[Nothing is more important then loving Jesus.]

I firmly believe that denominations are a man made cult. Each take what they believe and make the most of it. Is one single Church correct? I believe not. Jesus knows the hearts, of you and Pastor Roger. I also believe that you both are brothers.

You are right on the money though......  Nothing is more important then loving Jesus.

Resting on the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Hosea 14:4 I will heal their faithlessness; I will love them freely, for My anger is turned away from [Israel].

what wrong with that thinking is

Most of the Christian marty's who gave their lives for Christ truth's than were member's of man made Cult's ?

There are many denomination's now day's that teach  cult like   teachings.
Yet  some
hold to Christ truth's.
 How does one tell?
Check all their  belief's out with Gods bible.

[Pastor Roger]

Pastor Roger's public confession is different than mine .
He may be the true  brother in Christ AND I may not be. or vice versa !perhaps we both are not. or are . Only God knows the hearts .
we as people Must go by confession .

Jesus say's if you love me you will KEEP my teaching's
John 14:23

What about Jesus teaching's on what must be for religious unity can  take place?
is that not important for loving Jesus?
================================================
Men sometimes array the Gospel against itself by urging that they “want the Gospel,” they “don’t want doctrine”; as if there could be any real Gospel which is not doctrine, or any Gospel in its totality, which does not embrace all the doctrine of the Gospel. It is as if they said: “We want nourishment; we don’t want food”; “We want warmth; but none of your fuel and clothes for us.”
Whether the laxity of the time helps men toward the extreme [of] pseudo-ecclesiasticism or the extreme of unionistic sectarianism, the beginning of the healing must be a Bible estimate of the indispensable nature of Bible doctrine.


SOME EXCERPTS FROM THE WRITINGS OF


CHARLES PORTERFIELD KRAUTH

Pocket,

His name is Pastor Roger, not, pastor rodger. Just because you disagree with Pastor Roger, doesn't make him anyless a brother, in Christ.

God knows Pastor Rogers heart, as he knows my heart. I am proud, to call Pastor Roger a brother in Christ.

1 John 2:11  But he who hates (detests, despises) his brother [ in Christ] is in darkness and walking (living) in the dark; he is straying and does not perceive or know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.
1 John 4:20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates (detests, abominates) his brother [ in Christ], he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, Whom he has not seen.

Resting in the hands, of the Lord.
Bob

Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus (the Messiah) have crucified the flesh (the godless human nature) with its passions and appetites and desires.

correction on pastor Roger's name and  more information on the why of it.

scripture is not subject to how many agree with it.
The people who responded are all wrong ,scripture is correct.
Pastor Roger's you all like.
 He tells you what you want to hear.
But I believe the truth is

Only God knows who are in his true church--- not any of you or me or pastor Roger's.

People must go by peoples confession's all of them.
That is why You will not see pastor's of my christian confession
agreeing with pastor Roger's unionistic views.
 
You would never here one of my pastor's call him a brother in Christ unless he confessed All that they have confessed.
 "Nor would you here them say he was not a brother in Christ". They simply do not know.

Only God see's the heart.

We people are not God we must go by another person's confession.
Does pastor roger's say. He believe's what me and my pastor's what we believe ?

 He does not. (his confession appears to be  unionism at the exspence of  what we believe is Christ's doctrine's)

Pastor's Rogers fruit is easy to Judge since he is a pastor.

a pastor's fruit is what he teaches and preaches .
his fruit to me screams of  unionism at the cost of what we believe  God really teaches in the bible.

Pastor Roger's teaches Some of Gods teachings are unneccesary for unity  .
We believe every thing God teaches is not only neccesary but important for our salvation and also for true unity to take place.

We believe
If the devil cause compromises in just one truth of Gods word.
the devil than  is that must closer in getting us to compromise this truth .
That we are saved by Gods grace alone  through faith in Christ Jesus merit's alone.

