system of salvation always looks upon any criticism of its beliefs and icons as being an attack of the people in taht religion personally. Those within islam just so happen to be more violent than others. Those within mormonism also cop the martyr syndrome when anyone offers criticism of the inconsistencies in the mormonic theology.

Read what I said again. I did not say anything of that sort.

What I was after is your understanding of the Bible's definition (use) of the term "increase". Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.

Thanks

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In the OT the people were required to give a tenth of their increase for a specific purpose. Anything else they were to have given for anything else was above that, from the heart.

So, are you saying that they were required to pay a tenth of their wages as well? If so, then to whom did they hand it over? Was it the Levites? Who? My understanding of one's wages is that it is not a form of increase as the Bible defines increase. Wages are an exchange of one's labor, time and skills for money, not an increase. Now, an investment of money could fall within the biblical definition of increase, as Jesus's parable about the three servants and the coins they were given to invest. Increase from the fields, orchards, vineyards, herds and flocks were just that, an increase. When a man planted a kernel of corn, and got back 100, 500, 1000 times more than he planted, then that was an increase. When I exchange my time, labor, and skills, then it's just that, an exchange. Does that make sense?

Hello Blademan,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME!

Thank you.

As you can see, there are varying opinions about tithing. I would simply say from a New Testament perspective that giving should be cheerful and from the heart. I would say that there is no instruction to tithe in the New Testament, but I would also say that doesn't mean you shouldn't give 20 or 30 percent if the Lord has enabled you to do so and it makes you happy.

I can agree with this. I do wonder, though, as to where we are to give? For clarification, I have begun to put some things together from the scriptures. In the OT, the tithe went for meeting needs, except the portion consumed by the tither during the festival celebrations before the Lord. (I've never heard this part about the tithe taught from the pulpit, strangely enough.) In the NT, we see a continuance of that same priority reflected int he collections, which also went for the meeting of needs. What this says to me is that the primary portion of our giving should always go for the meeting of needs, and whatever we give secondarily can go wherever we so desuire, such as the support of organized religion and its facilities and lawn care. Does that make sense? We today, when giving the primary portion of our giving to our church, the largest portion of it is being absorbed by the institution itself for its own expenditures and expansion rather than the meeting of needs. Where in the Bible did God ever authorize this shift away from His clear commands and examples in His written word for us to knowingly support buildings and lawn care above the care and provsion for our fellow believers in need, and the needy in our respective communities?

[/quote]I might also add that giving should never be for bragging rights, AND much very important giving is not with money, rather with labor and volunteer work of various types. Some people don't have money to give, but that doesn't mean their offering of labor means any less than someone giving money or goods.[/quote]

Very good points. Thanks.

The actual 10% was Old Testament Mosaic Law. For today, I would say that a Christian SHOULD definitely give, but the amount and the type should be between that individual and God.

This seems plausible to me.

It certainly should NOT be for recognition, status in the community, or pride.

Well, I can say that many of our modern-day church insitutions have some pretty sophisticated architecture for buidings. What I can't help but to wonder is how many needy people went without their needs being met so that the people behind those fancy walls could enjoy that monument to their pride. I mean, some of those places are downright gawdy.

Thanks, Tom, for your reply.

[and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.]

I believe tithing started with Jacob in Genesis 28
May i qoute Genesis 28:20-22
 
  20: And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
   21: So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
   22: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
  this is a vow made by Jacod (Israel) so God is just requiring what is the vow made by israel.  so whatever your vow to give to the lord you should fulfill it.

Wow. It's been a while since I read that. I forgot all about it. Upon reading it again, I can say that I wouldn't feel comfortable teaching this one to my kids as an example, one reason being that Jacob tied a bunch of conditional strings, in verse 20, to his promise to tithe. We can see that Jacob made his tithe conditional upon God meeting his demands. I prefer to not play such games with the Lord. Jacob was very wrong on many things in his life, thus his name, which actually means "deceiver" if I remember my Sunday school lessons correctly.

In liviticus 27:30-32
30: And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's: it is holy unto the LORD.
   31: And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
   32: And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

Yes, the Law was very precise to those who were under its obligation. You know, I love how the Lord showed such tremendous compassion in His Law, and made such wondrous provision for the needy. The tithe, almost 99% of it, went for the meeting of needs, not for the upkeep of the temple or any other structure. It provided for the priests, Levites, orphans, widows and strangers in the land.