I think, Pockets, that you place an undue importance on denominational doctrine. All that really matters is the core truth of what Scripture teaches and what is taught of Christ. The most important facts of Christ: He is God, first and foremost. He came to this world over 2000 years ago, born of the virgin Mary, whom was God's chosen vessel, His handmaiden, as she herself said, no more, no less. That Christ lived a sinless life. That Christ died upon the cross and therefore paid the penalty for all sins, past, present, and future, and that this sacrifice is sufficient for all humanity. That Jesus Christ laid in the tomb three days and then rose again on the third day, thus proving His power over death and death's master, the enemy. That Christ is even now at the Father's right hand, preparing a place for all those who now or who will love Him. And that Christ has sent the Spirit to assist all His children, the Christians.
Other things are open to individual interpretation. These are the only truths which are necessary to be held for salvation, and the truths upon which the church must unite.

you are kinda  saying.  God sure waisted his time authoring
the rest of the bible that tell us many other truth's  that are important to one's salvation. If they were not important for us to know for our salvation God would not have wrote all those extra thing's . He would have had you simply write the above your summary  .
Since that is all you think is important for ones salvation.

 i can certainly now see by your example why their must be division because I think every doctrine is important for ones salvation or God would not have authored so much more than you tell.

division is grand is it not ! Imagine if i was in your church
I think you would be grabbing me by the throat by now.

Gods blessing's

pocket,

This is the third thread on this subject. Please keep it all in one thread and do not keep opening up new threads for the same subject.


moderator

i Saw this  as a some what different subject.
Pastor Roger's

If  you and other christians  really wanted to unite with us .
Which by the way you and they  really and honestly do not !
Unless of course , we xxxxxxxxxxx were willing to unite under their and your  term's .
which mean's we would have to be the ones  that compromised what  we believe are
fundamental biblical truth's Important to our salvation .
 Now like i said "if you honestly" wanted to unite with us.
So be it ! Than you must agree 100 percent with our xxxxxxx confession's
every one of them!And be willing to take a oath unto death for them like we do.
You can find them here and study them! as if you would .Huh!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Unless youi are willing to do that. Your really just trying to pull the wool cap over our eye's.
You are realy telling us a half truth a lie really.
what your realy saying is you   xxxxxxxxxxxxxx give up your beliefs for the sake of uniting with us in our's. Compromise your faith
Well (modified to remove indication to foul language) that my not so friend.
but clever enamie.

Pastor You seem angry that I am aware .That most people belief's have been formed or "misinformed" by  clergy
of many different denomination's or nondenominational churches.

and that it is "sin " when one knows that certain denomination's are teaching in error not to alert other's.

You call it bashing Thats a fair ward  . And you imply I am sinner.
well you certainly are right on target again.

I suppose one could call alerting people to the harmful
cigarett brands that have been Known to cause cancer  as bashing these brand's . AND IF you thought their  were safe cigarett brands that were not known to cause cancer you would keep
it to your self.



well sir  you are a much better person than me.
but a old  rascal like me just cant' help but telling people
about

 a few safe places  where  Gods word

is respected and taught .
place's  where any critical views  of the bible are  rejected .



God's blessing's

Would you want some one else  raising your child ?
Some one who loved to teach youngster's to cuss
some one who loved to teach youngster to lie and cheat .
Most would not . They would rather raise them according to better values in their own family. Yet they realize all children
raised in bad homes may stiil inspite of the bad home be good kid's .And they hopefuly would invite that kid over to their home and family rather than having their child be under the bad influcence of the bad  home.
 

It is the same with denomination's some denomination's no longer teach what God want's them to teach. Would you want your child brought up that way?No. yet you realize because of the bible their will be believer's raised in bad denomination's.
And  you  want any member of that  bad teaching denomination ,to come to your church where they could hear God's truth. Sure you would .
Yet  you would not want to go to their church because the teaching's did not hold to the bible would offend you, or even may intice you into wrong thinking.
So division though not desirable is the only Godly option.
You would want them to go to your bible study's, that up held Gods word .And you would want them to  be lead in prayer by your bible believing pastor not their's .And also to worship at your church .



 if every one taught God's word correctly their would no longer be a need for division. Except for those who refused to believe it and wanted to change the teaching to their way of thinking.


Dr xxxxxx put it most brilliantly this way . He firmly believed this.


here is a trust worthy quote .

"IAM not concerned  with life but with doctrines. Evil life does no great harm except to it self! But evil teaching is the most
pernicious thing on earth, for it leads hosts of souls to hell. weather you are good or bad does not concern me. But I will attack your poisonous  and lying teaching, which contradicts
God's word: and with Gods help  I will oppose it vigorously"

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

You see
EVIL Life only hurt's it self when it comes to where one will spend eternity but evil teaching can be most deadly to those that hear it  and do not know or are not sure  it's wrong.
And those who know it's wrong should be thinking of those that are not sure . And stay away from it as a good clear example. Or make it clear to every one that it is wrong teaching and they should not believe it.
God's blessing's

Once again i must disagree with you.
the name "denominational " is  what men used for naming
all  different church's in the christian church because of the  doctrine's.

The problem is not the name denominational the problem is with each individual who do not bother to check out with scripture which denomination believes scripture .
here are two different denomination's with the same general name. Which one is inline with scripture. Using scripture you
tell me.
Link Removed - Denomination Promotion and Denominatoin Bashing

 men called our great 3 in one God the Trinity . there is nothing wrong with men giving thing's name's. You will not fing the name Trinity in the bible but that does not make the word Trinity describing God  wrong .
there would be nothing wrong at all with all the different denomination's if they all believed the bible . So the problem is not the name but the teachings do they agree with the bible ? If  all do not . than it is well with God that they  divide .
because God's teaching's divide ---------the sheep from the Goat's!
or the chaff from the wheat! If the fences have open gate's
sheep and goat's get to gether.
so what's wrong with that?
Jesus say's a little leaven leaven the whole loaf.
We might in to day's language say a bad spot in a aplle will ruin the whole apple. Or a bad apple will spoil all the apples
that come in contact with it.

Jesus is talking about just a little wrong doctrine that destroy's his believer's in his true doctrine's

The perfect  sermon of the law no man has ever kept perfectly.

As one reads Jesus sermon a person certainly see's their sin's .Their sin's in thought word and deed of action's against this sermon  and their sin's of failing in all times and places of not  doing what this sermon say's .

this sermon brings us to our knees if we look at it rightly.
we see our failing's. We see we should not be concidered blessed at all.
We all have hauhty hearts we certainly not alway's have been peace maker's. In our homes or away from our homes .

We look to the real peace maker Jesus who made peace with us and God the Father by his perfect life and innocent death in our sinful stead. And with this trust in Jesus: God concider's Jesus "perfect work's of good " our work's and his death for our sin"s .Our death for our sin's.
for Jesus sake who died for us. God see's us as the blessed!
 With out  Jesus doing what he did for us .This perfect  sermon of law damns every one of us to Hell.
Thank God for Jesus.

agreed upon Doctrine's
is what makes a denomination a denomination
not a name a church body goes by.

For example one should never concider one baptist chuch in kansas where the preacher's message to the public  is ;God hates fags. To be part of the denomination Known as southern baptist which is the largest protestant denomination in America  with around 20 million member's .In fact that
God hates fags main message  church as far as i can tell  is not  a member of any known  baptist denomination; nor can i find they claim any.. They are not  Primitive baptist's or Southern baptist's or American baptist's .perhaps it would be fairest to concider them a denomination unto them selves.

One should keep in mind  their are no laws that forbid
 a church body from using the name baptist or lutheran or methodist.
Any one can start a church body and go under such general names no matter how far from the others of  that general  name they may believe.

So when we concider denomination's now day's we must concider what type of baptist or lutheran or methosist or even nondenominational Church body they are .
Meaning what are their doctrine's what are their teaching's.
"All of them."

do they believe in  the whole truth? of Gods word or do they
not.