Malachi 3:7-10
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
   7: Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
   8: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
   9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
   10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Yes. Those who were under the Law had ceased to remain obedient to the commands of the Law, and the Lord had to do something. I once heard David Jeremiah teach that it was the religious leadership who was to blame for the tithe not being brought in because they were taking the best of the tithe for themselves and selling the rest, therefore getting rich rather than giving a portion of the tithe to the needy as the Law commanded. When the people saw that, they stopped beinging it in. He also said that the people's not giving was also based on their own greed, with which I would have to agree. I never did go in and verify this, but it does sound plausible.

But when you give it should come from the heart. And if you vowed a vow (you said that you give something to God) fulfill it coz' God will require you to fullfill your vow.

Very true indeed.

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Hi blademan,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

Thank you. It's great to be here.

I have a question for you in return. Where in the Bible does it say that we are not to give tithes to a local church?

Wow. That's a good question. Hmm. Well, I don't know of a place where it says that.

There is a movement going on today that is teaching against tithing to the church. While I agree that there is no commandment for us to do so, and seeing their is no commandment it is evident that their is no set amount.

Some people use the verses of the OT to say that we are not to give money. It does not say that we are not to give money although in the OT it was said to give of their increase (profits) which then was primarily food items.

Very true. I did some study on this not long ago, and it started churning in the back of my mind, so I thought I would launch out and see what others have found. I did find, like you said, that the tithe was a tenth only of the increase of the fields, orchards, vineyards, flocks and herds, not of the wages from wage earners, such as those who were hired to help harvest by the property owner, etc. According to what I read, not even Jesus was required to tithe since He had none of the things from which the tithe was to be taken, especially considering that He had nowhere to lay His head. (I wish I had my Bible software with me here at the office, but it's not allowed on this computer.So, please forgive my inability to quote all the relevant verses.)

It is also said by some that there is no proof even in the OT nor the NT that tithing was to go to a building. While I agree with this somewhat I would ask these people where they think that the House of Worships came from? After all there is ample evidence that there were many such buildings.

Another good question. Upon reflection, if I may offer this, those places were supported by a secondary portion of the people's giving rather than the primary portion, such as the tithe, considering that the tithe was food items of various sorts rather than money.

There are verses in the NT that does indicate that we are to give (tithe):

Luk 11:42  But woe to you, Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over judgment and the love of God. You ought to have done these, and not to leave the other undone.

Good point. I'm no expert on the timing of all these events, I recall that Jesus also commanded the leper to go and show himself to the priest, and then offer up burnt sacrifices according to the Law, in Matt. 8:4 (I read this just last night in my reading). So, since Jesus told a people who were still under the Law, and who were raising produce, even spices, to tithe from it, and He also told another to offer up burnt sacrifices, are we also required to do both since the burnt offering was a thank offering rather than symbolic of the price paid for our sins? (Please forgive my inability to put my questions into a more understandable form.)

In other words (if I can get this right), how do we differentiate between the command to offer up burnt sacrifices and the acknowledgment of the lawful requirement to tithe from one another when both were spoken to the Jews who were still under the Law? What line of distinction exists between the two, and how do we substantiate this line of distinction beyond question?

1Co 16:2  On the first of the sabbaths let each of you put by himself, storing up what ever he is prospered, so that there may be no collections when I come.

I thought this was a collection for the meeting of needs of the saints in Jerusalem? Is that correct?

There are quite a few instances in 2Co chapters 8 and 9 that give examples and exhortations concerning the importance of believers giving financially to God’s work.

Yes. It does cost money to run our various operations.

As for how much a person should give, we are told:

There are many other threads here that also pertain to tithing in the Old and New Testaments, the difference between them and what we should do in regards to tithing now.

I eagerly await your response to my questions, because they've been, like I said, churning in the back of my mind.

Thanks

There was some interesting input in this thread.

I do have a question, however:

Where does the word of God speak of giving a tithe to a local church like what we have today?

The OT tithe had nothing to do with money. It was food stored away for the Levites, priests, orphans, widows and strangers. So, when people talk about their tithe, what are they basing it upon? Jesus wasn't require to tithe because He had no lands nor herds from which to tithe, so where is all this stuff coming from?

In the NT, we see the collection going to, again, meet the needs of fellow believers, not for real estate and buildings.

So I guess this leads to an additional question:

Where in the Bible was there ever a change made to God's priorities in our giving, shifting away from meeting needs to supporting real estate and buildings?

I would appreciate any input that anyone could provide.

Thanks

Blademan