And I obviously disagree that one can not have the whole truth. Since God say's they can . What does he say?
does he not say

My word is truth!

and has God not given the bible to all?
So their is no excuse any of us can have for not having the whole truth and absoulute truth; Given to all in his Scriptures.

Where the problem lies is with us not God's Scripture's . Do we believe it?

 Any denomination has the whole truth if they have the Holy  Bible .
But is their teachings  in agreement as  scriptures set forth what is to be believed.

And none of us can live or practice the bible perfectly even if we believe it's truth's .
Thank God Jesus has lived it perfectly for us.




 

while it is true that Christ alone is our salvation, Scripture nowhere gives us the right to set aside one word of its clearly revealed truth anywhere. Nowhere does Scripture advocate the theology of the least common denominator--let's just agree on those things we can all agree on. If we allow people to set aside plain Scripture anywhere, it won't be long before even those basic truths by which we are saved will be questioned. All you have to do is look around you at the current scene in Christian church or unorthodox denomination's for proof of this fact. Every single teaching of Scripture, from the 6 natural day's of Creation to the final Resurrection--including what Christ did on the cross for us--has been questioned and set aside by those who felt they could let the plain Scriptures go. I don't know at what point faith becomes compromised and finally shipwrecked. But I don't want to find out.

  as it is written Ps. 119, 105: Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. And St. Paul: Though an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you, let him be accursed, Gal. 1, 8.

quote

No, you wouldn't be the dumbest Christian if you said your denomination didn't have the whole Truth.  You would be a person seeking the Truth.  Many people have their hearts pricked in whatever denomination they're in.  Something just doesn't feel right to them.  Then, there are those who believe what they've been taught to be the Truth, even though it might not be.  They really don't research for themselves.

every denomination has the whole truth all they have to do is read it and believe it God never has demanded we have to understand His word .

xxxxxx held that if reason could understand the truths of the Gospel, faith would be unnecessary.

If men could come to faith by the use of their rational faculties, then there would be no need of the Holy Ghost

    The conviction and the confidence which is the essence of the Christian faith is not an intellectual and emotional position which a man chooses for himself and by his own power. We believe, rather, according to the working of the almighty power of God. Nor is faith the final stage to which a man comes after a long-drawn-out process of reasoning, in which he is finally persuaded that now at last he can rest his heart in the sufficiency of the evidence. It is much rather a stepping out into the darkness, where there is no “proof” in the ordinary sense of the term, but only a word of the Lord which is infinitely better and more certain than all the rational proofs in the world. Faith is something done to us rather than by us.
xxxxxx warns against the faith which is the work of man. He calls it a “manufactured faith” and an “imagined faith” True faith is complete trust of the heart in Christ and is kindled alone by Christ. Such faith does not come out of our own preparation, but when the Word of God is preached openly and clearly, it begins to grow by itself.


. All the articles of our faith are so difficult and so high that no man can hold fast to them without the grace of the Holy Spirit. Take any article of faith and hold fast to it with reason, and you will retain nothing of it . The Holy Ghost must be Master and Teacher, or nothing will come of it.    

for reason twists Scripture according to its pleasure.

Welcome pocket!  I'll answer your question with a question: If as believers we cannot unite, how then can we as believers be Christians?  Agreeing to disagree is key.  It is important to remember that in Heaven, there will be Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, Apostolics, Non-Denominationalists, Pre,Mid,Post-Trib-Mil Calvinists, Dispensationalists, Covenant Theologians and the like.  In Hell, there will be Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, Apostolics, Non-Denominationalists, Pre,Mid,Post-Trib-Mil Calvinists, Dispensationalists, Covenant Theologians as well.  Point being, our unity is not comprised of our agreement of lesser doctrinal belief or understanding.  Our unity, is in Christ, and Him crucified.  And with any who claim Him and are claimed by Him, I am unified.  I don't strive for a unity that the Spirit provides.  I strive to produce disunity in its place when I divide over issues that when we all get to Heaven I'll find out I didn't understand completely anyway.  

\

we Would should never agree to disagree  For Jesus prayed for unity not compromise.

We never chose the name xxxxxxxxxx  it was given to us.
 so Why am i a  xxxxxxxxxx.

 

·        The xxxxxxxxxx Church Proclaims the Message of Forgiveness in Christ to Believers.  

 

We need assurance of forgiveness to have a relationship with God.  Without that assurance, we will either attempt to flee from God by blocking Him out of our minds, or we will develop a small, false view of Him that will not threaten us.  As Isaiah found out, the only way we can stand in God’s presence is with the assurance that God has taken care of our sins.

 

God promised Adam and Eve that a Savior would come to redeem them from their sin.  This promise was spread through generations of believers until the nation of Israel was commanded to establish blood sacrifices for sin.  These sacrifices were merely a reminder of what was to come:  A living Savior.  These sacrifices were for all sin, even the believers, not just for people at the time of their conversion.  

 

Christ’s death ended the repetition of sacrifices for our sins with a once for all event.  But, the human heart has not changed, and forgiveness still needs to be declared on a regular basis to us, even as it was proclaimed to believers before the time of Christ.

 

In many churches, forgiveness is only proclaimed at the time of someone’s conversion or when someone specifically confesses to a certain sinful act.  But, I am always in need of forgiveness not only for my sins, but because I am a sinner.  In   xxxxxxxx churches, the consistant emphasis on forgiveness should encourage a fellowship on the basis of the forgiveness in Christ.

 

·        In the xxxxxxx Church, the Law and Gospel are Presented in Balance.

 

The themes of law and gospel run throughout the Bible.  xxxxxx and xxxxxxxxx theologians clearly teach the correct handling of the Bible using these truths.  

 

Those who say that a personal relationship with Christ will automatically create this balance do not grasp the greatness of Christ.  He is the perfect and holy God.  His perfection bears down upon our conscience through His amazing creation, through His example of how a life could be sinlessly lived, through His work in other believers who are gifted and strong in areas where we are weak, through His convicting Holy Spirit, and through the preaching and reading of His word.  

 

The depth of mankind’s fall into sin needs to be considered, also.  Job had a very good relationship with God, but when the devil created terrible conditions for him, he questioned God’s goodness.  If we were to be pushed beyond a point, our pride would cause us to sin by questioning God’s goodness, also.  Christ’s holiness and our depravity will combine to drive us from Him or cause us to set up barriers between Him and us if the presentation of the law is not balanced with the gospel of forgiveness.

 

·        In the xxxxxxxxxxx Church, Salvation is Presented as More than Conversion.

 

We believe that a person who is living a life in rebellion and in hatred to God needs to be converted to a life of love for God.  However, to many churches with a non-xxxxxxxx theology, salvation means only a conversion experience and the gospel only means the invitation to accept Christ.  The xxxxxxx church teaches a deeper meaning of these terms.  Gospel is any message of forgiveness in Christ, and salvation is a life lived in the forgiveness of the cross (the gospel).  

 

·        In the xxxxxxxxxx Church, a Scriptural Plan is Presented for Teaching our Little Children Salvation.  

 

In many churches, salvation can only be obtained when the mind is capable of intellectually comprehending the spoken message and the will is in sufficient control to be able to yield itself to that message.  Because of this view and the Bible’s teaching that even little children have a sinful nature, they have great difficulty in understanding their young children’s relationship to God.

 

Since a xxxxxxxx can believe that salvation is more than just conversion, and is a life lived in the forgiveness of the cross, it is not hard to believe that this forgiveness and salvation can extend to children.  A child may hear the name of Jesus, the savior, even before he is born while his mother is carrying him.  After he is born, he can be brought to baptism to receive the forgiveness offered there.  As he is being brought up, he can be taught how Jesus wants him to live and how to talk to and listen to Jesus (the law) and that Jesus forgives him when he sins (the gospel).   Parents can provide imperfect role models of the demands and forgiveness of God.  I believe all these examples illustrate part of the great commission of making disciples by baptizing and teaching a life of salvation.  

 

·        The xxxxxxxxxx Church Gives the Correct Meaning to the Sacraments.

 

The Bible regularly speaks of baptism and communion in connection with forgiveness of sin.  Because we can put on Christ through these sacraments, then God sees us as if we had never sinned.  To those of other theologies who believe salvation is only conversion, they will not be able to understand how someone could receive salvation through these acts.  But to us who see salvation as a life lived in the forgiveness of the cross, they are another means to receive this gift.  

 

·        Epilogue

 

Even though important differences exist between the xxxxxxx church and other churches mentioned above, I appreciate what I gain by associating with those churches and their members.  I owe so much to the xxxxxxxxx church, but it is sad to see how masses of xxxxxxxxx worldwide are ignoring the great spiritual resources available to them in the xxxxxxx faith.  Let’s pray that all xxxxxxx church's returns to sound doctrine and practice.

Is it not odd that confessional xxxxxxx pastor's in sweden through the years have alway's preached that homosexuals will not go to heaven and are still teaching this bible truth in sermon's and in catechism classes  . And had no problem with the swedish officials over this.
But all of a sudden now their is a problem because of one
AOG preacher.
Could it possably be the way he went about it. Broadcasting it to the media trying to embaraess sweden it self over this.
drawing attention to himself as if God needed him as his spokes men to sweden.
Yet to this very day xxxxxxx pastors in sermon's and catechism class have no problem with the swedish government teaching the truth of Gods word  homosexuality is sin. this AOG preacher
Kind of reminds me of a another preacher here in America who beats his own chest also with  the slogan that made him famous in the media  "God hates fag's"
well if one reads just  law God  certainly does hate the homosexual or any other sinner as well that includes us all.
But the law came through moses grace and truth came through Jesus Christ!

Because of God's plan God took out his  rightful  hate for us sinner's on Jesus .We are now free from the curse of the law we are now set free to  live as God want's us to out of thankfulness to Christ and by his power alone ..
 did these two preacher's  not know God bound us "all "over to  bondage of sin death and the devil
so that God  could have mercy on us all in Christ!

 Perhaps these two preacher's need to learn about Gods sovernty and how rightly to divide Gods laws and Gods   gospel.

As I was riding train this morning, commuting to work (praying about the London train bombings, among other things…) I confused me.  (Reba, Cris and others understand this is a common occurrence for someone who regularly “kills himself” with his foolish jokes…)

I asked the Lord to walk with me in one breath, and in the next breath I asked for strength to walk with the Lord.  

Bear with me, here:

Much of my early rearing was on a west Texas ranch, and the very first wages I ever earned were as a ‘cowboy’.  A cowboy knows two kinds of “herding”:  ‘Day herding’ and ‘roundup’.  Day herding takes place when new cattle are introduced to the ranch.  They are always restless and have a tendency to roam fence lines rather than relaxing and becoming acquainted with their new surroundings.  “Day herding” is the act of sitting on your horse and keeping the cattle from moving so they will become calm and used to their surroundings.  Roundup is the opposite of day herding.  It is the act of rousting the cattle and moving them from one place to another for their own good (giving them medicine, moving them to better grass and water, etc.)

The Lord is our Shepherd (cowboy).  Sometimes he ‘day herds’ (walks with us) and sometimes he does a ‘roundup’ (we must walk with Him).  

How do we know when to pray for which?  On the surface they sound almost the same – but in practice, they are almost opposite.  How do we know when to recognize Jesus’ intent to let us rest in Him as opposed to when the Lord intends for us to move under His direction?  I would expect to find some of these answers in Proverbs, Ecclesiastes or Psalms; but a short search revealed nothing that REALLY jumped out at me.  

You texan's are Luky fellow's with fences and all.
our outfit put up some with real shiny pretty  barbs and all.The elk sure enjoyed its company why it lasted
which was not long.Tried putting some just elbow high to a low horse to.But the problem has been pretty well solved now day's.Cattle and cowboy's no longer welcome in much of the
wild wild Mountain west.